Is there salvation without Mary?

Daniel Marsh said:

I was not aware that the reformists taught soul sleep. Which one's did? Where in their writings?

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I don't have a Protestant leader to quote here but, Protestants and Pentecost reject the intercession of departed souls arguing that the souls are in some "frozen" state until the second coming of Jesus

Daniel Marsh said:

I do not see the principle at all. Please, spell it out. Because creating teachings by taking verses out of context is bad teaching.

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Esther 4:14 says something significant about who God is and God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and God not a respecter of persons, so we can take what is revealed to be true of God as setting a precedent. God is powerful to save and is not dependent on any on our cooperation in order to bring about salvation. If not for Esther, then God could have brought about salvation through someone else. If the Israelites had not been ready to take hold of God's promises, then they could have spent a second round of 40 years in the wilderness and God could have kept His promises to the next generation. Or God could have wiped them out and started a new line through Moses (Deuteronomy 9:13-14).

concretecamper said:

you must move out of the OT and into the new. Abraham's bosom is what I think you are referring to.

why ask me to show you scripture. The bible doesnt command me to listen to the bible. The bible does command me to listen to the Church.
I'm not sure where you came up with this idea. Perhaps you can show us?

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This is just my impression,

Luke 23:43
Jesus said to him, “I promise you that today you will be in Paradise with me.”

1 Peter 3:19
and in his spiritual existence he went and preached to the imprisoned spirits.

1 Peter 4:6
That is why the Good News was preached also to the dead, to those who had been judged in their physical existence as everyone is judged; it was preached to them so that in their spiritual existence they may live as God lives.

Matthew 27:50-53
King James Version
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Ephesians 4:8-10
Good News Translation
8 As the scripture says,

“When he went up to the very heights,
he took many captives with him;
he gave gifts to people.”

9 Now, what does “he went up” mean? It means that first he came down to the lowest depths of the earth.] 10 So the one who came down is the same one who went up, above and beyond the heavens, to fill the whole universe with his presence.

2 Corinthians 12:3-4
I repeat, I know that this man was snatched to Paradise (again, I do not know whether this actually happened or whether it was a vision—only God knows), and there he heard things which cannot be put into words, things that human lips may not speak.

Basically, before Jesus death and resurrection. The dead was in the grave. Paradise at that time was the good side of the grave. When Jesus died He preached to or announced the good news. At his Resurrection or between his death and Resurrection the OT saints rose from the dead. When Jesus went to heaven either before or after his resurrection paradise was moved to Heaven. That is why Paul was caught up to paradise, and not taken down to it.

Daniel Marsh said:

This is just my impression,

Luke 23:43
Jesus said to him, “I promise you that today you will be in Paradise with me.”

1 Peter 3:19
and in his spiritual existence he went and preached to the imprisoned spirits.

1 Peter 4:6
That is why the Good News was preached also to the dead, to those who had been judged in their physical existence as everyone is judged; it was preached to them so that in their spiritual existence they may live as God lives.

Matthew 27:50-53
King James Version
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Ephesians 4:8-10
Good News Translation
8 As the scripture says,

“When he went up to the very heights,
he took many captives with him;
he gave gifts to people.”

9 Now, what does “he went up” mean? It means that first he came down to the lowest depths of the earth.] 10 So the one who came down is the same one who went up, above and beyond the heavens, to fill the whole universe with his presence.

2 Corinthians 12:3-4
I repeat, I know that this man was snatched to Paradise (again, I do not know whether this actually happened or whether it was a vision—only God knows), and there he heard things which cannot be put into words, things that human lips may not speak.

Basically, before Jesus death and resurrection. The dead was in the grave. Paradise at that time was the good side of the grave. When Jesus died He preached to or announced the good news. At his Resurrection or between his death and Resurrection the OT saints rose from the dead. When Jesus went to heaven either before or after his resurrection paradise was moved to Heaven. That is why Paul was caught up to paradise, and not taken down to it.

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"The word "paradise" is probably of Persian origin. It occurs but three times in the Old Testament, namely, in Cant. iv. 13, Eccl. ii. 5, and Neh. ii. 8. In the first of these passages it means "garden"; in the second and third, "park." In the apocalypses and in the Talmud the word is used of the Garden of Eden and its heavenly prototype (comp. references in Weber's "Jüdische Theologie," 2d ed., 1897, pp. 344 et seq.). From this usage it came to denote, as in the New Testament, the abode of the blessed (comp. Luke xxiii. 43; II Cor. xii. 4; Rev. ii. 7).

