Is there a difference between "Paradise" and "Heaven", or are they one in the same?

[Neogaia777]

Is there a difference between "Paradise" and "Heaven", or are they one in the same?

If they are different, what are the differences?

Discussion?

Comments?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Is there a difference between "Paradise" and "Heaven", or are they one in the same?

If they are different, what are the differences?

Discussion?

Comments?

God Bless!

Is "paradise" a realm or reality that still consists of the physical, and "Heaven" not of the physical?

See this link for more info on what I am referring to... http://www.christianforums.com/thre...ions-or-fabrics-or-layers-of-reality.7964616/

God Bless!

 

[Der Alte]

Is there a difference between "Paradise" and "Heaven", or are they one in the same?
If they are different, what are the differences?
Discussion?
Comments?
God Bless!

2 Corinthians 12:2-3
(2) I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.
(3) And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—

 

[Neogaia777]

2 Corinthians 12:2-3
(2) I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.
(3) And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—

Thanks, but I know that scripture and it doesn't answer the question...

God Bless!

 

[Der Alte]

Thanks, but I know that scripture and it doesn't answer the question...
God Bless!

Yes it does! Paul equates paradise with heaven. The "third heaven" is the abode of God. There are three heavens referred to in scripture, the atmosphere e.g. "birds of the heavens." The cosmos, e.g. "stars of heaven" And the third is the abode of God, e.g. "YHWH the God of Heaven."

 

[Neogaia777]

Yes it does! Paul equates paradise with heaven. The "third heaven" is the abode of God. There are three heavens referred to in scripture, the atmosphere e.g. "birds of the heavens." The cosmos, e.g. "stars of heaven" And the third is the abode of God, e.g. "YHWH the God of Heaven."

Ok, it "appears" to answer the first question, but not exactly, because if Heaven and Paradise are the same, then this question comes up that was in post #2...

Is "paradise" a realm or reality that still consists of the physical, and "Heaven" not of the physical?

See this link for more info on what I am referring to... http://www.christianforums.com/thre...ions-or-fabrics-or-layers-of-reality.7964616/

Can that scripture or any scripture that you know of, answer that question, please...?

Jesus speaks of "paradise" to the thief on the cross with him, but he also uses the word "Heaven" in his teachings... Do you know if they are supposed to be or mean the same thing or place or not...?

I'm asking cause I don't know these things, but would like to, and I'm hoping some of you do too...

Anything helps, much thanks if you can...

God Bless!

 

[dobyzheee]

They are 2 different things

 

[ViaCrucis]

In standard Jewish understanding the Greek word Paradaisos ("Paradise") referred to what was called Gan-Eden, the Garden of Eden (the Greek word is actually a loan word from Persian, where it means "an enclosed garden"). This was the "good" part of She'ol or Hades, the realm of the dead; whereas Ge-Hinnom (Gehenna) was the "bad" part. The ancient Hebrew understanding was that the realm of the dead, She'ol, was the common grave, the common place where the dead departed. In later Jewish understanding She'ol (translated into Greek as Hades) was split between these two places, Gan-Eden and Ge-Hinnom, the abode of the righteous dead (which Jesus also calls "Abraham's Bosom" in the Gospels) and the abode of the wicked dead respectively.

In some Second Temple literature which was fairly well known in antiquity but never accepted into the Christian biblical Canon some of these sorts of ideas are expanded upon; for example the Book of Enoch and some other apocalyptic and fantastical texts refer to seven heavens. The highest heaven is where God Himself resides, whereas the third heaven is described as being where the Garden of Eden is located. While some biblical commenters have looked at St. Paul's reference to the vision of the third heaven as meaning there are three heavens and try to extrapolate from that, it is very likely that the Apostle is well acquainted with the imagery from texts such as Enoch and therefore speaking of Paradise in the third heaven would have been a recognizable description which he and many others would have known. What we shouldn't do with St. Paul's description or the fantastical descriptions in certain non-canonical apocalyptic works is attempt to chart some literal geography of heaven.

