Is there salvation without Mary?

[The Liturgist]

We do know that they were believers after His resurrection.

Indeed, for example, St. James Alpheus, Bishop of Jerusalem, whose epistle is in the New Testament.

 

[The Liturgist]

Actually, the canon of scripture in other branches of Christianity which are centuries older than the Protestant churches do not have your 73 books. Some, such as the Coptic Church have a lot more and some have less. The fact that your branch waited until its Council at Trent to determine is 73-book canon makes it really quite late in the scheme of things.

Actually, fact check: the Eastern Orthodox and Coptic Orthodox church have the same canon, and that canon is also recognized by the Syriac Orthodox and the Assyrian Church of the East, at present. It is slightly larger than the Byzantine canon, featuring Psalm 151 and a few other bits. In the past, the Assyrian church probably accepted a smaller canon, because East Syriac copies of the Peshitta only have a subset of the 27 books in the Athanasian canon.. The Armenian canon adds one book, 3 Corinthians.

You were thinking of the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church, and the Eritrean Tewahedo Orthodox Church, because some people erroneously call these two churches Coptic even today, because the Ethiopian or Abyssian church was an Autonomous church under the Omophorion of the Coptic Orthodox Pope of Alexandria, with its bishops appointed by the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church, until the Ethiopian church was granted autocephaly in 1959. His Holiness Abune Matthias is the sixth Patriarch of Ethiopia. In 1994, the Coptic church granted autocephaly to the portion of the Ethiopian church in Eritrea after that country won a war of independence, and became the Eritrean Tewahedo Orthodox Church.

These two churches feature two canons of scripture, a Broad Canon and a Narrow Canon, which differ in that the Broad Canon includes the Didascalia and other additional books in the New Testament. The Narrow Canon features a large number of additional books in the Old Testament (the Broad Canon features these also, plus one more Old Testament book). The most noteworthy items in the Ethiopian canon in my opinion are 1 Enoch, which was of course quoted by St. Jude in his epistle, and Jubilees.

To my knowledge, there are no presently extant churches other than the Protestant churches which have a smaller OT or NT canon than the Roman Catholic canon. Additionally, the Anglicans accept most of the Deuterocanonical Books* as they read them in Morning Prayer and Evensong; they are included in the Apocrypha section of any complete King James Version (sadly, nearly all KJVs printed since around 1800 lack the Apocrypha for cost saving purposes). I also came across a post while perusing old threads in Traditional Theology, written by my friend @MarkRohfrietsch in which he stated Lutheranism has an open canon, if I read it right, and Mark is The Man when it comes to Lutheran theological chops.

It is starting to look less likely I will be able to make it to Canada in October by the way Mark - what time does the fall foliage come down? Right now its looking like at least three weeks before I can get out of here. But the Christmas season might be nice; it occurred to me the Canadian might be a lot of fun in December if they have the Park Cars opened up. I need to check the VIA Rail website...

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Actually, fact check: the Eastern Orthodox and Coptic Orthodox church have the same canon, and that canon is also recognized by the Syriac Orthodox and the Assyrian Church of the East, at present. It is slightly larger than the Byzantine canon, featuring Psalm 151 and a few other bits. In the past, the Assyrian church probably accepted a smaller canon, because East Syriac copies of the Peshitta only have a subset of the 27 books in the Athanasian canon.. The Armenian canon adds one book, 3 Corinthians.

You were thinking of the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church, and the Eritrean Tewahedo Orthodox Church, because some people erroneously call these two churches Coptic even today, because the Ethiopian or Abyssian church was an Autonomous church under the Omophorion of the Coptic Orthodox Pope of Alexandria, with its bishops appointed by the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church, until the Ethiopian church was granted autocephaly in 1959. His Holiness Abune Matthias is the sixth Patriarch of Ethiopia. In 1994, the Coptic church granted autocephaly to the portion of the Ethiopian church in Eritrea after that country won a war of independence, and became the Eritrean Tewahedo Orthodox Church.

These two churches feature two canons of scripture, a Broad Canon and a Narrow Canon, which differ in that the Broad Canon includes the Didascalia and other additional books in the New Testament. The Narrow Canon features a large number of additional books in the Old Testament (the Broad Canon features these also, plus one more Old Testament book). The most noteworthy items in the Ethiopian canon in my opinion are 1 Enoch, which was of course quoted by St. Jude in his epistle, and Jubilees.

