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Is there a correlation between being a TE and being a skeptic?

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chaoschristian

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I am a skeptic.

I don't accept the easy answer.

I always want to dig deeper than the face of things.

Face value has little to no value for me.

I want to see what's inside the box.

I want to see what's outside of the box.

I want to analyze the box under an electron-microscope and run bits of it through a particle accelerator.

I'm the kid who took apart all of his dad's farm equipment, just so see how it works.

I'm the annoying one that keeps asking, "Why?"

I'm the kid in the class that you groan at when I ask just one more question before the teacher moves on.

When you read this, does any of it resonate with you? Is there a correlation between being a TE and being a skeptic?

And is this quality something that acts as an irritant to our fellow Christians? Like, when we witness to our faith, but still go on asking questions about God, life, the universe and everything?


 

Remus

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chaoschristian said:
I am a skeptic.
Me too.
I don't accept the easy answer.
Me either.
I always want to dig deeper than the face of things.
Same here.
Face value has little to no value for me.
I wouldn't go that far. I don't discount the possiblity that the "face value" is accurate simply because it is "face value".
I want to see what's inside the box.
Aye
I want to see what's outside of the box.
Yeap, me too.
I want to analyze the box under an electron-microscope and run bits of it through a particle accelerator.
You bet!
I'm the kid who took apart all of his dad's farm equipment, just so see how it works.
It was electric shavers, stereos, etc... for me.
I'm the annoying one that keeps asking, "Why?"
Once again, me too.
I'm the kid in the class that you groan at when I ask just one more question before the teacher moves on.
Actually, I'm the kid that would catch the teacher in their "gloss overs". I had to learn to keep my mouth shut.
When you read this, does any of it resonate with you?
Sure does!
Is there a correlation between being a TE and being a skeptic?
None at all.

And is this quality something that acts as an irritant to our fellow Christians?
Actually it's your sig that is an irritant to your fellow Christians.
 
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chaoschristian

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Thanks, Remus, its good to hear from a fellow skeptic.

I still have my dad's Norelco electric shaver/ It's now some 30 years old, and still working. Fortunately I got a lot of experience disassembling his farm equipment so that when the shaver goes out its a piece of cake for me to strip it down and build back up again to working condition.

Remus said:
Actually it's your sig that is an irritant to your fellow Christians.

OK, I've had my fun with that sig. Time to move on.
 
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Remus

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chaoschristian said:
Thanks, Remus, its good to hear from a fellow skeptic.

I still have my dad's Norelco electric shaver/ It's now some 30 years old, and still working. Fortunately I got a lot of experience disassembling his farm equipment so that when the shaver goes out its a piece of cake for me to strip it down and build back up again to working condition.
I don't think I ever fixed one of my grandfather's shavers. He would give them to me after he got a new one. I would take it apart and make other things out of them.
OK, I've had my fun with that sig. Time to move on.
Thank you :)
 
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shernren

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Actually, I'm the kid that would catch the teacher in their "gloss overs". I had to learn to keep my mouth shut.

I understand completely. I'm in college now and I still leave about 25% of what I want to say in class actually unsaid. XD
 
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gluadys

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chaoschristian said:
I am a skeptic.

I don't accept the easy answer.

I always want to dig deeper than the face of things.

Face value has little to no value for me.

I want to see what's inside the box.

I want to see what's outside of the box.

I want to analyze the box under an electron-microscope and run bits of it through a particle accelerator.

I'm the kid who took apart all of his dad's farm equipment, just so see how it works.

I'm the annoying one that keeps asking, "Why?"

I'm the kid in the class that you groan at when I ask just one more question before the teacher moves on.

When you read this, does any of it resonate with you? Is there a correlation between being a TE and being a skeptic?

And is this quality something that acts as an irritant to our fellow Christians? Like, when we witness to our faith, but still go on asking questions about God, life, the universe and everything?



Well, I never much liked working with things mechanical, so I didn't take things apart and I am hopeless at putting them together. For that matter, I never learned to knit or embroider either, and I never met a sewing machine that didn't break down when I looked at it.

But I always loved exploring ideas and learning the varieties of ways one can philosophize about something. One line from Pascal always intrigued me:

The premises of all philosophies are true; where philosophers go wrong is in forgetting that the premises of their opponents are also true.