"Where is Paradise located?" and "Where is Heaven?" are probably both flawed questions because they assume a kind of literalistic cosmic geography that muddles the point of both concepts in Scripture. If you get into a rocket ship and start soaring to the edges of the universe you won't, even given infinite time to do so, ever reach either. God is not found through a telescope. And the defining characteristic for "Heaven" is that it is the most immediate presence of God, even used euphemistically for God Himself (e.g. Matthew's Gospel uses "kingdom of Heaven" where Luke and Mark use "kingdom of God"); and if God is indeed everywhere as Scripture asserts, then "Heaven" isn't a place in any normal sense of the term at all.

The more important question concerning these concepts isn't where, but what.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Greg J.]

The tree of life is in paradise.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. (Revelation 2:7, 1984 NIV)

The tree of life is where God's throne is.

Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. (Revelation 22:1-2, 1984 NIV)

God's throne is in heaven.

At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. (Revelation 4:2, 1984 NIV)

 

[dobyzheee]

Lazarus went to paradise after he died and saw the rich man on the other side.

Was he in heaven..i dont think so.

But thats what Ive beeb taught. The whole idea that people go to heaven after dying is a bit umm unbiblical

 

[newlightseven]

Paradise was in Abraham's bosom. It's where all the people who were saved were waiting for Christ to come and fulfill the scriptures.

 

[Neogaia777]

In standard Jewish understanding the Greek word Paradaisos ("Paradise") referred to what was called Gan-Eden, the Garden of Eden (the Greek word is actually a loan word from Persian, where it means "an enclosed garden"). This was the "good" part of She'ol or Hades, the realm of the dead; whereas Ge-Hinnom (Gehenna) was the "bad" part. The ancient Hebrew understanding was that the realm of the dead, She'ol, was the common grave, the common place where the dead departed. In later Jewish understanding She'ol (translated into Greek as Hades) was split between these two places, Gan-Eden and Ge-Hinnom, the abode of the righteous dead (which Jesus also calls "Abraham's Bosom" in the Gospels) and the abode of the wicked dead respectively.

In some Second Temple literature which was fairly well known in antiquity but never accepted into the Christian biblical Canon some of these sorts of ideas are expanded upon; for example the Book of Enoch and some other apocalyptic and fantastical texts refer to seven heavens. The highest heaven is where God Himself resides, whereas the third heaven is described as being where the Garden of Eden is located. While some biblical commenters have looked at St. Paul's reference to the vision of the third heaven as meaning there are three heavens and try to extrapolate from that, it is very likely that the Apostle is well acquainted with the imagery from texts such as Enoch and therefore speaking of Paradise in the third heaven would have been a recognizable description which he and many others would have known. What we shouldn't do with St. Paul's description or the fantastical descriptions in certain non-canonical apocalyptic works is attempt to chart some literal geography of heaven.

"Where is Paradise located?" and "Where is Heaven?" are probably both flawed questions because they assume a kind of literalistic cosmic geography that muddles the point of both concepts in Scripture. If you get into a rocket ship and start soaring to the edges of the universe you won't, even given infinite time to do so, ever reach either. God is not found through a telescope. And the defining characteristic for "Heaven" is that it is the most immediate presence of God, even used euphemistically for God Himself (e.g. Matthew's Gospel uses "kingdom of Heaven" where Luke and Mark use "kingdom of God"); and if God is indeed everywhere as Scripture asserts, then "Heaven" isn't a place in any normal sense of the term at all.

The more important question concerning these concepts isn't where, but what.

-CryptoLutheran

Well, "what" are they in your opinion, or based on what you know? Are they different, separate places, or not? Is paradise a physical realm and Heaven not, or not, or what? Where do we go when we die?

Whatever "layers" of different realities there are, God literally "is" "all" of them, his "body" consists of all of them, and "everything in them... He "is" and "is in" and is "all" of whatever "is in" "all" of those "layers" of realities, no matter how many layers there are... "Seven" or "three" or "four", whatever...

