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That isn't philosophy, it's political satire...
But Christ is not the one making the claim--that's on you. I put it to you that you claim that there is objective morality and that "biblical" morality is that objective morality because you want to impose it on people who do not share your faith. That's the self interest.I know this doesn't prove objective morality but I was speaking as far as Christain belief is concerned. Isn't Christianity based on there being one moral truth. I know its just a claim in the secular world but for Christians its not just a claim. It seems everything goes back to one truth.
As moral and rational beings we believe there are certain moral truths. This is a fundemental axion all civilisation is built on. Jesus is making the bold claim that His truth or way is the only truth. That the truth humans seek leads back to Christ. Its a challenge to us in that we seek truth and argue for truth as though there is one truth. Christ is sending out the claim that he is that truth we are looking for.
It's also a philosophical treatise about the limits of objective morality and rational thinking.
I don't know why people dismiss political philosophy as if it's something lesser than the "pure" philosophers.
Political philosophy has a rather significant track record of preempting pure philosophy.
The cultural context is British colonialism in Ireland.
Swift was satirizing the British policies in that country, suggesting the only thing more cruel they could do was eating Irish children.
I put it to you that you claim that there is objective morality and that "biblical" morality is that objective morality because you want to impose it on people who do not share your faith. That's the self interest.
Sorry I missed this post. Didn't Christ sayBut Christ is not the one making the claim--that's on you. I put it to you that you claim that there is objective morality and that "biblical" morality is that objective morality because you want to impose it on people who do not share your faith. That's the self interest.
I agree. People don't just give their subjective view but claim a truth. When people buy into ideologies they are actually giving up their freedom to find the the "truth" in favor of the identity groups truth. The ironic thing is people end up being more bound up when buying into ideologies than having freedom of thought.That's most people though...not just Christians.
Everyone running around calling people "islamaphobic" or "transphobic" or "insert-identity-group-phobic"....or broad brushing everyone who disagrees with them as "nazis" or "white supremacists" or whatever....
Those people are doing the same thing. They're imposing their "sense" of morality on others by lobbing moral accusations against them.
Frankly, I liked it better when the Christians did it. They may not have liked me....but they didn't actively try to shut down anyone who disagrees with them from speaking.
Not really. Jesus claimed He was the "Truth" above all other claimed truths. Today's idea of truth in a postmodern society in a subjective/relative one. In other words they claim there is no truth and that many truths apply. So making a claim that there is only one "truth" is different.It's a claim regardless of who makes it.
True but that's not the point. Most religions claim there are many gods and from this many truths. The Christian faith claims there is only one truth. Its a claim statement from a person who lived around 2,000 years ago.You wouldn't need any faith if it wasn't.
All morals begin with a belief and built upon so its beyond rationality. But in a way its not irrational because we can look throughout history at patterns of behavior to see how these moral truths have been extracted from thousands of years of abstracting them and extracting what works and provides stability in a chaotic world. In that sense they are rational and every bit facts as physical laws.That's not a rational argument,
Of course we are moral beings by the fact that we have to live with others and morality is about how we treat others. We don't think "oh I will be good because it will enhance my survival". We think "I will do good for the sake of doing good", "I will do the right thing because its the right thing to do".and I don't think I'd call us moral beings.
The evidence shows its more than that. Mere cooperation doesn't account for how we do more than cooperate. Cooperation to survive could mean anything. Communist China has survived quite well for many years based on forced cooperation.But you wouldn't say it was the moral thing to do.Not really. I would say all civilization is built upon the advantage of cooperation.
Yes and Muhammad was only a man and humans have a tendency to make false claims because they are fallible.Muhammad made some bold claims too.
Because God is the Law. He is the Good and Christ is the personification of that Good.That the truth humans seek leads back to Christ. Its a challenge to us in that we seek truth and argue for truth as though there is one truth.
There's only one reality....so there's only one truth.
That's a weird claim. How does a person become an abstract concept like truth? Or justice? Or love?
Evidently you don't live in the less urban regions of the Bible Belt.That's most people though...not just Christians.
Everyone running around calling people "islamaphobic" or "transphobic" or "insert-identity-group-phobic"....or broad brushing everyone who disagrees with them as "nazis" or "white supremacists" or whatever....
Those people are doing the same thing. They're imposing their "sense" of morality on others by lobbing moral accusations against them.
Frankly, I liked it better when the Christians did it. They may not have liked me....but they didn't actively try to shut down anyone who disagrees with them from speaking.
No, that's not what I meant by "imposing."That's most people though...not just Christians.
Everyone running around calling people "islamaphobic" or "transphobic" or "insert-identity-group-phobic"....or broad brushing everyone who disagrees with them as "nazis" or "white supremacists" or whatever....
Those people are doing the same thing. They're imposing their "sense" of morality on others by lobbing moral accusations against them.
And "The Left" doesn't seem to have done a very good job of shutting you down, either. But as far as you have told us, it doesn't appear that they have actually imposed anything on you.Frankly, I liked it better when the Christians did it. They may not have liked me....but they didn't actively try to shut down anyone who disagrees with them from speaking.
Seems like both worse than the otherNo, that's not what I meant by "imposing."
And "The Left" doesn't seem to have done a very good job of shutting you down, either. But as far as you have told us, it doesn't appear that they have actually imposed anything on you.
Evidently you don't live in the less urban regions of the Bible Belt.
No, that's not what I meant by "imposing."