And a more familiar one:

Truth on this side of the Pyrenees is falsehood on the other side.

Also I loved learning other languages. I remember a Quebecois writing that there can never be a perfect translation from one language to another because each language views reality through a different window. It divides reality into concepts in different ways.

I don't know whether I would call myself a skeptic, but both of these lines of thinking have kept me open to the idea that there is always more than one perspective on things, and it is usually a happenstance of birth that leads us to think our own is the right one.
 
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Willtor

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I'm not a skeptic. I don't look at things impartially or without emotional attachment. I've tried, but I can't do it. The best I can do is to acknowledge that I am emotionally attached to my views, and to try to be honest, anyway. Thus, it was not an easy thing when I went from YEC to ID to TE. Much emotional strain.

But the fact is, I don't want to be wrong. At least, I don't want to remain wrong. I'd much rather understand the reality than live in self-delusion. I've had family that's asked me why I believe things that make me uncomfortable. I'm never quite sure how to respond, except that, I've come to certain conclusions, and I can't believe otherwise solely for comfort's sake.
 
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Dannager

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Actually, I'd be willing to bet that there is a correlation between educated acceptance of evolutionary theory among Christians and skepticism. It is doubtful that causation could be proven, but I've definitely been privy to a good deal of traditional skeptic behavior from the theistic evolution population here.
 
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Numenor

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I am not much of a skeptic. It took me a while to go from YEC to OEC to TE. I was as CS Lewis called himself, a reluctant convert. I am skeptical however of Scientists who speak outwith their realm of expertise, ie Dawkins and his ilk.
 
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relspace

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chaoschristian said:
I am a skeptic.

I don't accept the easy answer.

I always want to dig deeper than the face of things.

Face value has little to no value for me.

I want to see what's inside the box.

I want to see what's outside of the box.

I want to analyze the box under an electron-microscope and run bits of it through a particle accelerator.

I'm the kid who took apart all of his dad's farm equipment, just so see how it works.

I'm the annoying one that keeps asking, "Why?"

I'm the kid in the class that you groan at when I ask just one more question before the teacher moves on.

When you read this, does any of it resonate with you? Is there a correlation between being a TE and being a skeptic?

And is this quality something that acts as an irritant to our fellow Christians? Like, when we witness to our faith, but still go on asking questions about God, life, the universe and everything?
I like the four stages of spiritual development proposed by Scott Peck ("The Road Less Traveled"), which he refined from James Fowler's six stages, and which I will further refine according to my taste.


1. unconcerned or innocent
Scott Peck entitled this stage chaotic/antisocial. But I think more about how my boys react to religious and moral ideas as if they really haven't slightest idea what I or my wife are talking about. Scott peck calls the people in this stage "antisocial because, while they are capable of pretending to be loving, actually all of their relationships with their fellow human beings are self-serving and covertly, if not overtly, manipulative. Chaotic because, being unprincipled, they have no mechanism that might govern them other than their own will."


2. institutional / social / dogagmatic
Involves the giving up of self to the group to follow the thinking and ideas of the group. Learns the value of following, working in a group and learning from others.


3. skeptic
Learns to see the the falacies of rigid ideologies and rebels against trying to force reality to fit them. Scott Pecks says, "Invariably they are truth seekers."


4. mystic
Learns to see beyond the flaws in generalizations to the truths that are really there and to see the value of traditions inspite of their failings. Scott Peck sees the people of this stage as being "comfortable living in a world of mystery." I accept Scott Peck's name for this stage because of the idea in eastern mysticism that truth goes beyond the ability of words to express it. And so I think that the mystic goes beyond the limitations of words and sees a mulitfaceted reality by looking at the world from many different points of view. The beginning of this stage is when you start feeling skeptical about skepticism.


Scott Peck adopted these stages of spiritual development from his experiences as a psychiatrist where he found that his successes in helping peole were often associated with either leaving or with entering religious groups. So he concluded that he was helping them to move to a higher stage of spiritual development in both cases. Though he warns us not to take these stage too literally, as if everyone must be in one stage only. The stages are merely representative of a process of development in how we relate to truth and spirtituality, which has many components that are not neccessarily all mastered at the same time.


