Is there anybody in Heaven?

andross77 · Sep 8, 2010

<staff edit>
Throwing a pity party does not garner support for yourself but rather shows immaturity.

It's alike a little child who is only 36 inches tall and he goes to Six Flags theme park and gets into a Roller Coaster line that says you must be 48 inches or taller to ride. When he gets to the front and the person operating the roller coaster suspects he is too short and asks him to stand next to the measuring stick he throws a fit. Sure enough, he is too short and the man asks him to find the exit. And then he cries and whines and bellows to the embarrassment of his mother.

You don't want to be like that do you?

A hallmark of Christian love is explaining the rules to the lost. Rule #1 - You must believe in Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord to have eternal life and NOT go to hell. Rule #2354562456 - When a subforum on www.christianforums.com says "Christians ONLY" that means "Christians ONLY." So if you aren't, don't post here.

We are not trying to hate, but if we let you break the rules, where will it stop and what is the point of having forums where only Christians post? Answer: none.

PS - You are welcome inside the gate whenever you want to enter appropriately. Read John 10:1-2: "I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep."

You were trying to "climb in another way." Simply enter by the gate instead. Blessings.

Husky7 · Sep 8, 2010

Tractor1 said:
In what sense will Jesus bring with Him those who've fallen asleep (1 Thess. 4:14)?

Paul declares that when a Christian dies their souls go immediately to heaven (2 Cor. 5:6-8). The believer is either in their physical body living on earth or has left their material body and have gone into Christ's presence. There is no third option, such as purgatorry or "soul sleep." Nowhere does the passage suggest an intermediate state of unconsciousness. Also, while Paul continues at home in the body, he also continues away from home as regards the Lord (present tense); because of this, his fellowship was incomplete (vs. 7). He then goes on to say that a moment of time is coming (aorist) when the situation will be changed and he will be present with the Lord and absent from the body, which is a clear reference to death.

Further, while on the cross Jesus promised the dying thief that he would be with Him in paradise that very day (Luke 23:43). The word paradise is used three times in the New Testament for heaven, where Christ currently resides.

See also (Phil. 1:21-23). Paul's one desire has a twofold object: departure and being with Christ! If departure didn't mean his immediate being with Christ, another construction would've been used. Therefore, it seems impossible that "soul sleep" was in the mind of the Apostle, since his desire was to enjoy the presence of the Lord.

Lastly, believers are given the guarantee that nothing, including death, will ever separate them from their Lord (Rom. 8:38-39). This assures them that they are not abandoned at the time of physical death.

In Christ,
Tracey

First off, the dying thief on the cross was promised that he would be with Jesus in paradise that day...not that he would go to paradise that day.

Luke 23:43, "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise."

The King James version did not include punctuation when it was first written. The orginal greek text did not have punctuation; punctuation was later added to the version, and in result, there have been several gramatical errors because of it. When the passage puts the comma after thee, and before To day, it contradicts scripture.

If people went directly to heaven, as people claim the theif did, why does scripture say that there will be a resurrection of the rightous dead?

Revelation 20:5-6, "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

If all the rightous go to heaven directly after they die, then why in the world is there a resurrection of the rightous dead? Resurrect means to bring back to life, or raise from the dead, as Jesus did. If people go directly to heaven after they die, then the bible contradicts itself, and we know that that isn't possible.

zeke37 · Sep 8, 2010

when the flesh dies, the spirit goes to heaven...conscious intellect...and waits there, in a spiritual body

that spiritual body is the body that is "raised" here to life on earth again....

so, the spirits of those who believe in Christ,
who are dead in the flesh, are alive in heaven today.
and they will return here to earth with Christ when He comes
and be gathered together with the alive ones who are faithful to Christ at His Coming

the dead are very much alive today...not sleeping, not in the ground....those are figures of speech

Husky7 · Sep 8, 2010

zeke37 said:
when the flesh dies, the spirit goes to heaven...conscious intellect...and waits there, in a spiritual body

that spiritual body is the body that is "raised" here to life on earth again....

so, the spirits of those who believe in Christ,
who are dead in the flesh, are alive in heaven today.
and they will return here to earth with Christ when He comes
and be gathered together with the alive ones who are faithful to Christ at His Coming

the dead are very much alive today...not sleeping, not in the ground....those are figures of speech

ok, umm, where in scripture do you get that from?

zeke37 · Sep 9, 2010

zeke37 · Sep 9, 2010

zeke37 said:
when the flesh dies, the spirit goes to heaven...conscious intellect...and waits there,

6Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
8Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.