Science knows that there are multiple other dimensions, other layers of realities, connected to this one, which we interact with and even "pass through", moment by moment, every single moment of everyday... Though not "consciously", but rather kind of "unconsciously", unaware of them... But science is just beginning to be able to prove their "there" but doesn't understand, or understands very little about them as of yet...

God Bless!

 

[ViaCrucis]

Well, "what" are they in your opinion, or based on what you know? Are they different, separate places, or not? Is paradise a physical realm and Heaven not, or not, or what? Where do we go when we die?

Paradise and Gehenna are the way that the Jews conceived of the waiting between death and resurrection. They aren't, in and of themselves, what's important but rather echoing forward to the resurrection of the dead at the consummation of history. The language to describe them are chiefly metaphorical and not to be taken literally. Which is to say, there is no literal place with literal fire and literal worms gnawing at the flesh of the wicked. Beyond saying that they are a foretaste of what is to come is chiefly to engage in pure speculation and go well beyond what we should say with any dogmatic certainty.

No, I don't believe that Heaven, Paradise, Gehenna are literal places.

Whatever "layers" of different realities there are, God literally "is" "all" of them, his "body" consists of all of them, and "everything in them... He "is" and "is in" and is "all" of whatever "is in" "all" of those "layers" of realities, no matter how many layers there are... "Seven" or "three" or "four", whatever...

This comes across as pantheism. God is wholly and completely transcendent and other than all things. There are only two fundamental categories: God and everything else. God is everywhere and therefore St. Paul can say that God is in all things, and quote the Greek poet saying that "In Him we move and breathe and have our being" but the fundamental transcendence of God is an essential point of Christian theology.

Science knows that there are multiple other dimensions, other layers of realities, connected to this one, which we interact with and even "pass through", moment by moment, every single moment of everyday... Though not "consciously", but rather kind of "unconsciously", unaware of them... But science is just beginning to be able to prove their "there" but doesn't understand, or understands very little about them as of yet...

God Bless!

I think you might be a little confused by what the current scientific understanding of things are.

In theoretical physics there may be as many as eleven dimensions, by "dimension" physicists don't mean science fiction or fantasy "dimensions" as in "other worlds"; they mean that where we only experience four-dimensional space-time (three dimensions of space and one dimension of time) there are as many as eleven dimensions of space-time. We exist in all these dimensions we just can't experience them or observe them directly because we can only really perceive three dimensions of space and the fourth dimension of time.

Also there are hypothetical scenarios involving possible parallel universes, there are several kinds for example bubble universes, or quantum universes, or depending on the ultimate shape of the universe there may simply exist infinite possibilities in the one universe, but because of the infinite amount of space that means that there would be infinite worlds identical to our own, cosmic doppelgangers of each one of us, essentially all because given infinite space you roll the dice a seemingly infinite number of times you'll eventually roll the same number more than once. But none of these deal with the kind of "realities" that I think you're talking about.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Neogaia777]

Paradise and Gehenna are the way that the Jews conceived of the waiting between death and resurrection. They aren't, in and of themselves, what's important but rather echoing forward to the resurrection of the dead at the consummation of history. The language to describe them are chiefly metaphorical and not to be taken literally. Which is to say, there is no literal place with literal fire and literal worms gnawing at the flesh of the wicked. Beyond saying that they are a foretaste of what is to come is chiefly to engage in pure speculation and go well beyond what we should say with any dogmatic certainty.

No, I don't believe that Heaven, Paradise, Gehenna are literal places.

Don't certain passages in scripture say or suggest that they are actual places where one is in either a firey torment, or in a place of comfort and delight? Perhaps not literal as in not physical, but a place where the person's soul or spirit is in and experiencing the reality and nature of either place, but not a literal (as in the sense of what we consider literal or real) not a literal or physical place, but is a place where one is still conscious (in spirit perhaps) and having an experience there perhaps in a spiritual sense...

