Is There Such a Thing as a Biblical Feminist?

[SkyWriting]

In the #MeToo thread it became apparent that several of our believing sisters regard themselves as feminists.

Each person travels a different road to Jesus.
Treat all others the same as you.

 

[AlexDTX]

Feminism, in pop culture, has a rather ambiguous meaning. People read into the name, whatever they want Feminism to be.

If you take Feminism to be that Women has as much moral, and divine value, as men, that they are not property, and not slaves, and have dignity and respect as a man does.... then yes a Feminist can be a Christian.

But if you define Feminism as being what we see in the Feminist groups, and Feminist manifesto, then it is not possible for a Feminist to be a Christian.

I'm not going to list every single Feminist web site, but I'll post just one, as a basic reference.
Mina Loy, "Feminist Manifesto"

A real Feminist believes that sexual freedom is key to their own identity.

A Christian believes in purity before G-d.

A Feminist believes that Virtue itself is a fictional value.

A Christian believes in devotion to her family, which includes her husband.

A Feminist believes such devotion are outdated, and holding her back.

A Feminist believes it isn't good enough to have organizations exclusively for women, but rather that they need to eliminate organizations exclusively for men.

For example, it's not good enough to have a women only organization dedicated to raising girls to become wonderful women, called the girl scouts.

No, they have to eliminate a men only organization dedicated to raising good men, by making the boy scouts into the "Scouts".

Boy Scouts Changing Name To 'Scouts BSA,' As Girls Welcomed Into Program

The truth is most women that claim to be Christian Feminists, either don't really know what Feminism stands for, or they don't know what being a Christian is really about. Because the two are completely compatible.

Thank you thank you thank you. This is the kind of answer I am looking for. In your answer there are nuggets of truth that can be used to define a biblical feminist.

I am surprised at how many comments there are and I am working my way down the list. However, one thing I have yet to see mentioned is the matter of love. Secular feminists seem to hate men. And if a Christian woman considers her self a biblical feminist and has the same scorn for men, I would not call her a biblical feminist.

Paul Stokey summed up what a biblical marriage is in his Wedding Song: There is Love. "Woman draws her life from man and gives it back again" does not mean she has no life without a man, but that there is a circular flow of spiritual life between a godly husband and wife.

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[SkyWriting]

Thank you thank you thank you. This is the kind of answer I am looking for. In your answer there are nuggets of truth that can be used to define a biblical feminist.

I am surprised at how many comments there are and I am working my way down the list. However, one thing I have yet to see mentioned is the matter of love. Secular feminists seem to hate men. And if a Christian woman considers her self a biblical feminist and has the same scorn for men, I would not call her a biblical feminist.

Paul Stokey summed up what a biblical marriage is in his Wedding Song: There is Love. "Woman draws her life from man and gives it back again" does not mean she has no life without a man, but that there is a circular flow of spiritual life between a godly husband and wife.

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In Jesus there is no male or female.
If you should show love for women
you may even see it in return.

Women being called to be different from men
in scripture is a myth men enjoy.
I happen to enjoy cooking and washing clothes.

 

[AlexDTX]

This feminist believes that sexual freedom (defined as the absence of any sexual coercion) is inherent to her dignity as a child of God.

This feminist believes that virtue is found in pursuing vocation with integrity (including the common Christian vocation to faith, hope and love), but that personal vocation is particular to each person and that we shouldn't pigeonhole women into particular roles based on our biology.

This feminist believes that social organisations which are exclusive of women work to our disadvantage, and should be opened to all.

Believing in the inherent equality, worth, dignity and value of women is not incompatible with Christianity. Rather it flows naturally from the gospel.

Agreed. As I mentioned to Andrew, agape love is a singular difference between secular feminists and biblical feminists. Too many pagan women hate men and that is one motive for being a feminist.

 

[AlexDTX]

Go look up feminist p-hats are.

I did not know this. This article says feminists are ditching the hats because they do not include trans-genders which means feminists are not about women, but the sexual culture. Very bizarre.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE="Andrew77, post: 72636551, member: 406955"]I already posted several examples of where Feminist ideology differ from Biblical ideology. I also posted directly from the feminist manifesto, as proof of my claims.

You are asking questions that are not valid. Roles for men and women are different. And the idea that saying we can't have men only organizations, but we can have women only organizations, because of equality, is also incorrect.

There is nothing 'unequal' about saying we want a place to teach boys how to be men. Or unequal in having a place that teaches girls how to be women.

By the way, girls that go to girl only schools, routinely do better than girls that go to mixed gender schools. So are feminist really interested in what is best for women, or not?[/QUOTE
==========================================
Most feminists don't (can't) care. If there is a Biblical woman who claims the title of feminist, I would think it more accurate to drop that title in favor of something without the worldly connotations associated with it in order not to perpetrate things harmful to everyone just by association with the worldly/carnal feminists-ism (most people's ideas about something).

 

[Micah888]

I believe there is still some overlap between feminine rights from God and some that are demanded in the secular arena,

Speaking of feminine rights from God, the greatest *right* for women is that Christian men are to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, and gave Himself for it. That is a very high expectation, and it could solve any feminist issues. At the same times wives are to be in subjection to their own husbands, as the Church is subject to Christ.