To my knowledge, there are no presently extant churches other than the Protestant churches which have a smaller OT or NT canon than the Roman Catholic canon. Additionally, the Anglicans accept most of the Deuterocanonical Books* as they read them in Morning Prayer and Evensong; they are included in the Apocrypha section of any complete King James Version (sadly, nearly all KJVs printed since around 1800 lack the Apocrypha for cost saving purposes). I also came across a post while perusing old threads in Traditional Theology, written by my friend @MarkRohfrietsch in which he stated Lutheranism has an open canon, if I read it right, and Mark is The Man when it comes to Lutheran theological chops.

It is starting to look less likely I will be able to make it to Canada in October by the way Mark - what time does the fall foliage come down? Right now its looking like at least three weeks before I can get out of here. But the Christmas season might be nice; it occurred to me the Canadian might be a lot of fun in December if they have the Park Cars opened up. I need to check the VIA Rail website...

Trees are starting to turn now in Ontario; we had frost just north of us last week; which is not early. Despite the colder air, I am going fishing for a week just after our thanksgiving and expect about 1/2 the trees to be bare by then, and hope to be in Bavaria in Early December for equipment approval for my new line at work. With Church, extra services through Advent and Christmas. I know how things get busy.

Interesting to note, in our stand alone edition of the Apocrypha, there are "extra books" included, and as explained in the notes, prior to Trent there was no set Canon, and various Bibles in use included a variety of books, some of which are not in the Roman Canon. If you don't have this book, you should!
https://www.cph.org/pdf/012065.pdf

 

[concretecamper]

What does that have to do with anything? Where does it mention their wedding ceremony?

betrothed, coming together, all parts of the wedding ceremony. I believe this is why you do not understand the passage you quoted.

 

[The Liturgist]

Trees are starting to turn now in Ontario; we had frost just north of us last week; which is not early. Despite the colder air, I am going fishing for a week just after our thanksgiving and expect about 1/2 the trees to be bare by then, and hope to be in Bavaria in Early December for equipment approval for my new line at work. With Church, extra services through Advent and Christmas. I know how things get busy.

So it sounds like the best time to go to Canada for fall foliage is the first week of October? Also, would you expect snow along the route of the Canadian, which goes from Toronto through Northern Ontario and across the Prairie Provinces to Vancouver, in December? Or would a train to the Atlantic provinces offer a better bet? There is also a service which runs

Interesting to note, in our stand alone edition of the Apocrypha, there are "extra books" included, and as explained in the notes, prior to Trent there was no set Canon, and various Bibles in use included a variety of books, some of which are not in the Roman Canon. If you don't have this book, you should!
https://www.cph.org/pdf/012065.pdf

I just ordered it!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

So it sounds like the best time to go to Canada for fall foliage is the first week of October? Also, would you expect snow along the route of the Canadian, which goes from Toronto through Northern Ontario and across the Prairie Provinces to Vancouver, in December? Or would a train to the Atlantic provinces offer a better bet? There is also a service which runs



I just ordered it!

From November on, there is always a chance of snow, We and the maritime provinces can get more because for us, we are in the middle of the great lakes, and the Maritimes are on the Atlantic cost. Central Ontario through Manitoba, think Minnesota. Saskatchewan west, think North Dakota and Montana. Vancouver, think washington; southern ontario, think Northern New York.

Enjoy the book.

Interesting: Pastor just told me today that there is a new, updated and annotated NRSV coming out shortly that references recent scholarship on the Dead Sea Scrolls in it's notes. He is excited to get a copy.

 

[The Liturgist]

From November on, there is always a chance of snow, We and the maritime provinces can get more because for us, we are in the middle of the great lakes, and the Maritimes are on the Atlantic cost. Central Ontario through Manitoba, think Minnesota. Saskatchewan west, think North Dakota and Montana. Vancouver, think washington; southern ontario, think Northern New York.

Enjoy the book.

Interesting: Pastor just told me today that there is a new, updated and annotated NRSV coming out shortly that references recent scholarship on the Dead Sea Scrolls in it's notes. He is excited to get a copy.

Oh cool. NRSV editions are published on Scribd,* which I subscribe to, so if you could get me the title of that, that would be awesome.

By the way, are you ever allowed to wear a stole over your left shoulder in the manner of deacons, or a dalmatic? And does the pastor ever wear and/or is he allowed to wear, a cope or chasuble? I really love the Evangelical Catholic liturgy of your church, and I was wondering how far you are able to push it in terms of vesture, incense and so on.

