Is there salvation without Mary?

[Abaxvahl]

There are no Scriptures that show that Mary or the Saints have any influence on us, or that we should pay any regard to them at all. They are mere human beings who are dead in the grave and their spirits are totally separate from our material world.

"Our material world," on the contrary man walks on Earth and in Heaven, we have a body, soul, and spirit, and the world is not divided this way. Otherwise how could angels serve us or appear to us, or when the mind of the soul is opened people see angels, or Jesus speak to Moses and Elijah, or His divine light be seen then, or Samuel be raised to condemn, or St. Paul judge a case in the spirit, and so on? This is a non-Scriptural severing of the one Universe God made, not to mention it divides the Body of Christ.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

"Our material world," on the contrary man walks on Earth and in Heaven, we have a body, soul, and spirit, and the world is not divided this way. Otherwise how could angels serve us or appear to us, or when the mind of the soul is opened people see angels, or Jesus speak to Moses and Elijah, or His divine light be seen then, or Samuel be raised to condemn, or St. Paul judge a case in the spirit, and so on? This is a non-Scriptural severing of the one Universe God made, not to mention it divides the Body of Christ.

That is New Age spiritualism. The genuine Christ is justified by faith in Christ and walks by faith and not by sight. All this cosmic conscience, mind of the soul and divine light stuff is nothing more than New Age occult

 

[Abaxvahl]

That is New Age spiritualism. The genuine Christ is justified by faith in Christ and walks by faith and not by sight. All this cosmic conscience, mind of the soul and divine light stuff is nothing more than New Age occult

It's literally in the Scriptures but alright. I suppose the "New Age" is kind of old after all.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It's literally in the Scriptures but alright. I suppose the "New Age" is kind of old after all.

A few Scripture quotes to prove your point wouldn't go amiss.

 

[Abaxvahl]

A few Scripture quotes to prove your point wouldn't go amiss.

2 Kings 6:16-17 you can see the eyes of a man being opened to see the Hosts/Armies of Heaven.
Matthew 17:2 one sees the Glory of the Lord, and in the passage Moses who is dead was seen by men who are living.
Exodus 24:10-11 you can see Moses and the Elders eating in the presence of God and looking at Him.
1 Samuel 28:14 the soul of the dead is seen by the living.

I referenced all of these (and more) and they alone prove the absolute divisions to be false.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

2 Kings 6:16-17 you can see the eyes of a man being opened to see the Hosts/Armies of Heaven.
Matthew 17:2 one sees the Glory of the Lord, and in the passage Moses who is dead was seen by men who are living.
Exodus 24:10-11 you can see Moses and the Elders eating in the presence of God and looking at Him.
1 Samuel 28:14 the soul of the dead is seen by the living.

I referenced all of these (and more) and they alone prove the absolute divisions to be false.

All these are one-off events and not the ongoing experience of normal people.

 

[prodromos]

There are no Scriptures that show that Mary or the Saints have any influence on us, or that we should pay any regard to them at all. They are mere human beings who are dead in the grave and their spirits are totally separate from our material world.

The experience of the Orthodox Church is that there is nothing seperating those who are in Christ, whether dearly departed or not. That is true regardless of whether or not it is explicitly stated in Scripture. If you don't accept it as true because it is not something you have experienced personally then that is on you.

 

[Valletta]

Not so. The witnesses are the angels who observe the grace of God toward mankind with amazement and rejoice when each sinner repents, believes the Gospel and is saved.
All those who have died in Christ are in Paradise, totally separated from this world, and who have no idea of what has been happening since they died and their spirits went to Paradise.

Christ's Church is both in Heaven and on earth, and we on earth are in communion with the saints.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; RSVCE

 

[Tigger45]

The 'Therefore' that starts off Hebrews 12 is clearly referring the previous verses in Hebrews 11 specifically listing 'those in the faith' of the past. Its undeniable that the 'cloud of witnesses' sited in Hebrews 12 consists of the faithful of by gone days.

 

[Abaxvahl]

All these are one-off events and not the ongoing experience of normal people.

Considering the testimony of the faithful throughout all ages I'd say encountering God and the Saints and spirits is actually ongoing proving still that this division is false. Moreover nothing shows that these are one-off, you simply asserted two things without proof. I accomplished proving that this division is false and proved my case abundantly from Scripture.

 

[concretecamper]

Paul is pretty clear that Baptism makes us part of His Body. Where does scripture say physical death separates us from His Body?

 

[robycop3]

There you go. Same for Mary, there are numerous references in the Bible about brothers or brethren that are siblings and not of the same parents. Thus there is NO SCRIPTURAL PROOF that Mary had other children. None. Insisting that the word must comply with your modern understanding of the word for Mary but not for others in the Bible is mere speculation.