Like a Rockstar who gets money and women (perhaps men also, who knows) and drugs an alcohol and parties it up, with all kinds of sin... How long does it take, before the drugs, the alcohol, the women, and the money even, no longer satisfy and leave him cold, dead and completely "empty" essentially and no longer bring him any pleasure or delight at all, but only make him suffer and extremely miserable...

In this life, when and if he reaches this point, he has the chance to change them, but say, if he dies before this happens, while he's still enjoying it, in Gehenna these things that he chose and never repented of, or changed his ways of/from, he could be stuck in them eternally or for a very long time, in the afterlife... Which all sin, over a long enough time period, makes you feel like your in a fire (torment) that never kills you and you suffer in agony and misery... Whereas those who repented and changed their ways in life and made the successful conversion in their heart from desiring wicked things to good things, get the other, the opposite, afterward... Everyone gets their hearts desire and what they chose in the end...

This comes across as pantheism. God is wholly and completely transcendent and other than all things. There are only two fundamental categories: God and everything else. God is everywhere and therefore St. Paul can say that God is in all things, and quote the Greek poet saying that "In Him we move and breathe and have our being" but the fundamental transcendence of God is an essential point of Christian theology.

So, God "is" all things, or he is separate from some things? Some things are him and some things are not? If so, what things are him and what things are not him? Is energy him? If so, doesn't energy exist in all things?

I think you might be a little confused by what the current scientific understanding of things are.

In theoretical physics there may be as many as eleven dimensions, by "dimension" physicists don't mean science fiction or fantasy "dimensions" as in "other worlds"; they mean that where we only experience four-dimensional space-time (three dimensions of space and one dimension of time) there are as many as eleven dimensions of space-time. We exist in all these dimensions we just can't experience them or observe them directly because we can only really perceive three dimensions of space and the fourth dimension of time.

True, I am a little confused about it, but that is why I am asking questions and seeking to understand...

Are there any good, possible working theories on what these (grand total eleven) (that would mean seven, right?) these other seven dimensions of space-time might be or consist of...? If space and time are four, then are these others different from that?

Also there are hypothetical scenarios involving possible parallel universes, there are several kinds for example bubble universes, or quantum universes, or depending on the ultimate shape of the universe there may simply exist infinite possibilities in the one universe, but because of the infinite amount of space that means that there would be infinite worlds identical to our own, cosmic doppelgangers of each one of us, essentially all because given infinite space you roll the dice a seemingly infinite number of times you'll eventually roll the same number more than once. But none of these deal with the kind of "realities" that I think you're talking about.

-CryptoLutheran

I find this all very interesting and I have a lot of questions, but I'll try to just focus on a few... Thanks for sharing it...

Isn't there at least a/one fabric of another reality (another kind of space) that is like a layer, perhaps the best word is "under" (though that may not be exactly fitting) underneath this one, basically? Like sub-space or something like that? Does any of this information you shared suggest anything like that?

Much thanks for your time and reply, if you could answer me the best you feel you can it would be much appreciated...

God Bless!

 

[ViaCrucis]

Don't certain passages in scripture say or suggest that they are actual places where one is in either a firey torment, or in a place of comfort and delight? Perhaps not literal as in not physical, but a place where the person's soul or spirit is in and experiencing the reality and nature of either place, but not a literal (as in the sense of what we consider literal or real) not a literal or physical place, but is a place where one is still conscious (in spirit perhaps) and having an experience there perhaps in a spiritual sense...

Location without physicality makes very little sense. Location only makes sense in a physical universe; what does does a non physical location even mean in any meaningful way that you or I could understand?

Like a Rockstar who gets money and women (perhaps men also, who knows) and drugs an alcohol and parties it up, with all kinds of sin... How long does it take, before the drugs, the alcohol, the women, and the money even, no longer satisfy and leave him cold, dead and completely "empty" essentially and no longer bring him any pleasure or delight at all, but only make him suffer and extremely miserable...

