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Is There More to Atheism than Lack of Belief?

DogmaHunter

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I don't think you realize how much a lack of belief in something can effect the world. Everything you don't believe in effects what you do.

You have it backwards. Your beliefs inform your actions, yes. Your lack of belief however, does not. It might exclude some behaviour. But it will not cause specific other behaviour.

Again, it all comes back to that "a" in atheism. It means "not".

When you know I am an atheist, then you also know that I:
- do NOT pray
- do NOT attend church sermons
- do NOT consider gods to play a part in my life
- do NOT consider gods to be an answer to any question
- am NOT a theistic creationist

From there, you can rationally conclude a few other things, yes.
When it comes to explaining the universe and life, you can safely assume that I will be going with the scientific explanation. On the other hand though, MOST theists do that as well.

In any case, what will inform my actions will be OTHER beliefs. Actually POSITIVE beliefs. Too put it simplisticly: when I eat an apple, I'm not eating that apple because "i do NOT feel like eating a steak". No. I eat that apple because I feel like eating an apple.

So my worldview, my opinions, my actions, etc will be informed by things I DO believe. Not by things I DON'T believe.

And the only thing you can truelly KNOW about what I DO believe, is that gods won't be included in those beliefs.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Secular government seems to follow from atheism. Because atheism is not associated with religion so separation of church and state serves an atheists interests politically.



Yes captain obvious. If we don't believe in gods, we'ld rather not have myths about gods mixed with the organizing of society and the law.

On the other hand though, you DO realise that secularism was established by theists, right? That theists in the first world value secular government as well, right?

Or would you perhaps prefer medieval theocracies with anti-science book burnings? You don't value science? You don't value education?

Moral relativism seems to follow from atheism. Because atheism does not believe in a god-figure which lays down objective moral laws.

Neither do theists. At least not in the civilised world.


These causes are not just random correlations to me.

Correlation does not imply causation. And ignoring the correlation of the same things with theism, doesn't help your case either.
 
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Ana the Ist

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There's a thread in this section where several atheists mention that they attend church sometimes. Just fyi.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Just out of interest's sake. Do any of you (Gadarene, Huntun, Ana the 1st, madaz, Chany or Cute Tink) disagree with the following statements:

I hope you don't mind me having a go as well.

I reject supernatural claims and believe in only natural phenomena as explanations

Not like it is written here.
It kind of implies that I have already decided on the answers without asking the questions. That's not what I do. Yes, I have rejected every supernatural claim that has ever been presented to me. It's likely that this trend will continue. But I don't reject it at face value. I reject it due to lack of evidence. Show me valid evidence and I'll accept it.

As for the "only natural phenomena as explanations", that doesn't make much sense. Phenomena are not the explanations themselves. They are the things that require explanations. And so far, science has proven the best tool to do so. It just so happens that the explanations always turn out to be natural.

I believe in secular government

"believe"?

Yes, governments should be secular. This has however nothing to do with my atheist, but everything with how different governmental constructs perform. Look at today's world and history. Numbers don't lie. Life in a theocracy is not pleasant. Secular democracy ensures the most freedom.

I do not highly value any religious texts

False. Religion is a major part of human history. Entire cultures have been shaped around it. Religious texts (not just the bible) are of incredible historical, cultural and artistic value.

I am politically liberal or left-leaning

I don't put political labels on my forehead. Sometimes I find myself agreeing with lefties, sometimes with the right. It depends.

I am pro-choice

I don't make sweeping statements. In case of abortion, I'ld say it depends on a case by case basis and how far the pregnancy is already progressed etc.

I value higher education

Who doesn't?

I value the scientific method

Who doesn't?

I believe that we make our own purpose

Not necessarily. Sometimes people just roll into things without ever making the decision themselves. In such cases, one could say that "purpose" kind of emerges from the situation at hand.

I'll rephrase your statement into something I can agree with:
I don't believe some cosmic agent is bestowing purpose on people, or that such a thing as "cosmic purpose" exists.

I believe morality is not objective but is either the product of evolution or is ultimately relativistic

I consider morality to be pseudo-objective, because it is geared towards a specific outcome. It's not constant or static, because we constantly learn new things and our knowledge informs us on the consequences of actions and decisions.
I think it's a logical consequence of living in a social group.

I believe in evolution as a meta-narrative to how we came to be human

What do you mean with "meta-narrative"?
Evolution is the process by which species change over time, yes.
All species are the product of evolution and we are no different.

I do not believe in a soul

I'm an atheist. Which means I don't accept theistic claims.

Because I mean, you guys are criticizing me for stereotyping and making generalization...but do any of you actually disagree with my assessment of atheism-as-an-ideology?

Yes.

We can talk semantics and definitions and reductio ad absurdums all day, but in the "real world", do most atheists agree?

