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Is There Mercy Beyond The Grave?

Der Alte

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I do not believe that there is mercy beyond the grave. I would like to see the primary, clearest verses which proponents of Universal Reconciliation [UR] believe support their beliefs.
Here are three vss. which I believe totally refute UR.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Where is a verse where Jesus, Himself, is speaking and says "I now know you, welcome to my kingdom." or words to that effect?
More vss. where Jesus, Himself, speaking

John 3:15-18
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Matthew 25:46
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.



 
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Philip_B

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Whilst I am not a universalist per se, I also have great difficulty in the presumption that says to God and this is the earthbound line over which your mercy may not cross. God is before time, God is after time, Gid transcends all times, and there is no measure I see by which I should presume to limits God's ability to act in the divine mercy which is his nature.

The reasons why I am not a universalist are numerous some of which you have identified. Essentially the Gospel do have some urgency. Univeraslism robs the Gospel of that urgency.
 
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com7fy8

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I do not believe that there is mercy beyond the grave.
"God resists the proud," we have in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5.

His resistance can help to keep a proud person from getting in as much trouble as he or she could. So, sinners have God's mercy, now, in the form of His resistance, I can see. And this will effect how things are, later, after the person dies. So, His mercy now is also for after a person dies, if His resistance now helps keep the proud person from being in trouble after the person dies.

However > each of us will reap what we sow. And what you reap is a lot more than those tiny little seeds you have sown.

"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life." (Galatians 6:7-8)

So, even if there is some way of mercy for evil people after they die, they will reap what they have been sowing. They will have "corruption" of Satan's nasty spirit inside themselves > "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience," we have in Ephesians 2:2. They have the character to give in to Satanic stuff in their thinking and feelings and emotions and reacting and how they relate with other people. Their character makes them available to and weak enough to suffer in unforgiveness, bitterness, self-righteous criticizing of others, dominating drives for pleasure, arguing and complaining, and other anti-love and anti-peace and anti-joy stuff. So, their own character is a major problem, which makes them anti-Jesus so they can not benefit from being with Him and enjoying and appreciating Him and His family people.

So, in the day of judgment, even if God were to have mercy on them somehow . . . their own character would have them even horrified to be with Jesus . . . like we see how demons were so upset at seeing Jesus. And those people called for Jesus' blood to be on them and their children (Matthew 27:25); they were right there in the presence of their own Messiah and their own character made them so available to Satan.

So . . . instead of giving attention only or mainly to what happens to evil people after they die . . . now is our time to seek God for how He alone is able to correct our character to be like Jesus > I would say Hebrews 12:4-14 means this; and I think 1 John 4:17-18 means, that His love in us changes us to become like Christ, now.
 
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Der Alte

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So . . . instead of giving attention only or mainly to what happens to evil people after they die . . . now is our time to seek God for how He alone is able to correct our character to be like Jesus > I would say Hebrews 12:4-14 means this; and I think 1 John 4:17-18 means, that His love in us changes us to become like Christ, now.
But there are so many people saying "Don't worry you can live like the devil and still be saved. Everybody will be saved in the end righteous and righteous alike, no matter what."
 
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com7fy8

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But there are so many people saying "Don't worry you can live like the devil and still be saved. Everybody will be saved in the end righteous and righteous alike, no matter what."
Our real character can effect what we are ready to believe, and how we choose to interpret the scriptures.

Plus, our character meanwhile is effecting if unforgiveness and worry and arguing and other anti-love things can have power to control us.

But if we are submitting to Jesus and therefore trusting Him >

"you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:29)

So, God is committed to changing us out of any wrong stuff, now. So, it is wise to trust Him to do this, and have this hope for anyone else, versus a false hope.
 
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disciple Clint

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I do not believe that there is mercy beyond the grave. I would like to see the primary, clearest verses which proponents of Universal Reconciliation [UR] believe support their beliefs.
Here are three vss. which I believe totally refute UR.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Where is a verse where Jesus, Himself, is speaking and says "I now know you, welcome to my kingdom." or words to that effect?
More vss. where Jesus, Himself, speaking

John 3:15-18
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Matthew 25:46
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Some early thoughts: Universalism: Universal Salvation and Reconciliation
 
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2PhiloVoid

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But there are so many people saying "Don't worry you can live like the devil and still be saved. Everybody will be saved in the end righteous and righteous alike, no matter what."

I don't know about that. Do we know how many people really say this? I'm not sure all that many do, at least not here on CF.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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if universalism is true then why not live like the devil and sin all you want ?

in the end you are saved so what difference does it make ?

plus the concept makes a complete mockery of living a holy life, pursuing Christ and living for Him since those that don't get the same exact reward in the end. the concept is contrary to the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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if universalism is true then why not live like the devil and sin all you want ?

in the end you are saved so what difference does it make ?

plus the concept makes a complete mockery of living a holy life, pursuing Christ and living for Him since those that don't get the same exact reward in the end. the concept is contrary to the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

Why are you saying this to me, JIY?
 
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Der Alte

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But there are so many people saying "Don't worry you can live like the devil and still be saved. Everybody will be saved in the end righteous and righteous alike, no matter what."

I don't know about that. Do we know how many people really say this? I'm not sure all that many do, at least not here on CF.
Enough that there are 5 threads on UR on the first page of this forum. And one, which kind of disappeared, the OP insisted that only people who believed in UR respond.
 