What Christians may not be hearing is that the Christian marriage is supposed to be a type of Christ and His Wife (the Church), and this was already presented in the creation of Eve and her marriage to Adam.

 

[AlexDTX]

There is a hierarchy in Heaven, and God created hierarchy on Earth. However, generally speaking, ever since the fall we can see the effects of sin to hierarchy on Earth.

The hierarchy in heaven is with the angels who are servants, not children of God. And because of the fall there is hierarchy but I don't believe its created by God, but by man. What is created by God is order, which is not the hierarchy we understand today.

I think the Biblical texts on marriage by way of a modern application can speak To (not for) the feminist movement, however the movement as a whole (mostly like exceptions within) does not really care what the Scriptures have to say on the matter

Agreed, and well stated. This is what I am looking for. Where the Bible speaks to (not for) the feminist movement.

it all depends on how "feminism" is defined, however if it has to be re-defined to fit into a Biblical worldview, then no absolutely not.

Yes, this is what I want to accomplish with this thread: create a definition of biblical feminism that men can understand in seeing the difference from the secular movement. The secular movement was not created to make women more wholesome but to create further division.

to it's credit the movement has made a number of positive contributions, despite in my fallible estimation it has become more negative and less positive as a whole.

I agree. Voting is one example, although as I said elsewhere, the motive for giving women the vote was the same as giving illegals a vote. But it has a positive side. Indeed, despite what Hillary believes, Trump won because of women, too.

One of the downfall effects as I see it, is the unwillingness of so many men to step up to the plate and the reluctance to be leaders where leaders are needed. I think there is a trend of men being less and less responsible, after all why should we lead, if feminists are so eager to fill the role? So it has complicated things in the process.

Bingo. Many men no longer step up to the plate and bat for their families. I speak of non believers more than believers. There are many godly men still standing up for their families and fulfilling their roles. But frankly, the powers behind the feminist movement don't really care about the Church.

 

[AlexDTX]

It seems in the face of that that it should be offensive to any christian should think that one race should serve another, or that one gender should serve another.

Ok...? Did I ever suggest otherwise? Quote where I said anything opposite of that. I never did. What does this have to do with anything on this thread, or anything I said?

I thought your first comment was outstanding, Andrew. I don't think they are reading that first. As I understand you, you are saying that secular feminist ideology has no place in the Christian woman's life in the sense that it tends to be hostile to men in general more than just standing ground for women. This is why I am seeking clarification through the conversation. Thank you again for your input. I stand against the agenda of secular feminism, but I stand for the God given rights of women.

 

[AlexDTX]

In Jesus there is no male or female.
If you should show love for women
you may even see it in return.

Women being called to be different from men
in scripture is a myth men enjoy.
I happen to enjoy cooking and washing clothes.

I disagree with your statement. There are obvious differences. Your allusion to neither male nor female does not mean there are no differences, only that Christ accepts all people into his kingdom equally if they believe in what he did. You are taking that out of context.

Also, the feminist movement has driven women into combat for which they are not designed by God to do. Although one woman at a Bible study once said she could kill if it is the right time of month! Otherwise, women are created to nurture and raise children, whereas men are stronger and more hard hearted thus more capable of fighting in combat.

By the way, I cook and wash clothes, too. It is just a task. So, I agree that there is a wide latitude of overlap in tasks that men and women can share. My wife, on the other hand is sharp as a tack when it comes to finances, so she manages our finances.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What Christians may not be hearing is that the Christian marriage is supposed to be a type of Christ

To pursue the Life of Christ as His Word Says,
and
For a much much much longer time /discussion / later (as Yahweh permits or orchestrates/ accomplishes) ,

see in all Scripture what Jesus told all the disciples (men, women and children),
and
what Yahweh Says Jesus had [true] expectations of (knowing all that would happen),
and
what Yahweh's Word Says the disciples following Jesus could expect.

Particularly, look and search and search more to see if Yahweh told Jesus or any disciple that they could expect in their lives ot have any "right(s)",
particularly in reference also to what Jesus did with any possible "rights" He had as the Son of God. I am almost certain all of His Life on earth Jesus laid aside any and all "rights" men might say that He had or deserved,
as verified always by Yahweh's Word concerning His Life on earth among men (even disciples following Him).

 

[AlexDTX]

QUOTE="Andrew77, post: 72636551, member: 406955"]I already posted several examples of where Feminist ideology differ from Biblical ideology. I also posted directly from the feminist manifesto, as proof of my claims.

You are asking questions that are not valid. Roles for men and women are different. And the idea that saying we can't have men only organizations, but we can have women only organizations, because of equality, is also incorrect.

There is nothing 'unequal' about saying we want a place to teach boys how to be men. Or unequal in having a place that teaches girls how to be women.

By the way, girls that go to girl only schools, routinely do better than girls that go to mixed gender schools. So are feminist really interested in what is best for women, or not?[/QUOTE
==========================================
Most feminists don't (can't) care. If there is a Biblical woman who claims the title of feminist, I would think it more accurate to drop that title in favor of something without the worldly connotations associated with it in order not to perpetrate things harmful to everyone just by association with the worldly/carnal feminists-ism (most people's ideas about something).