We aren't talking about "most" here. We are talking about ALL.
The only thing ALL athiests have in common is what actually defines atheism. The lack of belief in theistic claims. That is the only definition that actually includes all atheists without exception.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I'm sorry, your response here got lost in the mix when I was replying to other posts. You claimed you wouldn't respond to "such ridiculousness" unless your life or freedom were threatened. The point I was trying to make in the scenario described was that your life was being greatly affected by that ridiculousness. In many different ways, some very general and non-specific and some that were very personal. I honestly don't think you're so passive as to let a belief you find ridiculous to affect your life so greatly. At some point, you'll advocate what you believe to be true in the hopes that whatever it is you don't believe in will stop affecting your life. Please don't take this personally, it's a sentiment that many many christians say and none believe. How many christians on CF do you suppose lack a belief in the existence of evolution? How many of these same christians are on CF trying their very hardest to disprove evolution? Why? If they don't believe it...they should just ignore it, right? More importantly, would you tell them that they should just ignore it since they don't believe it exists? What about global warming and all the christians who don't believe it exists? Should they just passively be quiet as well? Is there nothing in your life that you don't believe in that you would argue against in certain circumstances? What if your child or wife told you one day that they would now be worshipping some pagan god that you don't believe in? Would you still sit there quietly as they did their rituals and chants...day after day?

If that is the case, and I doubt it is...I think it's more likely you just hadn't thought of it very hard when you made that statement, but if that is the case then I feel sorry for you. There's nothing wrong with expressing what you believe is true. If what you believe is false, then you'll lose the argument/debate most of the time anyway. I imagine that's why they got rid of the apologetics section on this forum.
 
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Ana the Ist

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The other part that disagree with is, obviously, the other part you wrote lol. You're correct in saying that an atheist shouldn't advocate for an ideology which they think is inherent in atheism. The reason for that is no ideology is inherent in atheism. As another poster pointed out, a lot of atheists agree with many of the things you listed. None of these beliefs, however, arise because of a belief in atheism. Atheism doesn't make evolution true...scientific evidence does that. Atheism doesn't make relativism true. Now that I think of it, the more abstract a belief is (like relativism or rationalism) the less one is likely to be able to prove it true.

I wouldn't hesitate to explain to another atheist who thinks some ideology is a part of atheism why he/she is wrong. Atheists have a wide and often unrelated range of beliefs.
 
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KCfromNC

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I actually had to look up scientism in order to respond to this, as I didn't really know what it entailed. Now that I've actually read what it's about, I can honestly say I don't agree with it.

In general, neither does anyone else. On average, it is a strawman made up by people who object to the use of actual science to disembowel their pet beliefs.
 
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Gadarene

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In general, neither does anyone else. On average, it is a strawman made up by people who object to the use of actual science to disembowel their pet beliefs.

^this.

I've never seen anyone accused of scientism who actually thinks that science can explain everything.
 
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Received

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I can only answer your question with another question: why don't you spend half your day discounting leprechauns, square circles, puppy-kittens, and intelligent Sarah Palins?


I think they do, and I don't need to pull any no-true-atheist cards because it's mostly a matter of implicit behavior, not explicitly stated ideology. Few atheists (but not none) are going to be like, "well, yeah, atheism also means being reasonable," but plenty more atheists are going to associate themselves with rationalism, scientism, whatever without distinguishing this from their atheism. It's like the silly preps we remember from high school: they never say they value acting superficially as part of their prephood, but they act consistently in such a way where superficiality is part and parcel of prephood. Same thing with atheists and rationalism, or humanism, or scientism (just as there are many different types of theists based on values and ideology, so there are different types of atheists).
 
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Received

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I never said atheism makes anything like evolution or relativism true. And you're describing what I call negative atheism. I'm saying there's another type of atheism that implicitly or explicitly associates values and ideas with one's atheism. Appealing to the textbook definition of atheism is fallacious here; we're not talking about textbook atheists, but about atheists who attribute something more to atheism than just atheism (lack of belief in deities). That's why I'm using another term: positive atheism.

I wouldn't hesitate to explain to another atheist who thinks some ideology is a part of atheism why he/she is wrong. Atheists have a wide and often unrelated range of beliefs.

Good. That doesn't mean there isn't a type of atheism (positive atheism) that is running amuck.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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This is demonstrably false. Sam Harris wrote a whole book on his views on an objective moral system.
 
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Chany

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This is demonstrably false. Sam Harris wrote a whole book on his views on an objective moral system.

I'm reading through it right now. It's an updated version of utilitarianism, with much needed word changes and a focus upon objective facts. I wish he went more in depth into the meta-ethics of it in the philosophical sense (such as, why be moral), but maybe I haven't gotten there yet.
 
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leftrightleftrightleft

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Thanks for the reply.
 
