Is the self eternal?

[ananda]

Nope. I'm just a Lover of my Beloved God. Some would say the "Religion of the Heart".

There are many with in the various Wisdom traditions that would echo something similar to what I wrote. My study at the moment is Thomas Berry and Teilhard de Chardin, both of whom are Christian mystics and both say something similar. It's Teilhard whose lens I see things through right now as I test his ideas. But one could add the Sufies, my favorates being Rumi and Inayat Khan. And of course as you did, add the Hindu mystics to the list as well as the indigenous shamans around the world.

.

I agree ... I appreciate many wise insights from the different traditions. Thanks for sharing your testimony!

 

[Colter]

Hey Colter...

What's a "psychic change"? You said this happened to you at 22yo and I've never heard that term before, so I wondered what it means

The term "psychic change" comes from the 12 step programs, it's the same as a spiritual awakening. Dr. Carl Young described the spiritual awakening like this "the ideas, attitudes and emotions which used to be the guiding force of these men are cast aside, a completly new set of motives and conceptions dominate them."

The apostle Paul had an enormous psychic change.

 

[Colter]

How do you think the soul grows.
How do you think that one "cooperates with spirit".

The spirit birth or rebirth is where it begins, when we grow in spirit then we could say the soul is growing.

 

[Winken]

IN my understanding, my "self" consists of a combination of five constantly mutable things: matter, sensation, perception, mental objects, and consciousness. Taken together, I perceive my "self". Do you propose that the essential "self" is eternal, and what is it exactly that is eternal?

No. Self=mind, will, emotions. Self-control is Spiritual.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The term "psychic change" comes from the 12 step programs, it's the same as a spiritual awakening. Dr. Carl Young described the spiritual awakening like this "the ideas, attitudes and emotions which used to be the guiding force of these men are cast aside, a completly new set of motives and conceptions dominate them."

The apostle Paul had an enormous psychic change.

Gotcha, thanks...I honestly hadn't heard that phrase before.

 

[TillICollapse]

The term "psychic change" comes from the 12 step programs, it's the same as a spiritual awakening. Dr. Carl Young Jung described ...

I think you meant this ^^^ ...

ETA: (in case you missed it, I edited your post, see the part I quoted)

 

[GrimKingGrim]

cold maybe, but reality...only fooling yourself on that point

What? This is laughable how people refuse to accept fate.

why are atheists so angry and hateful?

Who is? I'm annoyed, yes. But when I signed up for this forum I knew what I was getting into.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

How in the world did you come to the point where you think you are smarter and better than God?

Because I know that the moon isn't a light and he doesn't seem to. Me - 1, God - 0

You are going to prove Him wrong in death?

If he's there he'll prove me wrong for sure.

You are going to prove you have the right to exist as long as you live?

I don't think I have to prove that.

You have the right to exist but you do not have the right to say no to death when death's finalized for you?

Spell this one out for me because I don't understand.

All of your vile hatred against God is useless, I'm sorry...you need to get saved

Vile? Me? Noooo.

today could be your last chance to be saved from Hell.

Still fear styx more so than there.

 

[ananda]

No. Self=mind, will, emotions. Self-control is Spiritual.

Do you believe that your "self" is eternal?

 

[Eudaimonist]

I believe I am understanding it correctly. A professor of pediatrics determined that a number of individuals with hydrocephalus had brains less than 5% of normal size, one of which only had "a millimeter thick layer of brain tissue" yet he had an IQ of 126. What did I understand incorrectly?

There is a brain there. It's simply less than 5% of normal size. That doesn't disprove a mind dependency on brain function. Simple as that.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Colter]

I think you meant this ^^^ ...

ETA: (in case you missed it, I edited your post, see the part I quoted)

Yes, dat Jung

 

[dlamberth]

Do you propose that the essential "self" is eternal, and what is it exactly that is eternal?

I'm redirecting your question back at you. First, what would you say is the "essential self"? Is it eternal? And what is it exactly that is eternal?

.

 

[dlamberth]

No. Self=mind, will, emotions. Self-control is Spiritual.

Does a rock have a "self"? When I put my Shaman hat on, they sure do in fact have a self. And one that is eternal. Do they fit your criteria? I'm not so sure about that.

.

 

[Davian]

why are atheists so angry and hateful?

I have not seen any indication of that in these forums. Have you? Where?

 

[Davian]

It's hard to watch people shaking their fists in God's face claiming they have the right to exist outside of Hell when they have no power to keep themselves out of the fire.

People that are "shaking their fists in God's face" obviously believe in God. Why would they go to Hell?

 

[Winken]

Do you believe that your "self" is eternal?

No.

 

[ananda]

There is a brain there. It's simply less than 5% of normal size. That doesn't disprove a mind dependency on brain function. Simple as that.

eudaimonia,

Mark

You're right, it doesn't disprove a mind dependency on brain function, but I think it strongly suggests that.

 

[ananda]

I'm redirecting your question back at you. First, what would you say is the "essential self"? Is it eternal? And what is it exactly that is eternal?

.

In my OP I stated: IN my understanding, my "self" consists of a combination of five constantly mutable things: matter, sensation, perception, mental objects, and consciousness. Taken together, I perceive my "self" ...

The self is not eternal in the sense that it is immutable. The self continues as long as the component parts exist together, albeit in a ever-continually changing state.

A car, in the same way, exists only when its component parts (engine, transmission, frame, accessories, etc.) exist together. The car is not eternal, nor immutable. The car is also in an ever-continually changing state.

Just as the car ceases to exist and becomes only an idea when the component parts are disassembled, so the self ceases to exist and enters (and becomes) Nibbana when its components are released through detachment. It returns to the eternal bliss of the uncreated, unformed, unoriginated, unborn.

 

[ananda]

No.

Thank you for your eloquent post

 

[muichimotsu]

Not sure if my chiming in is much to speak of, since the ones that believe in an eternal self are utilizing an especially weak notion of self to begin with and a virtually unfalsifiable and unassailable ontology in relation to its survival.

The Buddhist notion of anatta has been a strong influence in regards to that aspect of philosophy, not much else compelling besides related bundle self theory and emergent mind theory, related to the mind-body dependence.

Seems like the arguments for an eternal self are positing more mysteries than the ones they purport to solve in regards to the dualist issues as well as general pseudoscience or metaphysically idealistic philosophy. It's usually presuppositional in nature, thinking that that's the only way things can make sense, everything else either full of logical holes or creating an unfulfilling worldview.