Is there even an "..ism" known to Christians that's perfectly true?

[DavidPT]

It's hard to tell what you were intending to say here because you're all over the place. Is it your point here that anyone who ever has the mark of the beast has to be alive at the same time the first vial is poured out? If so, I disagree with that. This would only apply to those who have the mark of the beast and are alive at the time. The only reason you would think otherwise is if you assume the beast is only active in the future, but I disagree with that.

Since the first vial involves being poured out on those with the mark of the beast, obviously the first vial can't get poured out on people living in different eras of time if it is not until the day of the Lord, a future event, when any of the vials get poured out on anyone. The text then lied to us if there are others from earlier eras of time that had the mark of the beast, and worshipped his image, yet no vial was ever poured out on them.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.


Obviously, no one outside of the era of time involving vial 1 can have the mark of the beast nor able to worship his image. For one, regardless what Revelation 13:11-18 might look like when it is being fulfilled, that until it is fullfilled, in the meantime there is no mark to have or not have, there is no image to worship or not worship.

Revelation 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Obviously, these lying wonders fit with what is recorded in 2 Thessalonians 2:9, for one.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


This is involving the final days of this age, the era of time the first vial will be involving. Nothing recorded in 2 Thessalonians 2:9 is involving events since the beginning of time nor is it involving events spanning the past 2000 years. And since what is recorded in Revelation 13:13-14 is involving what is recorded in 2 Thessalonians 2:9, the same has to be true about those verses as well, that they are involving the era of time 2 Thessalonians 2:9 is involving, and that 2 Thessalonians 2:9 is involving the era of time the first vial will be involving. That's how all the dots are connecting, so to speak. We can either ignore that or we can accept it. I choose to do the latter myself.

The saints recorded in Revelation 20:4 who are martyred for refusing to worship his image, refusing to take his mark, obviously has to be meaning during the era of time when there are two choices to make. Refuse to worship it's image, your fate after Christ returns is what is recorded in Revelation 20:4---and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Don't refuse to worship it's image, your fate before Christ returns(meaning the first 6 vials) and when He returns (meaning the 7th vial) is what is recorded in the last 7 vials.

Amil can't explain using Scripture to support it, how and when those recorded in Revelation 20:4 which did not worship it's image, are martyred since Amil apparently denies it has anything to do with what is recorded in Revelation 13 nor 2 Thessalonians 2.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Since the first vial involves being poured out on those with the mark of the beast, obviously the first vial can't get poured out on people living in different eras of time if it is not until the day of the Lord, a future event, when any of the vials get poured out on anyone. The text then lied to us if there are others from earlier eras of time that had the mark of the beast, and worshipped his image, yet no vial was ever poured out on them.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.


Obviously, no one outside of the era of time involving vial 1 can have the mark of the beast nor able to worship his image. For one, regardless what Revelation 13:11-18 might look like when it is being fulfilled, that until it is fullfilled, in the meantime there is no mark to have or not have, there is no image to worship or not worship.

It is your opinion that the mark of the beast is only a future thing. I don't share that opinion, so I'm not obligated to agree with the conclusions you draw because of having that opinion.

Revelation 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Obviously, these lying wonders fit with what is recorded in 2 Thessalonians 2:9, for one.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


This is involving the final days of this age, the era of time the first vial will be involving. Nothing recorded in 2 Thessalonians 2:9 is involving events since the beginning of time nor is it involving events spanning the past 2000 years. And since what is recorded in Revelation 13:13-14 is involving what is recorded in 2 Thessalonians 2:9, the same has to be true about those verses as well, that they are involving the era of time 2 Thessalonians 2:9 is involving, and that 2 Thessalonians 2:9 is involving the era of time the first vial will be involving. That's how all the dots are connecting, so to speak. We can either ignore that or we can accept it. IO choose to do the latter myself.

I appreciate that you are trying to interpret scripture with scripture, but it's never nearly as simple as you always try to make it out to be.

There is one way in which you did not interpret scripture with scripture. In your view what is described in Revelation 13 occurs when the beast comes out of the bottomless pit, right? And you see that as the beginning of a future 42 months time period (literal or not is beside the point - point is that you see is as a future time period). Yet, in Revelation 11, it shows the beast ascending from the bottomless pit AFTER the 42 months/1260 days time period (Rev 11:7). So, how do you reconcile that with your understanding of Revelation 13?