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Der Alte

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I took a quick glance at your link. One of the fallacies I quickly noticed was the ubiquitous "'aionios' does not mean eternal it means age etc." The fact that "aionios" is translated "world" three (3) times in the N.T. not mean that is the definition.
How do I explain it? Easy! It is being used figuratively. Now my study of every occurrence of the word "aionios" in the N.T. This study has never been conclusively shown to be incorrect
“aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 5 times in the N.T.
……….….………eternal 42 times in the N.T.
……….….………everlasting 25 times in the N.T.
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, Jesus never uses “aionios” to refer something ordinary/mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
= = = = = = = = = =
In twenty four [24] of the following verses aion and aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “aion/aionios” never means eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.”

[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos]
In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.
In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.
[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.
In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.
[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.
[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.

[Character Limit. Continued next post]
 
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Der Alte

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[Previous post continued]
Paul used the word “aionios” eleven [11] times. It is translated “eternal/everlasting” 20 times and world 3 times. In the following 12 verses Paul defines “aionios” as eternal.
[11]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
[12]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.
In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[13]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[14]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
[15]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]
In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[16]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[17]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios]
In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[18]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios]
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
[19]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life.
In this verse Paul parallels “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
[20]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen.
In this verse Paul parallels “aion” with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.
In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[23]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.
In this verse “aion” is parallel with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite period” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[24]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity”
[25]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”
[26]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
= = = = = = =
Footnotes ου μη/ou mé
●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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But there are so many people saying "Don't worry you can live like the devil and still be saved. Everybody will be saved in the end righteous and righteous alike, no matter what."
I still do not understand why we think we can only accept God while this body lives. We are not our body, we are spirit people that have to inhabit this mortal body for a time. Does God save our body or our spirit? If our spirit is what God is after then why do we think he can only pursue us while we are in the body . No scripture says that God does not pursue us once this body dies. I know in Hebrews it says “ it’s appointed one for man to die then the judgement “ but I do not equate the judgement and the punishment are the same. If the judgement is did you follow God while in the body either you did or you did not . then the judgement. For those who have followed God there is no punishment but for those who did not the punishment is the lake of fire. (For us UR we believe it’s a refinery till all is stripped away and people accept Gods love they do pay for there actions but no for eternity. This is the story of Apokatastasis.
 
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Der Alte

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I still do not understand why we think we can only accept God while this body lives. We are not our body, we are spirit people that have to inhabit this mortal body for a time. Does God save our body or our spirit? If our spirit is what God is after then why do we think he can only pursue us while we are in the body . No scripture says that God does not pursue us once this body dies. I know in Hebrews it says “ it’s appointed one for man to die then the judgement “ but I do not equate the judgement and the punishment are the same. If the judgement is did you follow God while in the body either you did or you did not . then the judgement. For those who have followed God there is no punishment but for those who did not the punishment is the lake of fire. (For us UR we believe it’s a refinery till all is stripped away and people accept Gods love they do pay for there actions but no for eternity. This is the story of Apokatastasis.
There is not one single verse spoken by the Father, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, saying or implying that anyone can be saved after death.
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Psalms 88:10-11
10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
1Thessalonians 4:13
(13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Ephesians 2:12
(12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
JPS Prov 24:20
(20) For there will be no future to the evil man, the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.
Psalms 115:17
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.


 
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2PhiloVoid

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Enough that there are 5 threads on UR on the first page of this forum. And one, which kind of disappeared, the OP insisted that only people who believed in UR respond.

Yeah, I get that. But the threads here on CF have all been created by the same, small handful of people. So, I don't feel threatened by it all in the least.

Now, if caustic skeptics were to show up on CF like they used to do, then I might be a little more concerned. However, where other Christians are the focus, I think it's enough to suggest to them that they can do themselves a service by studying Biblical Exegesis and Hermeneutics, rather than just going all "intuitional" when they attempt to read the Bible.

Y'know, what would really be useful, I think, would be for all of us to not go at each other, dallying around on superficial, singular verses of the Bible, but to choose a book (or two for the sake of comparison) on Biblical Hermeneutics and have a deep discussion on the various praxes we can find among scholars. But as it is, I see no takers here on CF for that kind of thing (or on a lot of topics for that matter).

I find this state of affairs among Christians to be kind of a sad deal, really. :(
 
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Jeff Saunders

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There is not one single verse spoken by the Father, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, saying or implying that anyone can be saved after death.
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Psalms 88:10-11
10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
1Thessalonians 4:13
(13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Ephesians 2:12
(12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
JPS Prov 24:20
(20) For there will be no future to the evil man, the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.
Psalms 115:17
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Then you must believe that there are multiple paths to the Father. Jesus said “ no man comes to the Father but through me” so all the OT people had to accept him after the mortal body was dead. If God can do that then why can he not do it later? Unless there are multiple paths to God and Jesus got it wrong.
 
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RickReads

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Then you must believe that there are multiple paths to the Father. Jesus said “ no man comes to the Father but through me” so all the OT people had to accept him after the mortal body was dead. If God can do that then why can he not do it later? Unless there are multiple paths to God and Jesus got it wrong.

Jesus told the thief on the cross they were going to a place He called Paradise. Everyone in Paradise became eligible for salvation while they had been alive. They were all just waiting for Jesus to pay the bill.
 
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Der Alte

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Then you must believe that there are multiple paths to the Father. Jesus said “ no man comes to the Father but through me” so all the OT people had to accept him after the mortal body was dead. If God can do that then why can he not do it later? Unless there are multiple paths to God and Jesus got it wrong.
How does that respond to my post?
"There is not one single verse spoken by the Father, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, saying or implying that anyone can be saved after death."​
 
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