Is there anybody in Heaven?

UpperEschelon said:

The soul is immortal, the Bible clearly states that man was made in the image of God, hence he is an eternal being. The end result of every human living an eternity in either Gehenna or the New Jerusalem is a Biblical certainty. Not only that, but taking two small, isolated passages and extorting them to prove your point is in itself bad theology, as Psalm 146:4 and Psalm 115:17 do not prove unconsciousness whatsoever in any way or form. You can waste time beating around the bush with theological writings, but the final authority is ultimately dictated by the Word of God. I would also assume you would consequentially be advocating the "annihilation" of the human soul, whereby they cease to exist at some point. This is so blatantly and horrendously contradictory to the scriptures, and if that is the case then I would simply leave you to your belief if you'd still be willing to hold to it.

Scripture isn't ambiguous when it comes to revealing the consciousness of the after life. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is an absolutely clear reference to a conscious after life. Aside from that, I am going to repost something I had previously posted...

"9 “ Hell from beneath is excited about you,
To meet you at your coming;
It stirs up the dead for you,
All the chief ones of the earth;
It has raised up from their thrones
All the kings of the nations.
10 They all shall speak and say to you:

‘ Have you also become as weak as we?
Have you become like us?
11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,
And the sound of your stringed instruments;
The maggot is spread under you,
And worms cover you.’"


(Isaiah 44)

This passage is in reference to Sennacherib, the deceased king of Babylon. Those in Sheol are conscious of their state and can even perceive those who enter.


" 14 ‘So that no trees by the waters may ever again exalt themselves for their height, nor set their tops among the thick boughs, that no tree which drinks water may ever be high enough to reach up to them.


‘ For they have all been delivered to death,
To the depths of the earth,
Among the children of men who go down to the Pit.’

15 “Thus says the Lord GOD: ‘In the day when it went down to hell, I caused mourning. I covered the deep because of it. I restrained its rivers, and the great waters were held back. I caused Lebanon to mourn for it, and all the trees of the field wilted because of it. 16 I made the nations shake at the sound of its fall, when I cast it down to hell together with those who descend into the Pit; and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, were comforted in the depths of the earth. 17 They also went down to hell with it, with those slain by the sword; and those who were its strong arm dwelt in its shadows among the nations.
18 ‘To which of the trees in Eden will you then be likened in glory and greatness? Yet you shall be brought down with the trees of Eden to the depths of the earth; you shall lie in the midst of the uncircumcised, with those slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude,’ says the Lord GOD.”


(Ezekiel 21)


Graves are not made in the depths of the earth but its surface, hence this is Sheol (hell). Men are brought down to the Pit (Sheol) and are found with others around them. A similar passage is found in Ezekiel 32 and speaks specifically of Egypt sharing this same fate.


"So Jacob tore his clothes, and put sackcloth on his loins and mourned for his son many days.
35Then all his sons and all his daughters arose to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. And he said, "Surely I will go down to Sheol in mourning for my son." So his father wept for him."(Genesis 35)


Jacob acknowledges his son is in Sheol and despite his perceived death, Jacob still referred to Joseph as his son (a person continuing to exist). He even expresses a desire to reunite with him..."surely I will go down to Sheol".


The hebrew word "rephaim" is also a term that refers to the actual residents of Sheol, see Isa. 14:9, 26:14,19; Ps. 88:11; Prov. 2:18, 9:18, 21:16; Job. 26:5.


Also, the Hebrew equivalent for grave “kever” is never equated with “Sheol” and these two are consistently portrayed as opposites, hence “kever” being the state of the physical body and “sheol” being the state of the soul. One represents unconsciousness (grave) while the other represents consciousness (after life). Same goes for the greek counterparts, “mneema” meaning grave is consistently contrasted with “Hades” in the septuagint, which is the NT word for Sheol, the conscious state of the after life. There is a very big significance to this distinction, if there truly was no conscious state at death then there would not exist a distinction between kever/mneema (grave) and Sheol/Hades."
____________

Also, make note that your biblical evidence is limited to two misappropriated verses, with the rest being mere theological opinions, whereas I use 100% scripture to prove my point and provide anything but meager evidence. This fact speaks volumes.