In this life, when and if he reaches this point, he has the chance to change them, but say, if he dies before this happens, while he's still enjoying it, in Gehenna these things that he chose and never repented of, or changed his ways of/from, he could be stuck in them eternally or for a very long time, in the afterlife... Which all sin, over a long enough time period, makes you feel like your in a fire (torment) that never kills you and you suffer in agony and misery... Whereas those who repented and changed their ways in life and made the successful conversion in their heart from desiring wicked things to good things, get the other, the opposite, afterward... Everyone gets their hearts desire and what they chose in the end...

Sure, but all of that describes something more like a kind of experience. My point was that I see no reason to assume the language used in Scripture should be taken literally, or to describe some location or place--in part for the reason I mentioned above.

So, God "is" all things, or he is separate from some things? Some things are him and some things are not? If so, what things are him and what things are not him? Is energy him? If so, doesn't energy exist in all things?

No. Just the opposite. God is not anything He made. God is not the universe, God is not energy. God is God, He is above all things, beyond all things, completely different from and completely other than all things.

True, I am a little confused about it, but that is why I am asking questions and seeking to understand...

Are there any good, possible working theories on what these (grand total eleven) (that would mean seven, right?) these other seven dimensions of space-time might be or consist of...? If space and time are four, then are these others different from that?

Try here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_dimensions

Essentially, the extra dimensions are necessitated in order for the mathematical calculations to make sense--they are purely hypothetical and exist, essentially, by the necessity of math.

The issue is fundamentally that there are two ways of understanding the properties of the universe and where the math works, the Standard Model which includes Einstein's theories of General and Special Relativity; and then there is Quantum Mechanics. The Standard Model works on large (comparatively) scales, Quantum Mechanics on very small scales. The biggest problem in physics is that, as of yet, there is no known way for both to play nice together. That is the math at the quantum level makes sense, and observations of things at the sub-atomic level are consistent; but when you scale them up they stop making sense. Likewise the standard model makes sense, when dealing with things bigger than sub-atomic particles such as stars, planets, galaxies, dogs, cats, you, and me all the math works, but stops working and making sense when you get to the sub-atomic level. So the goal in modern physics is to figure out how to get both to play nice together, how to get them both to work, and thus find a "Theory of Everything" as it were. String Theory, M-Theory, etc are all attempts to reach that goal. So all talk of extra dimensions, fundamentally, are ways in which to figure out how to understand how the universe works consistently at both the sub-atomic and larger level.

I'm not a physicist and I'm quite terrible at math, so I'm not the person to go to learn more than that; and I suspect to really wrap your head around it all you need to have several Ph.Ds and be someone like Stephen Hawking.

I find this all very interesting and I have a lot of questions, but I'll try to just focus on a few... Thanks for sharing it...

Isn't there at least a/one fabric of another reality (another kind of space) that is like a layer, perhaps the best word is "under" (though that may not be exactly fitting) underneath this one, basically? Like sub-space or something like that? Does any of this information you shared suggest anything like that?

Much thanks for your time and reply, if you could answer me the best you feel you can it would be much appreciated...

God Bless!

As far as I know nothing like that exists outside of pure speculation and science fiction.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Greg J.]

I'm not speaking to anyone in particular, just adding info. That our spacetime is more than 4 dimensions is unproven. However, suggesting that our spacetime could be 10 or 11 dimensions helps define "universe" in this context—it acknowledges that all the dimensions are part of the same universe. God created our spacetime, and hence is not just hiding off in another dimension. He transcends (exists outside of) all spacetime.

 

[Neogaia777]

Location without physicality makes very little sense. Location only makes sense in a physical universe; what does does a non physical location even mean in any meaningful way that you or I could understand?



Sure, but all of that describes something more like a kind of experience. My point was that I see no reason to assume the language used in Scripture should be taken literally, or to describe some location or place--in part for the reason I mentioned above.

A place of experience without location perhaps? Is that possible?

No. Just the opposite. God is not anything He made. God is not the universe, God is not energy. God is God, He is above all things, beyond all things, completely different from and completely other than all things.

