Is the rapture a lie?

Marvin Knox said:

I rest my case.

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I said lean, not competely believe. There are many Orthodox who believe in a literal reign, but I don't know any who believe in the rapture.

Zyon1 said:

I don't believe you.

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Zyon1 said:

After the tribulation, it's best not to disregard a verse.

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Well you can believe what you want but since the verses your provided failed to prove your point, and since you point would lead people outside of the historical Christian belief...

Zyon1 said:

After the tribulation, it's best not to disregard a verse.

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My emphasis was on the being taken up into heaven part, not the timing part--show that.

Of the two verses you cited, neither mention Jesus snatching Christians up into heaven. That's why I'm asking you to show something--anything--that says this.

-CryptoLutheran

rockytopva said:

Then Christ comes not as a thief.

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That one has perplexed me a bit and why I sympathize with your pre-trib view. All other views have the rapture after horrifying events unlike the world has ever seen. I would gather everyone would have Matthew 24, Luke 21, Revelation and many OT prophet books open telling everyone "this is what comes next and now we see Babylon burning so the Lord is not far off."

I might point out: being wrong isn't necessarily a lie, it's simply being wrong. Whether the rapture is or isn't going to happen is almost beside the point when the real question is: does someone believes in it or not. If they do, then preaching about it isn't lying. See the difference?
tulc(just something he thought should be pointed out)

Zyon1 said:

The Rapture is not a lie, Jesus is coming back soon!

Matthew 24:27 (MEV)

"For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

Matthew 24:29-31 (MEV)

"Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (Rapture)

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Gather in Greek is "Collect", so God will collect his elect. Looks like the Rapture.

redleghunter said:

That one has perplexed me a bit and why I sympathize with your pre-trib view. All other views have the rapture after horrifying events unlike the world has ever seen. I would gather everyone would have Matthew 24, Luke 21, Revelation and many OT prophet books open telling everyone "this is what comes next and now we see Babylon burning so the Lord is not far off."

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If, on the other hand, the tribulation Scripture speaks of is not a set eschatological period of time (whether 3.5 or 7 years), but instead the trials and troubles of God's people, this becomes a much less problematic issue.

I would argue that in the Olivet Discourse when the Lord talks about the "tribulation in those days" He is not referring to some "end times" period, He is very much still talking about the future destruction of the Temple, the great tribulation He refers to is the period of trouble and trial His followers will endure under Nero and the Jewish-Roman War, the siege of Jerusalem, the destruction of the Temple, etc.

The "tribulation of those days" speaks of the future trials and tribulations which the Church will face. The gathering of the elect from the four corners of the world is not the eschatological gathering of the Church at the resurrection at the Lord's Parousia, but the sending forth of the Gospel to the nations, here "angels" is more generic as "messengers" rather than the celestial servants of God.

I'd argue the Lord isn't talking about the Eschaton until verse 36. Prior to this He has spoken of the destruction of Jerusalem and the general troubles His Church will endure, with warnings against believing false reports, or being deceived by claims of signs of the End. Because ultimately the End will come without warning, like a thief in the night.

-CryptoLutheran

Zyon1 said:

Gather in Greek is "Collect", so God will collect his elect. Looks like the Rapture.

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Do you see anything there about being collected or gathered into heaven there? I certainly don't. It says from one end of heaven to the other, they are gathered from the distant place to the distant place, from one side of the world to the other. Nothing about being taken into heaven, however.

Please show that.

-CryptoLutheran

Jesus' Girl said:

I see it a lot being written and been told it. I want to know why people believe it is false.

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A lot of people can't handle the truth, so they buy the false narratives promoted by the anti-pretribulation Rapture proponents.

The Rapture cannot be a lie, and here's the reason why:

JOHN 14

NO TALK ABOUT TRIBULATION
1 Let not your heart be troubled...

JESUS IS GOD, BELIEVE HIM AND BELIEVE IN HIM
...ye believe in God, believe also in me.

HEAVEN HAS MANY MANSIONS FOR THE SAINTS
2 In my Father's house are many mansions...