8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

in a spiritual body

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

that spiritual body is the body that is "raised" here to life on earth again....

1Thes4/Mar13/1Cor15

so, the spirits of those who believe in Christ,
who are dead in the flesh, are alive in heaven today. Mat22/1Thes4
and they will return here to earth with Christ when He comes
and be gathered together with the alive ones who are faithful to Christ at His ComingMar13/1Thes4/1Cor15/Rev19

the dead are very much alive today...not sleeping, not in the ground....those are figures of speech

...

addo · Sep 9, 2010

The place where the dead go (the grave) is a place described as the "land of forgetfulness". It is also known as the "dark" (since light would be the life). Those who lie in the grave are people "whom You remember no more" *

*note: God doesn't forget in the sense that He has no memory of them anymore; but when God "forgets" or "remembers" it is in the sense that it has been brought to His (full) attention, that His attention is on that "remembered" thing; when saying that He doesn't remember the dead it is meant that they are not on His attention anymore; for example I don't think Paul, now being dead, receives God's full attention, or any attention, for that matter.

Psalm 88:5 (NKJV)

[...]

4 I am counted with those who go down to the pit;
I am like a man who has no strength,
5 Adrift among the dead,
Like the slain who lie in the grave,
Whom You remember no more,
And who are cut off from Your hand.

[...]

10 Will You work wonders for the dead?
Shall the dead arise and praise You? Selah
11 Shall Your lovingkindness be declared in the grave?
Or Your faithfulness in the place of destruction?
12Shall Your wonders be known in the dark?
And Your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

[...]

UpperEschelon · Sep 9, 2010

graymonkey said:
This question goes out to the Futurists.

Is there anyone in Heaven right now,other than the Trinity and angels, if Jesus has not returned?

John 14

2"In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3"If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

John 3
13"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

So Jesus says no one has ascended into heaven and since, according to you, He has not returned yet, is there anybody in heaven?

I do believe John 3 simply means to say that no one has ascended into heaven before the Son of Man descended from heaven (took human flesh). This verse does not demand the conclusion you push.

graymonkey · Sep 9, 2010

UpperEschelon said:
I do believe John 3 simply means to say that no one has ascended into heaven before the Son of Man descended from heaven (took human flesh). This verse does not demand the conclusion you push.

Interesting. Do you have any scriptual support for your position?

Mikecpking · Sep 9, 2010

UpperEschelon said:
I do believe John 3 simply means to say that no one has ascended into heaven before the Son of Man descended from heaven (took human flesh). This verse does not demand the conclusion you push.

Scripture is clear that people are in the graves until the resurrection

Acts 2;29-34.

Peter is stating that David is in the grave and he did not ascend to heaven.
John 5:28 Jesus is saying people are in the graves and will come out
Dan 12:2 clearly state the dead are in the dust of the ground until the resurrection.

'Spirit' as in the human spirit is the 'breath of life' (Gen 2:7), the spirit is not 'the essence of a person' going to heaven, it really is just the breath of life from God who gave it.

NJBeliever · Sep 9, 2010

Again, what about the souls of slain martyrs under the altar in Heaven? What about Elijaj going to Heaven?? What about Enoch? What about Paul saying he knew a man who was in the third Heaven, possibly out of his body? There seem to be many examples of people being in Heaven in Scripture.

Husky7 · Sep 9, 2010

zeke37 said:
...