I posted the Scriptural proof; some of you choose to not believe it. And there's not one quark of Scripture that calls those men named in Matt. 13 anything but Jesus' bros. COMMON SENSE !

 

[robycop3]

Absolutely none that he didn't, but the attitude of Jesus' brothers towards Him is consistent with Jesus NOT being the eldest, so Scripture does imply that Joseph was a widower.

You're simply making that up to try to m,ake some kind of excust to support the false "Mary was a perpetual virgin" doctrine the RCC derived from the Greek legend of Athene.

 

[Abaxvahl]

You're simply making that up to try to m,ake some kind of excust to support the false "Mary was a perpetual virgin" doctrine the RCC derived from the Greek legend of Athene.

Prove that it was derived from that.

 

[robycop3]

Prove that it was derived from that.

Where else could it have come from? Certainly not from Scripture.

 

[Abaxvahl]

Where else could it have come from? Certainly not from Scripture.

That is not a proof that it came from that. So you have none. Moreover the statement "Jesus had brothers and sisters" is not at all incompatible with "Mary was a perpetual virgin," for the word "brother" and "sister" can mean more than just having the same parents (and in fact Jesus would've had half-siblings whether or not they were children of Mary and Joseph or children of Joseph from a previous marriage as is commonly thought due to them being depicted as older).

 

[Valletta]

You're simply making that up to try to m,ake some kind of excust to support the false "Mary was a perpetual virgin" doctrine the RCC derived from the Greek legend of Athene.

It seems that the words of St. Augustine apply:

“It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?” Sermons 186:1 A.D. 411

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That is not a proof that it came from that. So you have none. Moreover the statement "Jesus had brothers and sisters" is not at all incompatible with "Mary was a perpetual virgin," for the word "brother" and "sister" can mean more than just having the same parents (and in fact Jesus would've had half-siblings whether or not they were children of Mary and Joseph or children of Joseph from a previous marriage as is commonly thought due to them being depicted as older).

This is the Scripture that proves that Jesus had brothers and sisters:

"Coming to His hometown, He taught the people in their synagogue, and they were astonished. “Where did this man get such wisdom and miraculous powers?” they asked. 55“Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t His mother’s name Mary, and aren’t His brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas? 56Aren’t all His sisters with us as well? Where then did this man get all these things?” (Matthew 13:54-56),

Matthew reports what the people in Jesus' home town said. They made no mention of half-brothers and sisters. They saw them as His mother, brothers and sisters. What astonished the people in the synagogue was that they knew Jesus and his family well, because He was brought up with them. It amazes me how you can blatantly ignore a plain report like this in favour of a doctrine of "perpetual virginity" which has no substance in the New Testament or in the writings of the early Church fathers. It is clear as the nose on your face that Mary had children after Jesus and only people who believe in fairy tales think differently.

 

[Abaxvahl]

This is the Scripture that proves that Jesus had brothers and sisters:

"Coming to His hometown, He taught the people in their synagogue, and they were astonished. “Where did this man get such wisdom and miraculous powers?” they asked. 55“Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t His mother’s name Mary, and aren’t His brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas? 56Aren’t all His sisters with us as well? Where then did this man get all these things?” (Matthew 13:54-56),

Matthew reports what the people in Jesus' home town said. They made no mention of half-brothers and sisters. They saw them as His mother, brothers and sisters. What astonished the people in the synagogue was that they knew Jesus and his family well, because He was brought up with them. It amazes me how you can blatantly ignore a plain report like this in favour of a doctrine of "perpetual virginity" which has no substance in the New Testament or in the writings of the early Church fathers. It is clear as the nose on your face that Mary had children after Jesus and only people who believe in fairy tales think differently.

Same term can refer to half-brothers, it doesn't have to be mentioned. What's clear as the nose on your face is that you have made an unjustified assumptions about what a word means saying it can only mean only one thing when it in fact means more than one thing and you refuse to provide an argument as to why the definition you selected is correct.

 

[robycop3]

That is not a proof that it came from that. So you have none. Moreover the statement "Jesus had brothers and sisters" is not at all incompatible with "Mary was a perpetual virgin," for the word "brother" and "sister" can mean more than just having the same parents (and in fact Jesus would've had half-siblings whether or not they were children of Mary and Joseph or children of Joseph from a previous marriage as is commonly thought due to them being depicted as older).

Scripture calls them bros. & srs. & that makes it so. Matt. 13:55-56 shows that their neighbors the Nazarenes knew they were J&M's children. There's simply no case that Mary was a virgin her whole life.