Edit: Two additional items. Christ promised the thief next to him that he would be with Him in paradise. Since we know Jesus is not a liar, this would imply a conscious after life the thief would experience. Paul in Philippians also expresses the desire to depart and be with Christ, automatically implying that upon death he would not only be conscious but would also be in the presence of Christ.

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Mikecpking said:

Then I guess we have to agree to disagree.

Theree is no notiuon of asoul outside a body and the Jewish encyclopedia showss this.

There are 3 verses to prove a soul dies.

EZ 18:4
Numbers 23:10
Judges 16:30

The nephesh dies.

Immortality is a gift ffrom God (romans 6:23)
and there is only one immortal being and that is God

1 Timothy 6:16 (New International Version)

16who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

So much for your speculation, but if you can find 'immortal soul' or 'erternal soul' or the 'soul does not die' in the bible, you will be the first!

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UpperEschelon said:

The bible doesn't say "Jesus is God or "the trinity exists" either, does that mean Jesus is not God and the trinity doesn't exist? It comes from understanding and handling scripture properly. Of the few passages you have given, all were literally nothing more than misappropriation, meaning the point you think your proving in reality has not a single shred of biblical support (Ezekiel 18:4, Numbers 23:10, Judges 16:30 does not imply non-existence). Is it not clicking that you are misusing scripture? It is a very big mistake to equate the word "death" with annihilation, which is the formal word for "ceasing to exist". Nowhere in the Bible do any words even translate remotely to a word similar to "annihilate". The word "death" in the Bible always implied anything but non-existence.

Immortality is simply the anti-thesis of mortality. Meaning God is the one and only being who is not mortal by nature, whereas all other life is. You would even be misappropriating your own argument. The right word to use is "eternal", and a man's soul is most definitely eternal. To say no to this is to deny the Bible.

The concept of "annihilation of souls" has no place in the bible. If that were the case, sins needn't be accounted for and the redemptive work of Christ is rendered folly.

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Mikecpking said:

Clearly, you have no idea what a 'soul' is.

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Super Kal said:

the soul is not immortal.
the first one who taught that teaching was Plato in the Phaedo

Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and Hippolytus taught against it

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zeke37 said:

just to throw a screw into both your understanding...

28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

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UpperEschelon said:

spirit-->soul-->body.

The soul is the seat of the human being. It encompasses his very essence, who he is as a person, his emotions, sentiments and very being. At death when there is a loss of the physical shell (body) the person in his/her full identity is completely retained, and this must be so if they are to stand before God in judgment in account for all they accomplished in life and the person they had become.

You're just trying to divert to a tangential aspect.

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Mikecpking said:

That is not the biblical view.

It is the physical life of the person or the whole person, not the essence

Gen 2:7
DT12:23

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UpperEschelon said:

In the same way that believer's receive glorified bodies for life in the new jerusalem, so too will the dead unrighteous obtain new bodies when they are cast into Gehenna.

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UpperEschelon said:

Lean towards understanding rather than being quick to pass off empty judgments and blind accusations. The essence of someone = everything that encompasses their life as a human being, I used it as a metaphorical element, not a literal element - obviously. That much is clear in my explanation, as I give concrete aspects.

Mostly every verse you posted never had any application to what you argue, good indication you need to learn how to use scripture more properly if you are going to debate such issues (DT12:23?...)

And I intend to say this with respect, but you couldn't have given a more vague and uninformed definition for "soul". Physical life? A human soul is non-physical and non-tangible, but I would assume everyone knows that...

Anyways, stick to your Jewish Encyclopedia, I'd rather stick to the Scriptures.