Separate from all things that are not him? There are a lot of scriptures (I'm not going to bother posting them) that would greatly disagree with that... That kinda presents a problem... Were some of the scriptures "wrong"?

Try here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_dimensions

Essentially, the extra dimensions are necessitated in order for the mathematical calculations to make sense--they are purely hypothetical and exist, essentially, by the necessity of math.

The issue is fundamentally that there are two ways of understanding the properties of the universe and where the math works, the Standard Model which includes Einstein's theories of General and Special Relativity; and then there is Quantum Mechanics. The Standard Model works on large (comparatively) scales, Quantum Mechanics on very small scales. The biggest problem in physics is that, as of yet, there is no known way for both to play nice together. That is the math at the quantum level makes sense, and observations of things at the sub-atomic level are consistent; but when you scale them up they stop making sense. Likewise the standard model makes sense, when dealing with things bigger than sub-atomic particles such as stars, planets, galaxies, dogs, cats, you, and me all the math works, but stops working and making sense when you get to the sub-atomic level. So the goal in modern physics is to figure out how to get both to play nice together, how to get them both to work, and thus find a "Theory of Everything" as it were. String Theory, M-Theory, etc are all attempts to reach that goal. So all talk of extra dimensions, fundamentally, are ways in which to figure out how to understand how the universe works consistently at both the sub-atomic and larger level.

I'm not a physicist and I'm quite terrible at math, so I'm not the person to go to learn more than that; and I suspect to really wrap your head around it all you need to have several Ph.Ds and be someone like Stephen Hawking.



As far as I know nothing like that exists outside of pure speculation and science fiction.

-CryptoLutheran

Do they "not play nice together", possibly because they are two different "realities" or worlds, with different laws and rules, perhaps, or not? Do/did things larger than sub-atomic, emerge or come from the sub-atomic and/or smaller level...? I guess what I'm trying to ask is if the sub-atomic or smaller level existed before anything larger than sub-atomic did?

Thanks for answering, I enjoy and appreciate it, if you could answer more, that would be great...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I'm not speaking to anyone in particular, just adding info. That our spacetime is more than 4 dimensions is unproven. However, suggesting that our spacetime could be 10 or 11 dimensions helps define "universe" in this context—it acknowledges that all the dimensions are part of the same universe. God created our spacetime, and hence is not just hiding off in another dimension. He transcends (exists outside of) all spacetime.

I just don't think it "jives" with scripture unless you believe that God is everywhere and everything, also transcends everything we currently know or can know currently at the same time, but also is and exists in everything we do currently know also....

God Bless!

 

[ViaCrucis]

I just don't think it "jives" with scripture unless you believe that God is everywhere and everything, also transcends everything we currently know or can know currently at the same time, but also is and exists in everything we do currently know also....

God Bless!

God is not everything. That's pantheism and it's wrong.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

A place of experience without location perhaps? Is that possible?

What would that mean in any way that makes sense to you and me? That's kind of my point. The very idea of location or "place-ness" or "where-ness" only makes sense in the context of our world of height, depth, etc where you and I experience our every-day lives as physical creatures part of the material, physical universe. the idea of a "place" without location is, essentially, nonsense. Like trying to speak of a square triangle.

Separate from all things that are not him? There are a lot of scriptures (I'm not going to bother posting them) that would greatly disagree with that... That kinda presents a problem... Were some of the scriptures "wrong"?

What Scripture do you think says that God is part of creation? On the contrary Scripture consistently speaks of God being beyond creation, above creation, transcending creation.

Do they "not play nice together", possibly because they are two different "realities" or worlds, with different laws and rules, perhaps, or not? Do/did things larger than sub-atomic, emerge or come from the sub-atomic and/or smaller level...? I guess what I'm trying to ask is if the sub-atomic or smaller level existed before anything larger than sub-atomic did?

They don't play nice together because we haven't figured out how to make the math work together for both. They aren't different "realities", the quantum and standard model both describe the same universe: our universe. Just merely describe the universe at different scales.

-CryptoLutheran