*Also via Scribd I have access to the bizarre premillenial pretrib/Rapturist Calvinist KJV Study Bible, including the Color Edition, published by Thomas Nelson with a respectable group of PCA, OPC and Calvinist SBC editors), the New Oxford Annotated Study Bible with Apocrypha (one of a plethora of NRSV), the ESV Literary Study Bible, the Orthodox Study Bible (particularly useful because it has the Septuagint), the Jewish Study Bible, and many many others, including all of Zondervan’s NIV material (but I think it all uses the new NIV, which has liberal textual changes based on Today’s NIV, intended to make it more egalitarian, limiting its usefulness to me). Of course I had several of these in print, and other books I had to buy via Amazon, Google Books and iBooks, including the Lutheran Study Bible and the Jewish Annotated New Testament, but scribd is so handy.

 

[Valletta]

So it sounds like the best time to go to Canada for fall foliage is the first week of October? Also, would you expect snow along the route of the Canadian, which goes from Toronto through Northern Ontario and across the Prairie Provinces to Vancouver, in December? Or would a train to the Atlantic provinces offer a better bet? There is also a service which runs



I just ordered it!

You would have a chance to see snow through Ontario, but generally the fall foliage comes before significant snowfall. Now once you get to higher elevations through the mountains you should see snow.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Oh cool. NRSV editions are published on Scribd,* which I subscribe to, so if you could get me the title of that, that would be awesome.

By the way, are you ever allowed to wear a stole over your left shoulder in the manner of deacons, or a dalmatic? And does the pastor ever wear and/or is he allowed to wear, a cope or chasuble? I really love the Evangelical Catholic liturgy of your church, and I was wondering how far you are able to push it in terms of vesture, incense and so on.

*Also via Scribd I have access to the bizarre premillenial pretrib/Rapturist Calvinist KJV Study Bible, including the Color Edition, published by Thomas Nelson with a respectable group of PCA, OPC and Calvinist SBC editors), the New Oxford Annotated Study Bible with Apocrypha (one of a plethora of NRSV), the ESV Literary Study Bible, the Orthodox Study Bible (particularly useful because it has the Septuagint), the Jewish Study Bible, and many many others, including all of Zondervan’s NIV material (but I think it all uses the new NIV, which has liberal textual changes based on Today’s NIV, intended to make it more egalitarian, limiting its usefulness to me). Of course I had several of these in print, and other books I had to buy via Amazon, Google Books and iBooks, including the Lutheran Study Bible and the Jewish Annotated New Testament, but scribd is so handy.

No, we have consecrated Deacons, they can and most do; as Elders, we are laymen and serve as liturgical deacons. We wear black roman style Cassocks, occasionally with Surplice. For Major Feasts and Festivals Pastor would wear a Chasuble and Maniple, we have a Tunicle; not yet put into service, for the Elder. The set we have would do for both "White" and "Red" Festivals.


Following the Trail of Breadcrumbs for the Upcoming NRSV Revision – Catholic Bible Talk

 

[The Liturgist]

I replied to Mark here, for those interested.


(as my reply was really getting to be off topic)

 

[robycop3]

You completely missed the point, "first born" to a Jew says nothing about any other children. As with the Bible passage with Abram, brother and sister can mean people with completely different parents. Even the three leaders of the Protestant reformation agreed Mary had no other children, I don't know when your belief gained popularity with Baptists.

The belief gained popularity from Scripture, which is our only source of TRUE intel about God.

 

[The Liturgist]

The belief gained popularity from Scripture, which is our only source of TRUE intel about God.

It is a misreading, and if you don’t believe me, the perpetual virginity of Mary was unanimously believed in not only by the early Church Fathers, but by Jan Hus, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer, and John Wesley, who are the definitive Protestant reformers and theologians. Such a belief can therefore be said to be the traditional Protestant exegesis.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

You completely missed the point, "first born" to a Jew says nothing about any other children. As with the Bible passage with Abram, brother and sister can mean people with completely different parents. Even the three leaders of the Protestant reformation agreed Mary had no other children, I don't know when your belief gained popularity with Baptists.

I was trying to find a rough time frame when the perpetual virginity of Mary really became questioned and it looks like sometime in the 17th century. However, I can't find any real source of where this originated from. Maybe @TheLiturgist has more information, maybe within radical elements of the English Reformation? Even the LCMS authorities such as Franz Pieper leaned towards perpetual virginity.