And "The Left" doesn't seem to have done a very good job of shutting you down, either. But as far as you have told us, it doesn't appear that they have actually imposed anything on you.
I did live there for most of my life. And liberalism had them kissing up to political correctness just like everyone else. Those who call sin by name are few and far between, most of those in the Bible belt much preferring to be "nice" and to "just get along with everyone else".Evidently you don't live in the less urban regions of the Bible Belt.
Not really. Jesus claimed He was the "Truth" above all other claimed truths.
Today's idea of truth in a postmodern society in a subjective/relative one.
True but that's not the point. Most religions claim there are many gods and from this many truths. The Christian faith claims there is only one truth. Its a claim statement from a person who lived around 2,000 years ago.
Its either true or its a lie. Seeming this claim comes from the same faith that states "thou shall not lie" its a pretty significant claim compared to all other faiths. Its a pretty significant claim period.
All morals begin with a belief and built upon so its beyond rationality. But in a way its not irrational because we can look throughout history at patterns of behavior to see how these moral truths have been extracted from thousands of years of abstracting them and extracting what works and provides stability in a chaotic world. In that sense they are rational and every bit facts as physical laws.
Of course we are moral beings by the fact that we have to live with others and morality is about how we treat others. We don't think "oh I will be good because it will enhance my survival". We think "I will do good for the sake of doing good", "I will do the right thing because its the right thing to do".
The evidence shows its more than that. Mere cooperation doesn't account for how we do more than cooperate. Cooperation to survive could mean anything. Communist China has survived quite well for many years based on forced cooperation.But you wouldn't say it was the moral thing to do.
Because God is the Law. He is the Good and Christ is the personification of that Good.
Jesus is more than a person, He also claims to be the "Way and Life". Jesus speaks of a Truth about living a good life but also a life to the optimum as opposed to other ways of living. So the Truth claim is a representation of a reality we are all searching for.
We all seek truth despite claims there is no truth and there are many claims about what is truth. Christ is saying I am that Truth.
That's why I think though morals and truth are abstract ideas we embody them and we become those ideas. Christ spoke about being good (just, truthful) didn't come from what was on the outside but what's in your heart.
That is why I think moral truths are like laws or facts because we live them (embody them). But if we reject Gods truth then we will take on some other truth. So in one way or another we will all adhere to some truth based on a belief and this will be lived out in reality.
For Christians its not them telling you what the Truth is. Its them pointing to Christ words and teachings that tell people what the Truth is. In other words they are acknowledging that they don't know the truth and are incapable of finding it without Christ.The question is, why should we depend on you to tell us what that truth is?
Given the number of variant claims about what Christ said, it doesn't sound like a very reliable method.For Christians its not them telling you what the Truth is. Its them pointing to Christ words and teachings that tell people what the Truth is. In other words they are acknowledging that they don't know the truth and are incapable of finding it without Christ.
So then it goes back to Christ Himself, His words and Teachings and whether they are what Christ claims them to be.
the problem is it seems there are more than one way to determine what is truth. For example there are scientific facts/truths (inductive truths). Well that's what many claim that methodological naturalism is not only describing reality but telling us what it is as well, that reality is only physical. Then there is a narrative truths, postmodernists use this one to claim this the only truth. Then there's epistemic truths which about how we come to know what is true or real, experiential truth and deductive truths.Truth doesn't have any hierarchy. It's indifferent to values.
Actually I think postmodernism does emphasize the subjective/relative because its centered around the person and group and how they see the world. Any truth or fact is seen as just one way of seeing the world because there are multiple interpretation which are all equal. In fact some postmodernist claim the science method is oppressive because it pushes one way of knowing and oppresses other ways of knowing reality. Because there are multiple ways of knowing this makes the subject or collect central to how we see the world.That's not really truth, and even postmodernists don't believe that
Not just a truth claim but a claim that its the only truth. [/quote] Not just a truth claim but a claim that its the only truth and all other truths are wrong.Right, a truth claim.
That's not the point. Other religions can be intolerant of lies but the Christian belief says that its the only truth, the only God. Other religions don't claim that and therefore open the door for other possible gods and truths which defeats the purpose of the Truth being "one determination and not many".Do those other religions claim to be tolerant of lies?
One can breach the law of gravity by jumping off a building and will suffer the consequence. Just like one can breach the law of murder and suffer the consequence. Its just another kind of fact or law that is part of reality.No...they aren't facts. One cannot violate the law of gravity. One can violate any number of moral prescriptions.
I don't get what you mean. We know the difference between right and wrong, we have a conscience and free will. That's the difference between us and animals and robots. That's unless you take the mechanistic view and we are just mechanism and process that dictate what happens and who we are and we are not responsible for our actions.I don't see a lot of people dropping over from the exhaustion of "doing good".
My point is mere cooperation doesn't explain morality so its inadequate. Therefore we need to look at other reasons and one of those is people inherently know right from wrong. Morality is about how we treat others. You cannot have a moral interaction with a rock for example. So just the fact that we have to live with others creates moral values. Social norms are a good example.I don't see what this has to do with my statement.
I disagree because unlike beauty which is in the eye of the beholder moral truths are real in that we embody them and live them out and have been proven to bring stability over 1,000s of years and have not changed.God is truth, law, justice, good....and probably something else abstract and nebulous.
Sorry, but claiming to be truth is like claiming to be beauty. It's just not worth engaging with...it's not just a claim, it's an empty one.
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