CONFIRMATION THAT JESUS IS TELLING THE TRUTH
...if it were not so, I would have told you....

CHRIST HAS GONE TO HEAVEN TO PREPARE A PLACE FOR US
...I go to prepare a place for you...

THE RAPTURE IS GUARANTEED BY CHRIST
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again...

THE LORD COMES IN THE AIR TO RECEIVE THE SAINTS
...and receive you unto myself...

IF CHRIST IS IN HEAVEN, WE WILL ALSO BE THERE ETERNALLY
...that where I am, there ye may be also.

These words were spoken to the eleven apostles, but they were certainly not limited to those few men. They are for the whole Church, as we see here (Rev 7:9,10):

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

According to the New Testament, the Resurrection/Rapture of the saints has always been IMMINENT. Which means it could occur at any time, without any warning, and with no preceding signs whatsoever.

ViaCrucis said:

Do you see anything there about being collected or gathered into heaven there? I certainly don't. It says from one end of heaven to the other, they are gathered from the distant place to the distant place, from one side of the world to the other. Nothing about being taken into heaven, however.

Please show that.

-CryptoLutheran

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What do you think the verse means? I'm curious to hear your take on it.

mark kennedy said:

The rapture is just another word for the resurrection

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Not exactly. However it is the Resurrection/Rapture. Which means resurrection for those who have passed on, and rapture for those who are alive at the coming of Christ for His saints.

This is NOT the second coming of Christ at all. That will occur after the Marriage of the Lamb (following the Resurrection/Rapture).

Zyon1 said:

What do you think the verse means? I'm curious to hear your take on it.

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I offered the interpretation I tend to lean toward in a previous post. But the gist of it is that the primary thing Jesus is talking about in the Olivet Discourse is the future destruction of Jerusalem. That is, after all, the context here. Jesus and His disciples were leaving the Temple grounds and Jesus told them that not one stone would be left standing, which eventually prompts His disciples to ask them what He means, asking, "When will these things be, and what are the signs of Your coming and of the end of the age?"

Jesus tells them several things, for one, He warns them against false signs, false reports, and false messiahs, He says,

"Watch out that no one misleads you. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will mislead many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. Make sure that you are not alarmed, for this must happen, but the end is still to come. For nation will rise up in arms against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these things are the beginning of birth pains."

Wars, rumors of wars, natural disasters, etc are not signs of the end, they are things that will happen in the indefinite and foreseeable future, as they always have. He wants His disciples to not be taken captive by reports and claims of the End, by those who would mislead them.

Then Jesus predicts the destruction of the Temple, and things surrounding it. He tells them that they will be arrested, and put on trial, and persecuted. He gives specific signs to watch out for concerning the destruction coming to Jerusalem, mentioning armies encamped around the city, and the abomination that causes desolation, these things are a matter of ancient history for us today, but had not yet taken place when Jesus said this.

The gathering of the elect isn't eschatological, but rather the sending out of the ministers of the Gospel to the ends of the earth to preach Christ's word.

Jesus doesn't begin to talk about His Parousia until verse 36, when He says, "Concerning that day..." He is clear that the Day of His return in glory and judgment is not known and cannot be known, except by God the Father. It will be as a thief in the night, He repeats this multiple times. He describes it being like in Noah's time, people going about their usual business when suddenly and without warning the flood came and wiped the wicked away; He tells his followers explicitly to be vigilant since they do not know when their Lord will return. Then He gives two parables: in the Parable of the Talents He rebukes those who would sit around and not be using the gifts given to them but instead squander them, in the Parable of the Ten Virgins half of the virgins don't bring enough oil to last through the night, they should have brought oil because they did not know the hour when the Bridegroom would come.

The bulk of the Olivet Discourse is specifically to warn against being misled about the End, and to give them warnings about what to look out for when Jerusalem and the Temple would be destroyed. He does talk about His coming at the End, but specifically to tell them (and by extension us) to always be vigilant because we do not, and cannot know when the Lord will return.