 

[robycop3]

It is a misreading, and if you don’t believe me, the perpetual virginity of Mary was unanimously believed in not only by the early Church Fathers, but by Jan Hus, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer, and John Wesley, who are the definitive Protestant reformers and theologians. Such a belief can therefore be said to be the traditional Protestant exegesis.

Actually, it was EISEGESIS, Protestant, or RCC, as Scripture mentions her other kids more than once. And again, Joseph didn't marry her just to be his cook, any more than I did my wife, and, if you're married, you, either.

 

[concretecamper]

The belief gained popularity from Scripture, which is our only source of TRUE intel about God.

you of course can believe it, but the belief that it is the only TRUE source is not biblical, nor is that belief shared by the Church from it's beginning until present day.

 

[concretecamper]

Joseph didn't marry her just to be his cook, any more than I did my wife, and, if you're married, you, either.

I bet this idea comes from non-biblical sources

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

It is a misreading, and if you don’t believe me, the perpetual virginity of Mary was unanimously believed in not only by the early Church Fathers, but by Jan Hus, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer, and John Wesley, who are the definitive Protestant reformers and theologians. Such a belief can therefore be said to be the traditional Protestant exegesis.

Indeed it was/is. Our Confessions clearly state it.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I bet this idea comes from non-biblical sources

Yep.

 

[The Liturgist]

I was trying to find a rough time frame when the perpetual virginity of Mary really became questioned and it looks like sometime in the 17th century. However, I can't find any real source of where this originated from. Maybe @TheLiturgist has more information, maybe within radical elements of the English Reformation? Even the LCMS authorities such as Franz Pieper leaned towards perpetual virginity.

I believe the questioning of it started with the Radical Revolution, which did produce some nice groups like the Anabaptists and Mennonites, but it also produced Anarcho-Christians and Unitarianism (via Soccinius) and other heresies, for example, my denomination, when it was in its putative Puritan stage, along with the Calvinist Puritans, was obviously heretical in that we were iconoclastic and we hanged people for witchcraft based on “spectral evidence” which is to say the mere allegation that someone had appeared in a nightmare. But that was good enough for good ol’ Cotton Mather, President of Harvard*, his son Increase, and their posse of bloodthirsty superstitious crackpots to hang someone... Really, it was not until the celebrated Jonathan Edwards traveled about New England and chewed everyone out, instigating the first Revival, that our denomination began to bear spiritual fruit.

By the time of the Congregationalists I admire, like Rev. John Hunter, the doctrine of the Perpetual Virginity was well established in our church.

* Harvard was home to the Unitarian Schism that took most our churches in Boston, as well as our oldest churches and congregations, for instance, the Old Ship Church, which is the oldest church building in the US, is part of the UUA cult, and so is the First Congregation in Boston, although they meet in an ugly modern building, but they also have Arlington Street, with its exquisite Tiffany windows, and other beautiful old churches, and that grates my gear, but, let us pause for a minute and consider what a great and wonderful institution Harvard is, with its billionaire lawyers and MBA graduates and its heretical, neo-Gnostic Divinity School. Seriously the only good thing I have to say about Harvard Divinity School is they have an excellent library. MIT actually does good work, but Harvard I think exists just to annoy me, of course, some of you may be able to guess where I went, but no, I am not a Bonesman...

 

[The Liturgist]

Actually, it was EISEGESIS, Protestant, or RCC, as Scripture mentions her other kids more than once.

No, it doesn’t. Nowhere does scripture say that Mary has other children. It mentions his brothers, but based on Judaic cultural context, there is every reason to believe these were the offspring of Joseph or his cousins. For example, St. James the Apostle, the son of Alfeus, who presided over the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 (not to be confused with St. James the Great, the brother of St. John the Beloved Disciple, who was the first Apostle to be martyred* earlier in Acts) was a cousin of our Lord, but was called “the brother of the Lord.”

And again, Joseph didn't marry her just to be his cook, any more than I did my wife, and, if you're married, you, either.

While that is an assumption on your part, if true, it still would not mean that, after the Virgin Birth, they would not respect the miracle that occurred and remain in holy celibacy for their lifetimes. But, and this may surprise some, a lot of elderly people like St. Joseph get married even today with no intention to engage in sexual relations.