The saints recorded in Revelation 20:4 who are martyred for refusing to worship his image, refusing to take his mark, obviously has to be meaning during the era of time when there are two choices to make. Refuse to worship it's image, your fate after Christ returns is what is recorded in Revelation 20:4---and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Which you believe only refers to the future. But, I believe Revelation 20 indicates that this happens during a time period in which Christ reigns with His followers who are priests. According to Revelation 1:5-6, that time period began long ago already.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Don't refuse to worship it's image, your fate before Christ returns(meaning the first 6 vials) and when He returns (meaning the 7th vial) is what is recorded in the last 7 vials.

Amil can't explain using Scripture to support it, how and when those recorded in Revelation 20:4 which did not worship it's image, are martyred since Amil apparently denies it has anything to do with what is recorded in Revelation 13 nor 2 Thessalonians 2.

I don't deny that it has anything to do with what is recorded in Revelation 13 nor 2 Thess 2. But, my understanding of those passages differs from yours in some ways. Don't tell me I can't explain something without even giving me the opportunity to do so first. That is ridiculous. I am not obligated to agree with your futurist perspective of the book of Revelation. I believe it sometimes refers to things that are ongoing during the New Testament era while you believe everything except maybe Revelation 2-3 is future, which I believe is a very narrow minded way of looking at it (similar to preterists seeing it as all in the past).

Earlier, I already indicated a flaw in your thinking because of what it indicates regarding the timing of the beast ascending from the pit in relation to the 42 months. I believe the two witnesses symbolically reference the church during the New Testament era. So, they witnesses during the symbolic 42 months/1260 days and only when that time is over does their testimony and witness end and the loosing of the beast (and dragon, imo) occur. So, Revelation 13 describes things that occur throughout the New Testament era (42 months). There has been a great deal of persecution against the church during that time and deception has occurred. Yet, this all occurs while the beast is still in the pit, if you accept what Revelation 11 indicates, which is that the beast is not loosed until the 42 months ends.

You reference 2nd Thess 2. Paul said in 2 Thess 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.". That reminds me of 1 John 2:18 where John indicated there were already many antichrists in his day. So, Revelation 13 is describing the mystery of iniquity that was already at work long ago as evidenced by the many antichrists that were already around back then and such. There has always been deception, wickedness and persecution in the world. The beast and the dragon's binding in the pit has nothing to do with them being incapacitated and the world being completely freed from their influence. It has to do with their power and influence being restrained and then later loosed. What were they restrained from doing? From keeping the light of the gospel from shining on the world. Coming back to 2nd Thess 2, Paul indicated that the mystery of iniquity was already at work in his day, but was still restrained until the restraining influence of the One who restrains is taken out of the way.

In order to prove that your view is correct you would have to show that Revelation 13 is describing a time period where deception, wickedness and persecution are at a higher level than before the time that came before it because even you agree that those things exist even before that time. And you would need to somehow reconcile your understanding that Revelation 13 described the beast coming out of the pit at the beginning of the 42 months with what it indicates in Revelation 11 which has the beast coming out of the pit when the 42 months end.

Hopefully, you can at least see from what I said here that it's not nearly as simple as you make this all out to be.

 

[DavidPT]

It is your opinion that the mark of the beast is only a future thing. I don't share that opinion, so I'm not obligated to agree with the conclusions you draw because of having that opinion.

I'll try and take this on for now while I'm considering the rest of your post, where I at least noticed that you appeared to maybe make some valid points. Need more time to reflect on that first.

Then you should be able to provide Scripture that supports that there is already a mark, already an image to worship involving one of the heads that has a deadly wound that is healed, before it even has a deadly wound that is healed. After all, the text below plainly states that the image is involving one of the heads that has a deadly wound that is healed.

Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads



The text does not say--that they should make an image to the beast--it says---that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live

You seem to ignore the portion I have underlined, as if that part is not relevant, in regards to these meant in Revelation 20:4----which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

In light of what is recorded in Revelation 13 above, explain why it would not be reasonable to understand that as such---which had not worshipped the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands?

Explain why it would not be reasonable to take when these are initially martyred to be involving the same era of time Revelation 13:14-16 is involving? If none of those verses explain when they are martyred, what verses do then? You seem to be mainly working off speculation here rather than Scripture, thus doesn't help prove anything one way or the other, unless you can provide clear Scripture that explain when these saints per Revelation 20:4 I submitted, are martyred for the reasons they are. 2 of those reasons being, they refuse to refuse to worship it's image, they refuse to take it's mark. What image? What mark? How about the ones recorded in Revelation 13 unless you can provide better Scriptures instead?