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zeke37 said:

but...the scripture says genhenna is destroyed...Rev20

and Christ taught that the soul can be destroyed by God...Mat10

and Christ also taught about the souls under the altar in Rev6, who had died.


the soul continues on after death, and resides in a spiritual body in heaven.
the angel of Rev22 is a bretheren and of the prophets

it is that body that is raised back here
either when Chrsit comes (firstfruits)
or 1000 years later at final judgement

to either live forever on earth, or be destroyed in the lake of fire



the dead have that body in heaven today,
and it is that body that will be raised back here one day,

some raised for eternal life here on earth,
and some raised for the final destruction by ferverent heat

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zeke37 said:

but...the scripture says genhenna is destroyed...Rev20

Gehenna is not destroyed. Hades =/= Gehenna, Gehenna is the lake of fire = second death.

zeke37 said:

and Christ taught that the soul can be destroyed by God...Mat10

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This was in reference to the second death, it does not imply annihilation or non-existence.

zeke37 said:

the soul continues on after death, and resides in a spiritual body in heaven.

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The dead do not have a spiritual "body" in heaven. Scripture teaches of the resurrection of the dead in Christ only at His coming. "Resurrection" being a term consistently used throughout the Bible to signify the reunion of a man's soul and physical body. The dead in Christ receive their bodies once more only at His coming.

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Mikecpking said:

Unfortunately, the scriptures do not support your view of ythe biblical soul.

Here are the definitions:

Nephesh - Psyche - Soul
The important passage in Genesis 2:7 sets the scene for this 'window - word' into the nature of personhood. An individual becomes a 'nephesh' from the infusion of divine breath into moulded dust. In physical terms 'nephesh' means, 'neck', 'throat', 'gullet' and came to mean 'life', that 'vital motion' which distinguishes a living being from a corpse.

'Nephesh' has such a variety of senses that we must make a careful definition in each particular case. Meanings overlap and are used side by side. It is easy to end up with contradictory statements about 'nephesh'. Here are some of the central statements about 'nephesh':-
• it is that vital life which is shared by both humans and animals [Gen 2:19].
• it is life that is bound up with the body, blood is the vehicle of nephesh [Dt 12:23], at death it dies [Nu 23:10] draining away with the blood, with resuscitation it 'returns'; not that it has gone anywhere.
• it can denote 'the living individual themselves' [Gen 14:21], and can replace the personal pronoun to create special emphasis [Ps 42:6], God uses it of himself [Am 6:8].
• it is strongly instinctive [animal] activity; desire, vital urge, feeling, emotion, mood [Dt 14:26].
• it is feelings and emotions of a spiritual kind; grief, pain, joy, peace, love [Ezk 27:31]; its highest expression is longing for God [Ps 25:1].
The New Testament uses the Greek 'psyche' with the sense of the Hebrew 'nephesh'. Paul's writings are significant for how rarely he uses it. The Synoptics are interesting in that one third of their usage refers to life beyond death [Mt 10:28,39; 16:25-26; Mk 8:35-37; Lk 9:24; 21:19], due to the overlap of present and future in the Kingdom of God; revolutionary in terms of its Hebrew roots.
This 'nephesh' is primarily the life of the whole person in terms of strongly instinctive [animal] activity. It reflects the glory and richness of God's gift of life to him though susceptible to death. It is not an independent substance which, as many have argued, survives death.
These note are from a course run by www.workshop.org.uk if you want to check their credentials.

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Mikecpking said:

It is not an independent substance which, as many have argued, survives death.

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Mikecpking said:

Hi Zeke,
When are you going to realise that resurrection is at the last day?

John 5:28

1 cor 15:

21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come

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UpperEschelon said:

The dead do not have a spiritual "body" in heaven.

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Scripture teaches of the resurrection of the dead in Christ only at His coming. "Resurrection" being a term consistently used throughout the Bible to signify the reunion of a man's soul and physical body. The dead in Christ receive their bodies once more only at His coming.