I agree, most secular feminists could care less about the Church. I created this thread because there are female believers on this site who see themselves as feminists, hence the need for clarification. I used the term, "biblical femininity" instead to avoid the carnal connotations.

 

[archer75]

I have to say, @AlexDTX, I know many women who would call themselves "feminists" and are not religious...and although I know the attitude you mean, none of them "hate men".

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Perhaps defining what a masculinist would help to define a feminist. A masculinist bows to the throne of masculinity instead of the throne of the risen Lord. A feminist would be someone who bows at the feet of feminine throne rather than God's throne. So either way to call oneself anything but a new creation in Christ for any believer is oxymoron.

 

[AlexDTX]

It was you, I believe, who raised the scouts as an example, and I can't for the life of me see why they should be a single-sex organisation (although I'm sure I remember that changing when I was a child, so the idea that it's a new issue confuses me slightly).

There are many good reasons. Men don't think like women and women don't think like men. So a separate boys organization such as the Scouts helped boys what it means to be a godly man (assuming it is lead correctly) likewise for girls. The obvious biological issues remain. Girls are embarrassed when their time of month begins and don't want boys to know about it. Separation has its place.

But when I talked about power in social institutions I was thinking of things like gentlemen's clubs, (not the sordid sort, but the sort where men in power go to network with other men in power, and exclude women). I was also thinking of the under-representation of women at the top levels of almost every institution in society.

.

I love what you have to say, but I disagree here. Until Christ returns men will always rule the world. It ain't going to change. Men dominate the world and always will. Women have never ruled the world, except for, perhaps, the Amazons. I do not say this is God ordained, but reality because men are stronger than women. That is the plain truth.

 

[AlexDTX]

I'm not sure what you mean by "biblical femininity".

I used that term because feminism has a strong secular connotation that is contrary to Christianity.

I believe that men, women, boys and girls have the right to be who God created them to be, and to do whatever he calls them to. And if those roles aren't the traditional ones society believes that gender should have; too bad. So yes, men can be nurses, midwives, ballet dancers, cooks and so on, and women can go out to work as plumbers, truck drivers, teachers, judges, doctors - and even ministers/vicars, if that is what God calls them to do

This is an area of the overlap that I am addressing. My wife is better with finances than I am so she controls the accounts. That could be viewed as a feminist position in switching roles, but biblical woman hood is not defined by roles, in my opinion. Rather it is her godly make up.

For some (not you) to say there is no difference between men and women ignores 1 Cor. 12 about the differences in the body of Christ for both men and women. One might be a prophet another an administrator. That is not a gender statement but giftings. Prophets can be either men or women.

So I am seeking a definition on what biblical feminism means. So far Paidiske from Australia has given some of the best answers.

 

[AlexDTX]

I am a feminist. My particular feminist issues are:

• domestic violence
• child sexual abuse
• sexual misconduct in the workplace
• rape
• fair representative in all domains of society. I do not expect to be lauded over and given preferential treatment but I do expect the best person to win positions whether in work, politics, or religion. If I'm more intelligent, qualified, skilled etc then simply possessing a penis shouldn't win you the job and that goes for religious leadership as well.

My feminist concerns aren't limited to my own comfortable world but to other regions where women suffer daily indignation resulting in:

• child brides
• slavery
• prostitution
• female genital mutilation
• stoning
• honour killings
• and a myriad of very basic rights including voting, being able to drive a car, or going out in public alone.

My feminist concerns in my opinion are in keeping with most religions albeit one might define them secular. But these secular concerns are root issues that should be embedded at the core of religion as well because they amount to basic human rights.

Very well said. Thank you. I think we all agree on your list as being basic human dignity.

 

[SkyWriting]

I disagree with your statement. There are obvious differences. Your allusion to neither male nor female does not mean there are no differences, only that Christ accepts all people into his kingdom equally if they believe in what he did. You are taking that out of context.

Also, the feminist movement has driven women into combat for which they are not designed by God to do. Although one woman at a Bible study once said she could kill if it is the right time of month! Otherwise, women are created to nurture and raise children, whereas men are stronger and more hard hearted thus more capable of fighting in combat.

By the way, I cook and wash clothes, too. It is just a task. So, I agree that there is a wide latitude of overlap in tasks that men and women can share. My wife, on the other hand is sharp as a tack when it comes to finances, so she manages our finances.

I appreciate the (obvious) differences in men and women,
but God is Spirit and none of that bunk about raising children
or combat roles has any significance to God.

A friend of mine was born with spinal cancer and she lived
her life paralyzed in a wheelchair able to move only one arm.

Did God define her role as a woman? No. I've known guys
in the same situation. God has no defined roles for people.
At least none that humans can influence. Oh, and she was Jewish.

27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
Galatians 6:15
Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.

 

[SkyWriting]

Your allusion to neither male nor female does not mean there are no differences, only that Christ accepts all people into his kingdom equally if they believe in what he did.

That was my point, you see differences with your human eyeballs.
But Jesus sees only the soul and no physical differences of any kind.