...

Banquet for the Righteous in Paradise.
Regarding the feast that is prepared for the righteous in paradise, the Leviathan and "the wine preserved in its grapes since the six days of Creation" are the main courses to be served at the banquet (B. B. 75a). The order of the banquet follows: "The Almighty invites the righteous into paradise. King David requests God to join the company. The angel Gabriel brings two thrones, one for God and one for David, as the Scriptures say, 'his throne as the sun before me' (Ps. lxxxix. 36). They feast and drink three goblets of wine. The toast (grace before meals) is offered, to Abraham, 'the father of the world,' but he declines because he had a son (Ishmael) who antagonized God. Isaac, in turn, declines because one of his descendants (an Edomite) destroyed the Holy Temple. Jacob declines because he married two sisters (against the Law). Moses declines because he did not cross the Jordan into Palestine. Joshua declines because he left no issue. Finally, King David accepts the toast, saying: 'I will take the cup of salvation and call upon the name of the Lord' (Ps. cxvi. 13). After grace the Law is produced, and God, through the interpreter, Zerubbabel ben Shealtiel (Ezra iii. 2), reveals the secrets and reasons of the commandments. David preaches from the Haggadah, and the righteous say: 'Let His great Name be hallowed forevermore in paradise!' The wicked in Gehinnom, on hearing the doxology, take courage and answer 'Amen!' Whereupon the Almighty orders the attending angels to open the gates of paradise and to permit the wicked to enter, as the Scriptures say, 'Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth the truth [] may enter in' (Isa. xxvi. 2), the word 'emunim' being interpreted 'who observe to answer "Amen"' [; plural, ]" (Tanna debe-Eliyahu Zuṭa xx.)."

"
ABRAHAM'S BOSOM:

By: Kaufmann Kohler
In the New Testament and in Jewish writings a term signifying the abodeof bliss in the other world. According to IV Macc. xiii. 17, the righteous who die for their faith are received by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in paradise (compare Matt. viii. 11: "Many shall come from the east and the west and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven"). In Ḳid. 72b, Adda bar Ahaba, a rabbi of the third century, is said to be "sitting in the bosom of Abraham," which means that he has entered paradise. With this should be compared the statement of R. Levi (Gen. R. xlviii.): "In the world to come Abraham sits at the gate of Gehenna, permitting none to enter who bears the seal of the covenant" (see Circumcision).

In the Hellenistic Testament of Abraham it is Adam, the representative of humanity, who sits at the gate of hell and paradise; the Jewish view of later times placed Abraham, the progenitor of Israel, in Adam's place. This was also the view of the New Testament writers as presented in Luke, xvi. 19-31, the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Lazarus, the beggar, died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's Bosom; the rich man died and was put into Gehenna, where he saw Lazarus in the Bosom of Abraham, full of joy, whereas he suffered great torment. Thereat he cried: "Father Abraham, have mercy on me!" and finally he asked Abraham to send Lazarus to his father's house to admonish his five brothers to lead lives characterized by repentance, in order not to meet the same fate as his own."


PARADISE - JewishEncyclopedia.com
ABRAHAM'S BOSOM - JewishEncyclopedia.com

concretecamper said:

you must move out of the OT and into the new. Abraham's bosom is what I think you are referring to.

why ask me to show you scripture. The bible doesnt command me to listen to the bible. The bible does command me to listen to the Church.
I'm not sure where you came up with this idea. Perhaps you can show us?

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Luke 15:10
King James Version
10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

WebersHome said:

.
If we're going to assign Jesus' mom a role in the plan of salvation, then we have to include all the mom's leading up to her, including Mary's mom, and Tamar, Rahab, Ruth, Bathsheba, Sarah, Noah's wife, and Eve: most especially Eve because she's the mom who started the ball rolling to Mary.

● Gen 3:15 . . I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.
_

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Romans 16:20
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Daniel Marsh said:

I was not aware that the reformists taught soul sleep. Which one's did? Where in their writings?