Ok, thank you, you didn't have the verse number on there. I didn't know that it was from the bible...I apologize. I'll read through this and respond...

zeke37 · Sep 10, 2010

Mikecpking said:
Scripture is clear that people are in the graves until the resurrection

hmmmm...

Rev5:1And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Rev6:9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Rev12:7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev22:8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Husky7 · Sep 10, 2010

zeke37 said:
hmmmm...

Rev5:1And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

Im not sure about this one, but it can't mean that there are men in heaven, because it would then contradict the verses below, as well as others which say that man does not go to heaven until Christ's second coming.

9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

It's not talking about right now, because it says the same thing here: Revelation 20:6, "Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." This verse is clearly talking about the start of the millenium after Jesus returns. Revelation 5:8 states that the "they" at the beginning of verse 9 is referring to the four beasts, and 42 elders, that fell down to worship God in verse 8.

Rev6:9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

No where in these verses does it say that these people are living with God in heaven. It says in verse 11, that these "souls" must rest, and this makes sense because they need to wait until Christ returns. It states that these dead people must wait for a little season, until all has been fulfilled.

Rev12:7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

This is talking about Satan's rebellion against God, and the war in heaven. This rebellion took place while Adam and Eve were in the Garden still...it cannot possibly be talking about human beings in heaven. Take verse 11 for example, the "they" is the angels and God, because it says that they put down the rebellion through the blood of the lamb.

Rev22:8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

When the angel says, "I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets," he is simply stating that he is a servant just like John, and also like the prophets on earth.

-None of these verses point to the theory about Humans being in heaven right now. It happens to state just the opposite.

NJBeliever · Sep 10, 2010

Dude come on, the souls of the martyrs are under the altar of God. They're in Heaven. And once again, what about Elijah, Enoch and the man who Paul clearly said went to heaven? There really isn't much to debate about with this question.

Super Kal · Sep 10, 2010

yet the fact remains: flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven

not to mention the fact that early Christian teachers never taught that the soul went immediately into heaven after they died... they taught that it slept. In fact, the teaching that the soul went to heaven after it died did not originate from a Christian teacher. It came from the writings of Plato.

zeke37 · Sep 11, 2010

Husky7 said:
Im not sure about this one, but it can't mean that there are men in heaven, because it would then contradict the verses below, as well as others which say that man does not go to heaven until Christ's second coming.

Hi...sure it can, if you misunderstood ...
and can you point those verses of would be contradictions out for me please?

It's not talking about right now, because it says the same thing here: Revelation 20:6, "Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." This verse is clearly talking about the start of the millenium after Jesus returns. Revelation 5:8 states that the "they" at the beginning of verse 9 is referring to the four beasts, and 42 elders, that fell down to worship God in verse 8.

I know...but there were men there observing, before then....

No where in these verses does it say that these people are living with God in heaven. It says in verse 11, that these "souls" must rest, and this makes sense because they need to wait until Christ returns. It states that these dead people must wait for a little season, until all has been fulfilled.

the "souls" are the dead martyrs in heaven...
and they are conscious and even talking,
they are getting instructions, and comforted

all that would be redundant if they were "sleeping"
they are waiting for their return HERE with Christ, as detailed in 1Thes4:13-18

This is talking about Satan's rebellion against God, and the war in heaven. This rebellion took place while Adam and Eve were in the Garden still...

I disagree....Satan was not "at war" when God called him and the other angels to counsel in Job1-2

it cannot possibly be talking about human beings in heaven. Take verse 11 for example, the "they" is the angels and God, because it says that they put down the rebellion through the blood of the lamb.

well, that is incorrect, because of this

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

they died...and overcame by the blood of the Lamb.
meaning that they were human

When the angel says, "I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets," he is simply stating that he is a servant just like John, and also like the prophets on earth.

he is stating that he was a prophet and one of his brethren.
brethren means that he was of Israel.