So in conclusion I would say that the TEist can be in any of these stages, but that it is stage 4 which is most representative of the TEist because it requires embracing multiple points of view and doesn't require easy answers or that all answers have to in fact be provided at all. The mystic and the TEist both are willing to embace the full complexity of a reality that is both scientific and spiritual.

P.S. The obvious implication here is that I see myself as largely in stage 4. I can come off as both extreme skeptic and devout believer, adopting either role as it suits my purpose.

P.S.S. You know your a mystic when..... you find yourself sympathizing with both sides of a heated debate but when you speak your mind you end up being blasted by both sides.
 
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Ave Maria

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I'm not a skeptic but I am a Theistic Evolutionist. I mean absolutely no offense to Creationists but I have always found that there are more people who believe in evolution in the more educated segments of the population.
 
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Pats

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I don't know if that makes me a skeptic, though. I have never doubted the reality of God or the truth of Jesus Christ as His son, so on that note, I am not skeptical.

However, I do like to ask, "why?" I must ask it.

Over the last several years I have been in the process of unraveling everything I've been taught, particularly with regards to spirituality and religion, and find out for myself what I really believe and why.

When I read about some of you talking about transitioning from a creationist to a TE, it makes me think about the 5 years I spent not celebrating Christmas. Last year was my first year to celebrate it after 5 years off, and honestly, I was still a little uncomfortalbe going back... but I don't want to derail this thread with that.

I can't say that I am a TE, so, I don't know how well I can answer the OP. But, I can't define what kind of creationism I believe at this time, either, since I am in a period of examining all of that. Does that make me a skeptic? a realist? an honest Christian?

I don't know.
 
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gluadys

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Pats said:
When I read about some of you talking about transitioning from a creationist to a TE, it makes me think about the 5 years I spent not celebrating Christmas. Last year was my first year to celebrate it after 5 years off, and honestly, I was still a little uncomfortalbe going back... but I don't want to derail this thread with that.

I had a similar experience many years ago. I even attended a Unitarian church for awhile. But in the end I found praising God much more meaningful that the self-help hymns prevalent in a Unitarian context.

I can't say that I am a TE, so, I don't know how well I can answer the OP. But, I can't define what kind of creationism I believe at this time, either, since I am in a period of examining all of that. Does that make me a skeptic? a realist? an honest Christian?

An honest Christian. Definitely. And that's the best kind.
 
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jereth

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chaoschristian said:
I am a skeptic.

That was a beautiful OP, mate. Would have rep'd it if I could. :thumbsup:

I can tell you that this TE is definitely a skeptic. I am skeptical about everything important to me, and hence my Christian faith comes under the microscope more than anything else. The wonderful thing is that my skeptic approach to Christianity has invariably led to the strengthening of my faith!

I'm sure that skepticism helped me "convert" from YEC to OEC to TE, but it was actually not at the forefront of my mind at the time. The primary factor that changed my mind was having my eyes opened to the sheer beauty of Genesis 1-3 as non-historical literature.

In answer to your question: I believe that there is a correlation between skepticism and TE, because (as I understand it) skepticism is one of the key philosophical underpinnings of science. And since there is no question that TE correlates with science, logically TE must correlate with skepticism yes?
 
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gluadys

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jereth said:
That was a beautiful OP, mate. Would have rep'd it if I could. :thumbsup:

I can tell you that this TE is definitely a skeptic. I am skeptical about everything important to me, and hence my Christian faith comes under the microscope more than anything else. The wonderful thing is that my skeptic approach to Christianity has invariably led to the strengthening of my faith!

You confirm what Peter Abelard said back in the 12th century:

It is by doubting that we come to inquiry and by inquiry that we come to truth.

And, of course, Socrates:

The unexamined life is not worth living.
 
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chaoschristian

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gluadys said:
You confirm what Peter Abelard said back in the 12th century:

It is by doubting that we come to inquiry and by inquiry that we come to truth.

And, of course, Socrates:

The unexamined life is not worth living.

Gluadys, I envy the library of your mind.
 
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Willtor

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haha_deadthread.jpg


Okay, call me a skeptic. :)
 
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