There is no way that what is recorded in Revelation 13, that either satan nor the beast can be in the pit at the time. And if the era of time Revelation 13 is involving is the same era of time the saints in question per Revelation 20:4 are martyred during, what then? How can the beast rise out of the pit after the thousand years if it already ascended out of the pit in order to be the reason behind the martyring of the saints per Revelation 20:4, the ones that refused to worship his image?

 

[DavidPT]

Which you believe only refers to the future. But, I believe Revelation 20 indicates that this happens during a time period in which Christ reigns with His followers who are priests. According to Revelation 1:5-6, that time period began long ago already.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

And since John took notes first, then compiled them into a finished book later, where is one place he determined what he did in verse 6? How about here, for one?

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


Notice what that passage doesn't say---and we shall reign on the earth and we shall reign in heaven. Yet, Amils, such as you, apparently need this reigning to also be involving doing that in heaven upon death and prior to being bodily raised. Except Revelation 5:10 makes zero mention of reigning in heaven as kings and priests as well. Which then begs the question, since the reigning involves doing that on the earth, is that meaning prior to death? Or is that meaning following death, as in a bodily resurrection once He returns in the end of this age? Or could it perhaps be involving both? What it isn't involving, is reigning in any sense in heaven if is indicating it occurs on the earth. I can't see anyone conflating the earth with heaven, therefore, no one should be assuming Revelation 5:10 is also involving reigning in heaven if they are sticking to what the text plainly says.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

And since John took notes first, then compiled them into a finished book later, where is one place he determined what he did in verse 6? How about here, for one?

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


Notice what that passage doesn't say---and we shall reign on the earth and we shall reign in heaven.

Why would we stop reigning just because of physical death? I'm becoming more and more convinced that you believe in soul sleep, which is a false doctrine.

Yet, Amils, such as you, apparently need this reigning to also be involving doing that in heaven upon death and prior to being bodily raised.

Do people die spiritually when they die physically/bodily? No, right? So, why would anything change in regards to a person's status with Christ just because their body has died?

Except Revelation 5:10 makes zero mention of reigning in heaven as kings and priests as well.

The way you interpret scripture simply makes no sense whatsoever. Does every passage related to a certain event or topic contain all of the details related to said event or topic? Of course not. So, why act as if that is the case?

Which then begs the question, since the reigning involves doing that on the earth, is that meaning prior to death?

Of course. Is that not what is indicated in Revelation 1:5-6? Was John, who was obviously alive at the time, not including himself among those who had been made priests in His kingdom? Yes. So, does that not mean the reign is occurring on the earth already prior to death? Yes.

Or is that meaning following death, as in a bodily resurrection once He returns in the end of this age?

Why would it mean that when he already indicated that he was among those who had been made priests and were reigning with Christ while he was alive?

Or could it perhaps be involving both? What it isn't involving, is reigning in any sense in heaven if is indicating it occurs on the earth. I can't see anyone conflating the earth with heaven, therefore, no one should be assuming Revelation 5:10 is also involving reigning in heaven if they are sticking to what the text plainly says.

You have a very faulty way of interpreting scripture. You think the absence of a certain detail means that detail cannot possibly relate to a given verse or passage. It is like those who don't relate 1 Thess 4:14-17 to Matthew 24:29-31 because the former passage doesn't reference Jesus coming after the tribulation or angels gathering people to Christ and the latter passage doesn't reference the resurrection of the dead.

Unless you believe in soul sleep, it shouldn't be hard to conclude that those who are reigning while on the earth would continue to do so in heaven when they physically, but not spiritually, die.

 

[Timtofly]

For the same reason you added to your Bible?

I did not add the Cross. The Cross is already in the Bible.

 

[Timtofly]

The cross is not the "last day" resurrection. That is a fiction of your personal eschatology.

Resurrection is to immortal, sinless bodies.
Those resurrected on the day of Jesus' death died again, they did not have immortal resurrection bodies, just as Lazarus did not.
Had they ascended to heaven, the NT would have testified to such.
We cannot assume they ascended into heaven apart from Biblical testimony to that effect.

The resurrection of the last day is at the end of time, with the judgment of the sheep and the goats (Mt 25:32).

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;"

Jesus said the hour now is. That was the resurrection of the Cross per Matthew 27