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leftrightleftrightleft

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Fair enough.


Yea, same goes for pretty much any label. No group is homogeneous.

But you asked if there is more to atheism than simply lack of belief. And I contend there is because there are definite trends among self-identifying atheists that go beyond random correlation.


Just to be clear, I'm not trying to demonize anyone.

Labels, generalizations and stereotypes are actually really useful because as humans, we don't have time to get to know each person we interact with on a personal level. Evolution has taught us to make quick judgments about a person and we do it constantly all the time. Its also a way to categorize people so we can remember them.

"Generalizations" and "stereotypes" are seen as a terrible thing it seems, especially on this forum. People get all upset if you stereotype them...even if the person doing the stereotyping is correct!

Atheist: "I'm an atheist."
Me: "Oh, so you're likely politically liberal because that's a fairly statistically reasonable assumption."
Atheist: "Don't stereotype me! Not all atheists are liberal you know!"
Me: "Oh my bad, so you're conservative?"
Atheist: "No...no I'm liberal."

I don't know. I think labels are useful because they can give you a lot of information very quickly. If someone tells you they are a Christian, that gives you a lot of information about what they likely believe. You might be wrong, but at least it gives you some information as to where to place your reference point.

I think the same goes with atheism. And that's why I said there's more to atheism than just lack of belief. If someone tells me they are an atheist, that gives me a reference point and lot of information about what they are likely to agree or disagree with. Sure, I might be wrong and there is always nuance as each individual is unique.

And if someone doesn't want a label (and the associated stereotypes attached), then don't use the label.

Stereotypes are useful if used properly: as reasonable statistical assumptions.

I mean, if you have 100 atheists, how many do you think believe in the supernatural?

Stereotypes can be statistical in that, if I meet an atheist I can be 90-100% sure that they do not believe in supernatural agents or causes.

I'm not out to demonize anyone. I'm just using the information that I've seen, read, heard or experienced to make a synthesis about the myriad number of labels people apply to themselves.

Isn't that what everyone does all the time? Often subconciously?
 
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Huntun

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So the entity or religion one refrains from believing in or adopting has to be old and popular before refraining from believing or adopting it itself necessarily becomes it's own special ideology.

Do you have any other example of a lack of belief in something necessarily counting as an ideology or is it only lack of belief in God?

I have a hobby known as astampcollectioning. That means I don't collect stamps. This lack of stamp collection is necessarily a hobby in and of itself because so many other people do collect stamps.
 
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Huntun

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I disagree with a few. I highly value the Daodejing and the Zhuangzi. The Diamond Sutra is nice too. I believe it's possible certain events that are often labeled "supernatural" may exist/take place but I reject the word "supernatural" itself as nonsensical. In terms of political persuasion I'm a centrist with an interest in what is occasionally called Radical Centrism and I also value pragmatism over ideology.

Ultimately what I believe shouldn't alter the meaning of the term atheism which is very limited in scope though.

I'm not sure why you put some of those statements as indicative of atheism either. Many theists would be likely to agree with some of those.. Who, save maybe a fringe element, wouldn't want the government to be secular? Some theists are even naturalists too like the process theology people.
 
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leftrightleftrightleft

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Ok. I think I finally see your point of view. I think we have been talking past each other for the last 8 pages of this thread.

When I read the question: "Is there more to atheism than lack of belief?", I thought you were asking if there is more associated with the idea of atheism than purely lack of belief.

In that case, I would argue yes. I think there are ideas and views and philosophies that flow out of atheism and thus atheists are statistically more likely to be a secularist, naturalist etc if you are also an atheist.

But you weren't really asking that question. You were asking if there is anything necessary for you to be an atheist beyond lack of belief.

My answer to that is: no.

There is no additional criteria for you to be an atheist beyond lack of belief in god(s).


So we were getting stuck on "necessity" versus "effects".

I think atheism causes certain views and philosophies to come about and thus atheists are statistically more likely to hold certain views.

However, there is nothing "required" of an atheist beyond lack of belief in god(s) (which is just the definition of atheism...). It seems a silly question though. Of course there is nothing required of atheism beyond the definition of atheism...just like there's nothing "required" of a Christian beyond the definition of Christian.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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As far as your view of scientism is concerned, I agree with you, although Rosenberg's argument for how scientism plays a role in his brand of atheism is a little more complex than what we are discussing here. With that said, I won't belabor Rosenberg's tangent since your OP is focusing just on atheism as an isolated concept.

Essentially, I understand your view on atheism; I 'get' it. Atheism isn't itself a worldview. Rather, it is an aspect of one's perceptions about the world, and an atheist's sense of 'meaning' in the world may or may not be affected by his atheism. It seems that we can definitely speak of the existence of varying kinds, degrees, or nuances of 'atheism.'
 
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