Is there any validity to Ivan Panin's numerics of the Bible?

[Verward]

Ivan Panin claimed that the Greek and Hebrew text of the New and Old Testaments contained intricate numeric patterns which proved that these were inspired by God. The Greek and Hebrew letters also represented numbers (alpha=1, beta=2, ...) and when you sum the letters in word, phrases, and passages in the text the numbers with particular factors appear much more frequently than could be expected by chance.

If you are familiar with the subject I would like to know your thoughts.

 

[alexandriaisburning]

Ivan Panin claimed that the Greek and Hebrew text of the New and Old Testaments contained intricate numeric patterns which proved that these were inspired by God. The Greek and Hebrew letters also represented numbers (alpha=1, beta=2, ...) and when you sum the letters in word, phrases, and passages in the text the numbers with particular factors appear much more frequently than could be expected by chance.

If you are familiar with the subject I would like to know your thoughts.

I'm not intimately familiar with his work, but from what I've read, there is significant reason to be skeptical about his conclusions. First, his methodology hasn't been thoroughly peer-reviewed (AFAIK); given the amount of biblical and textual scholars out there, this--in my opinion--lends itself to the conclusion that his work is really not taken very seriously.

Second, and perhaps most important, is that his methodology requires such level of precision in the structure of the texts that it's hard to see how such could be reconstructed from the various source documents that are extant. From what I understand, Panin ultimately produced his own source documents to support the methodology he employed.

Last, I would personally add that I don't particularly see the point. I know that one of Panin's suppositions is that such a numerical confluence would be improbable (if not impossible) apart from a divine origin. However, this is simple circular reasoning, given that we have no reason to assume that texts with a divine origin would have any such precision. Moreover, there is PLENTY of this kind of sleight-of-hand that occurs for other religious texts (just do a simple google for "koran numerology"). Given the relatively small number of letters in a given alphabet, and the normal distribution of words and letters across sentences and paragraphs, it's likely that such numerological tricks could be applied to any text, given the appropriate motivation.

 

[Verward]

I'm not intimately familiar with his work, but from what I've read, there is significant reason to be skeptical about his conclusions. First, his methodology hasn't been thoroughly peer-reviewed (AFAIK); given the amount of biblical and textual scholars out there, this--in my opinion--lends itself to the conclusion that his work is really not taken very seriously.

Second, and perhaps most important, is that his methodology requires such level of precision in the structure of the texts that it's hard to see how such could be reconstructed from the various source documents that are extant. From what I understand, Panin ultimately produced his own source documents to support the methodology he employed.

Last, I would personally add that I don't particularly see the point. I know that one of Panin's suppositions is that such a numerical confluence would be improbable (if not impossible) apart from a divine origin. However, this is simple circular reasoning, given that we have no reason to assume that texts with a divine origin would have any such precision. Moreover, there is PLENTY of this kind of sleight-of-hand that occurs for other religious texts (just do a simple google for "koran numerology"). Given the relatively small number of letters in a given alphabet, and the normal distribution of words and letters across sentences and paragraphs, it's likely that such numerological tricks could be applied to any text, given the appropriate motivation.

I am skeptical about Panin's work and his methodology. The number of patterns you find depends on how hard you look. If you look at 70 features of a passage of text you expect on average to find 10 that are divisible by 7. You then can't say the chance of finding 10 features with 7 in it are 7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7x7. No mathematician would have suggested something like that. I suppose my question would be did Panin find something but started overreaching, or was there nothing there at all and he was just chasing figments of his imagination?

Creating his own source document does seem like a circular argument, but the constraints of having to create a document that is coherent do limit his flexibility. Variations in the text do not seem to be as big a problem as it might seem at first. A lot of the gematria is obtained from dictionary words rather than from the form it appears in the text.

Is it worth checking a small passage to see if the patterns exist, or is that just a waste of time?

 

[Rev20.20]

I'm not intimately familiar with his work, but from what I've read, there is significant reason to be skeptical about his conclusions. First, his methodology hasn't been thoroughly peer-reviewed (AFAIK); given the amount of biblical and textual scholars out there, this--in my opinion--lends itself to the conclusion that his work is really not taken very seriously.

Second, and perhaps most important, is that his methodology requires such level of precision in the structure of the texts that it's hard to see how such could be reconstructed from the various source documents that are extant. From what I understand, Panin ultimately produced his own source documents to support the methodology he employed.