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Wikipedia cites various anabaptists and Luther. Luther was somewhat ambiguous. First, he thought that it wasn't entirely clear, but he thought it most likely that souls were asleep. He did not mean that they were dead, just asleep. He also acknowledged that the Bible mentions some exceptions, and in a few places (though a minority) he implied that people might see God during their sleep.

This should be distinguished from the view that people die completely until they are resurrected. That wouldn't be soul sleep, as soul sleep implies that the soul is still alive. Both views are held by various people, but both are rejected by most of what I'd call traditional Protestant denominations.

Daniel Marsh said:

Luke 15:10
King James Version
10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

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yes, the Angel's too rejoice

I understand why this question often arises but it should not even be considered. The Lord testifies what salvation is in John 14:6.

There are a couple times in the Gospels when it seems that the Lord slights His mother but on the Cross, He tells His disciple John to behold His mother ( John 19:25-27 ). As an apostle St. John wrote of the honored woman of the apocalypse in Revelation 12. She was prophesied of by Isaiah 7:14 & to be a chosen vessel.

The early Christian bishop & martyr St. Ignatius (ca. 100 AD) properly explains the purpose & status of the blessed Virgin Mother in God’s plan of salvation to the Ephesians in chapters 18 & 19 of his letter: Ignatius of Antioch to the Ephesians (Lightfoot translation)

James A said:

I don't have a Protestant leader to quote here but, Protestants and Pentecost reject the intercession of departed souls arguing that the souls are in some "frozen" state until the second coming of Jesus

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You mean those Protestants who are of the Pentecostal type believe in that "frozen" state awaiting the Second Coming, I take it.

Albion said:

You mean those Protestants who are of the Pentecostal type believe in that "frozen" state awaiting the Second Coming, I take it.

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no, most mainline protestants believe in soul sleep or whatever you call it.

concretecamper said:

no, most mainline protestants believe in soul sleep or whatever you call it.

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Most Protestants certainly do not, and that includes the "mainline" denominations as well as the rest.

Albion said:

Most Protestants certainly do not, and that includes the "mainline" denominations as well as the rest.

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your phd studies certainly taught you they do!!!! So instead of soul sleep, what do you call it?

concretecamper said:

your phd studies certainly taught you they do!!!!

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Try listing some denominations that do and you'll see how few and out of the mainstream the ones you can put on that list actually are. In fact, the belief in soul sleep is generally considered to be one of several teachings which would identify any church as a cult.

Albion said:

Try listing some denominations that do and you'll see how few and out of the mainstream the ones you can put on that list actually are. In fact, the belief in soul sleep is generally considered to be one of several teachings which would identify any church as a cult.

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I see you omitted the rest of my post. Soul sleep or whatever other term is taught to reflect the same concept.

concretecamper said:

I see you omitted the rest of my post. Soul sleep or whatever other term is taught to reflect the same concept.

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concretecamper said:

Soul sleep or whatever other term is taught to reflect the same concept.

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Same as what? "James A" described what is commonly called "soul sleep" when he put it this way:

"...the souls are in some 'frozen' state until the second coming of Jesus"


Or you could believe Hedrick who explained it this way:

"This should be distinguished from the view that people die completely until they are resurrected. That wouldn't be soul sleep, as soul sleep implies that the soul is still alive. Both views are held by various people, but both are rejected by most of what I'd call traditional Protestant denominations."

Albion said:

Most Protestants certainly do not, and that includes the "mainline" denominations as well as the rest.

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Reformists redefined "death" for sure. It is based on the new definition that they claim Bible does not teach intercession of departed souls.

James A said:

Reformists redefined "death" for sure.

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How so...and whom do you have in mind when you refer to "Reformists?"

Help us out here, James, so we can try to settle this.

James A said:

Reformists redefined "death" for sure. It is based on the new definition that they claim Bible does not teach intercession of departed souls.

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Albion said:

Help us out here, James, so we can try to settle this.

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James is correct. There is nothing to settle here.

Most if not all main line denominations teach some magical place, call it soul sleep, frozen, whatever floats your boat, with what happens to the dead. According to these denominations, they certainly aren't alive in Christ, despite what scripture teaches.

Most if not all main line denominations teach some magical place, call it soul sleep, frozen, whatever floats your boat, with what happens to the dead.

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No, they don't. And that is probably why the names of all these "main line denominations" that supposedly teach that notion have yet to be produced by anyone on this thread.