-None of these verses point to the theory about Humans being in heaven right now. It happens to state just the opposite.

they all point to just that, conscious existence in heaven after death

Christ even taught about that and how the Sadducees got it wrong...
they and others were astonished at His doctrine...

24And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

addo · Sep 11, 2010

NJBeliever said:
Again, what about the souls of slain martyrs under the altar in Heaven?

Here is a post of mine from the past. It should answer your question.

NJBeliever said:
What about Elijaj going to Heaven??

First Heaven (the atmosphere). Look, here Elijah sent a letter to a king time ago after he "went up to Heaven". I don't think he sent the letter from Heaven. The answer is that He was just taken to another place on Earth.

"Jehoram received a letter from Elijah the prophet, which said ..." (2 Chronicles 21:12)

NJBeliever said:
What about Enoch?

What about him? It doesn't really say Enoch went to Heaven, but just that God took him.

NJBeliever said:
What about Paul saying he knew a man who was in the third Heaven, possibly out of his body?

Exactly. It could have been "out of his body" in the sense of a vision. And even if he would have went in the body, he didn't really stay there, did he? It is believed that this man is actually Paul.

By the way, none seems to have replied to my post (the one in which I quote Psalm 88).

ivebeenshown · Sep 11, 2010

addo said:
What about him? It doesn't really say Enoch went to Heaven, but just that God took him.

Hebrews 11:13... "These all died in faith"

I like the site "what happens when we die." Here's a great one it showed me.

Job 14:12 The dead “shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep” until “the heavens be no more.”

Acts 7:60 When Stephen died, “he fell asleep.” And Stephen was even a martyr!

NJBeliever · Sep 12, 2010

addo said:
Here is a post of mine from the past. It should answer your question.

So basically, you're trying to say John saw their blood. That just doesn't follow grammatically. Their blood were given robes??? Seriously? There is no logical reason to define souls as "blood" in this passage. Not to mention none of the blood in Leviticus, is in Heaven, which is the relevant point. Human blood could not even enter Heaven until it is glorified. But your soul can. And they are in soul form, under the altar. Not to mention, as stated, that you blur the words "sleep" and "Rest".

And then of course we see the entire church n Heaven in Revelation 7. Wearing said robes.

addo said:
First[/i] Heaven (the atmosphere). Look, here Elijah sent a letter to a king time ago after he "went up to Heaven". I don't think he sent the letter from Heaven. The answer is that He was just taken to another place on Earth.
"Jehoram received a letter from Elijah the prophet, which said ..." (2 Chronicles 21:12)

There is absolutely nothing whatsoever to to indicate that Elijah was just moved to another place on Earth.

addo said:
So where are you trying to say that Enoch is?

addo;55679601Exactly. It could have been "out of his body" in the sense of a vision. And even if he would have went in the body said:

But the point is that someone was in the Third Heaven, specifically. You, once again, have no warrant to say "it was a vision." Paul said the person was in the third Heaven. That ends the debate.

There is no soul sleep.

Luke 16: 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

The beggar did not go to sleep. He was carried away by angels. Why was he not snoozing comfortably in his grave?? Because there is no soul sleep.

Matthew 22: 31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. 33And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are all alive. The only thing on Earth is their bodies.

Philipians 3: 20For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

The word "conversation" here means citizenship. We are citizens from Heaven once we are saved. The only thing that needs to be resurrected IS YOUR BODY. When you are Born Again, you already have a new spirit. That can already enter Heaven. It's your body that cannot.

1 Corinthians 15:51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

This was the whole point of Jesus dying for us. Jesus defeated death and the grave. Anyone who believes in Him will not taste death. Our bodies will "sleep" awaiting the resurrection, but our souls will never be in the grave. Our born again spirit is sinless in Christ. Our born again spirit is already free from the law in Christ. It happens at the moment you are saved. Please, for those who are considering this incorrect doctrine of "soul sleep", please just consider what Jesus promises in the Gospels. You have eternal life (which means you do not die until the rapture). Believe in Christ today and enjoy eternal life today. I know I am!

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