Last, I would personally add that I don't particularly see the point. I know that one of Panin's suppositions is that such a numerical confluence would be improbable (if not impossible) apart from a divine origin. However, this is simple circular reasoning, given that we have no reason to assume that texts with a divine origin would have any such precision. Moreover, there is PLENTY of this kind of sleight-of-hand that occurs for other religious texts (just do a simple google for "koran numerology"). Given the relatively small number of letters in a given alphabet, and the normal distribution of words and letters across sentences and paragraphs, it's likely that such numerological tricks could be applied to any text, given the appropriate motivation.

Rev20.20 While it is good to be skeptical - that is, not gullible, it is also good to weigh up evidence if possible, or, at leat to let it sit on the shelf.
I have read something of the work of Ivan Panin, which is referred to in a little book I have called Seal of God (F.C.Payne)- ISBN 0-908208-05-7

In this little book the author addresses a constant 'seal' or handiwork factor of God in all of creation. example: all flowers of a particular kind have the same numerical design in their structure; certain number of stamens, petals (rib lines, points), leaves on stems of certain kinds of plants have the same numerical pattern, etc.
Numbers of spirals in a certain kind of shell, in DNA in, and so forth.
All atoms of a certain element have the same numerical factor, how many atoms, protons, ions, neutrons, etc.
There was a time when the general public did not know about such designs in created nature.

It has been said that God who created all things is the Greatest Mathematician of all. And sure this is true.
And if so, is it not possible that in His word He has placed in His original text (which we admit we do not have) and thus some vestige of that original pattern remains in what is with us today?
While most believers would have no interest in such information, this does not of itself diminish ANY kind of testimony God has (may have) put in His word.
Most believers are not really interested in Greek or Hebrew, - was a time when I was not. Most believers would not be too interested in the pattern in flowers, and shells and atoms, but it is there for anyone to investigate or be amazed at.

Most of the world is not interested in the witness of the stars, to the glory of God, or the microscopic world of insects or atoms that all testify to God's wisdom and understanding. However, those things remain as evidence of God.

If there is any truth in what Ivan Panin (Russina Jew and mathematician; and ex-nhilist ie unbeliever) discovered (which many Christians teachers dismiss it and deride his work) that in some manuscripts there was a consistent pattern of numerical evidence beyond the human element, which discovery led him to have faith in Jesus Christ as Son of God, then such truth is there regardless of whether we know it or not or believe it or not.

Paul says - "For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things made, both His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse" Rom 1:20

Many millions over the centuries have never been able to read a Bible or to hear one being read or to hear a 'gospel' message being proclaimed to them, yet they have been able to see the material universe and hear its sounds and feel the wind or rain on their skin and know in their souls that this is the hand of God and enquire of Him.

Does it matter if there is a numerical pattern in the biblical text or not that points to God? Does it matter if there is a numerical pattern in atoms, DNA, Flora, or in any other thing, that points to God?

God has even put His seal in the finger print of each person, on the eye ball of each person, in the facial features of each person and man is capitalizing on such uniqueness to identify every single person on the earth (if he can). Does it matter if we know or not know that we have a uniqueness in our finger prints?
Life still goes on, and we can still have faith in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, because most believers in the western world have had opportunity to read a bible if not own one, or have heard a message about Jesus preached on modern media forms.
Many Bible versions have been weakened little by little over time, by, certain ommissions and additions, but there is still sufficient residue of witness to Jesus Christ in most of them that God can yet use for His glory.
And I think this is in part may may be said for Ivan Panin's work on bible numerics (not numerology).

 

[Richard334]

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I think there is a lot of evidence to support ivan panin's claim of God insired Scriptures!

 

[Verward]

I think there is a lot of evidence to support ivan panin's claim of God insired Scriptures!

What in particular is a good example of numerical patterns in the Greek of the New Testament? I read about patterns in Mark 16:9-20 but when I checked the Greek of both Nestle-Aland and of the Textus Receptus the numbers are different from what Panin claimed, the number of words as not what he said and not divisible by seven, and the same for the number of letters and the number of forms, and I'm still checking other things but it takes time.

If there are better passages to examine I would like to hear about them, and also interested if anyone has actually picked up a Greek New Testament (not one modified by Panin) and found patterns.