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zeke37 said:

1 Corinthians 15
35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


nope...but have at it

the angel that visited John in Rev22 proves otherwise...
that was 1900 + years ago

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UpperEschelon said:

zeke37 said:

but...the scripture says genhenna is destroyed...Rev20

Gehenna is not destroyed. Hades =/= Gehenna, Gehenna is the lake of fire = second death.



This was in reference to the second death, it does not imply annihilation or non-existence.




The dead do not have a spiritual "body" in heaven. Scripture teaches of the resurrection of the dead in Christ only at His coming. "Resurrection" being a term consistently used throughout the Bible to signify the reunion of a man's soul and physical body. The dead in Christ receive their bodies once more only at His coming.

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The word “hell” is used 54 times in the Bible. It is translated from several different words with various meanings as indicated below:
In the Old Testament:
31 times from the Hebrew “Sheol,” which means “the grave”
In the New Testament:
10 times from the Greek “Hades,” which means “the grave”
12 times from the Greek “Gehenna,” which means “a place of burning”
1 time from the Greek “Tartarus,” which means “a place of darkness”
“Tartarus” is used once, in 2 Peter 2:4, and means “a place of darkness or restraint.” “Tartarus” is where Satan and his demons reside now. It isn’t a place of punishment or flames.
“Gehenna” means a place of fire, brimstone, and punishment (see Matthew 5:29-30, described in Matthew 13:40-42 and 2 Peter 3:7.) Note these flames are still in the future at the end of the world.
“Hades” means “the grave” (Acts 2:31; 1 Corinthians 15:55; Revelation 20:14). The body of Jesus rested there and His saints are resting there now awaiting the resurrection.
The Greek word “Hades” is translated as “Hell” in many English Bibles such as the King James Version. In Revelation 6:8, the King James Version refers to “Death and Hell [Hades].” It does the same in Revelation 20:14. Yet some English Bibles use the word “Hades” itself, such as the New International Version, which translates both Revelation 6:8 and 20:14 as “Death, and Hades.” Now here is the point; In Revelation 20:14 “Hades” (“Hell”) is eventually “cast into the lake of fire.” So as you can therefore see, “Hades” itself is not a fiery place, but is cast into “the lake of fire” (hell fire).

Death is clearly sleep:
Job 14:12 The dead “shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep” until “the heavens be no more.”
Psalms 13:3 “Lest I sleep the sleep of death.”
Daniel 12:2 “Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake.”
Acts 7:60 When Stephen died, “he fell asleep.”
John 11:11-14 “Lazarus sleeps … Jesus spoke of his death.”
1 Corinthians 11:30; 15:6, 18, 51 Paul said death was “sleep.”
1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 Those “which sleep in Jesus” will be resurrected

The dead are unconscious:
Psalms 115:17 “The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.”
Psalms 146:4 When a man dies, “in that very day his thoughts perish.”
Ecclesiastes 9:5 “The dead know not anything.”
Ecclesiastes 9:10 “There is no work... nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave.”

All Believers will be Resurrected when Jesus Christ Returns:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 “The Lord himself shall descend ... the dead ... shall rise ... to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
1 Corinthians 15:50-55 The saints cry out, “0 death, where is thy sting” when they are resurrected at the second coming of Jesus.
John 14:1-3 Jesus will take us to heaven when He “comes again.”
1 Corinthians 15:12-23 Paul says there is a resurrection of both Christ and the dead, “but every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.”


The resurrection occurs when Jesus arrives, that is when we go to heaven.

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UpperEschelon said:

"For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself." (Philippians 3:20-21)

Paul was delineating for us the difference between the physical and spiritual bodies, and it is a concept for believer's naturally. It is not the body that the dead in Christ come with, it is the body all believer's receive at His coming. The spiritual body Paul spoke of is the glorified body all believer's will receive that will be in the likeness of Christ, and all believer's receive it at the same instant in time, at His coming. The dead are resurrected for the purpose of being reunited with their physical bodies, as the living already have their physical bodies. And only after this is the raptured church glorified, meaning they receive their spiritual bodies.

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