The Lord will return when He returns, and not a minute sooner. Our job isn't to try and figure out when (since we can't know), but instead to be faithful to Christ's word, preach the Gospel, and go about His business in the world loving our neighbor, feeding the hungry, and being the Body of Jesus Christ in this present age.

-CryptoLutheran

Micah888 said:

Not exactly. However it is the Resurrection/Rapture. Which means resurrection for those who have passed on, and rapture for those who are alive at the coming of Christ for His saints.

This is NOT the second coming of Christ at all. That will occur after the Marriage of the Lamb (following the Resurrection/Rapture).

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I'll just leave this here:

"But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also came through a man. For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him. Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he has brought to an end all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be eliminated is death. For he has put everything in subjection under his feet. But when it says “everything” has been put in subjection, it is clear that this does not include the one who put everything in subjection to him. And when all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all."

-CryptoLutheran

Yes the second coming of Jesus is true, but people won't begin floating. That doesn't even make sense. Imagine if you were home, would Jesus leave you behind because of a roof?!? Of course not.

Radagast said:

I believe it is false. I do not believe in two "Second Comings" (the "Rapture" and another one).

I believe that either I will die and go to be with Jesus, or that Jesus will come for me and other Christians when He returns

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The more posts of yours I see, the more Lutheran you sound.

☦Marius☦ said:

There are many Orthodox who believe in a literal reign, but I don't know any who believe in the rapture.

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Again - in a "literal" reign - who would the Lord (and us) reign over if all saved persons on the earth receive their glorified body in a twinkling of an eye and no long are given in marriage and reproduce children?

Who would literally rebel at the end of the Millennium if it is literal?

When we talk about the literal millennium (in juxtaposition with the "secret" rapture) in a thread like this - we are talking about the simple picture given us in the Book of Revelation and in the O.T. concerning the millennial reign of the Messiah.

I understand that there is quite a bit of difference between the Orthodox and evangelicals like myself concerning the process of salvation.

Without over simplifying those differences - I believe I was raised spiritually when I believed and am now reining spiritually with Christ in Heaven in the Kingdom of God where I am seated with Him.

When He comes in glory I will also reign with Him in a literal Millennium.

You and those of the Orthodox persuasion, on the other hand, believe in a "process" of salvation which might well include what you would present as a "present" millennium.

I don't want to argue the differences in our conception of salvation here. I only point out what I pointed out before.

Those who reject a literal rapture will likely also reject a literal reign in a literal Millennium - and those who reject a literal Millennial reign will likely also reject a literal rapture (as believed by many evangelicals).

Again - I see it played out here just as elsewhere.

ViaCrucis said:

Plenty of Chiliasts who don't accept the rapture, so that's simply not true.

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Then they either don't believe in a literal physical Millennial reign such as I am referring to and as taught in the Book of Revelation or they haven't thought things through in a completely systematic way.

Probably I should have said that they "tend to" reject those doctrines together - just as being born out here in this thread a many others before it along the same lines.

ViaCrucis said:

But that said, most Christians don't believe in a literal Millennium either, with the exception of a handful of early fathers such as Justin, Irenaeus, and Hippolytus, Chiliasm has largely been a fringe idea in the history of our religion.

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That's not at all surprising concerning the mixed nature of "Christianity".

As the Lord said,

"........... O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!" Luke 24:25

AND WHEN HE ASKED

"........when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8

ViaCrucis said:

The Lord will return when He returns, and not a minute sooner. Our job isn't to try and figure out when (since we can't know), but instead to be faithful to Christ's word, preach the Gospel, and go about His business in the world loving our neighbor, feeding the hungry, and being the Body of Jesus Christ in this present age.

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bump

ViaCrucis said:

...then when Christ comes, those who belong to him...

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And this is a reference to the Rapture.

Christ said "I will come again, and receive you unto myself" in John 14. Then we read in 1 Thess 4:16,17:

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

☦Marius☦ said:

Doesn't the Bible imply the end times will come when few even remember the name of Christ, or his teachings? And that's why the Antichrist will so easily take over?

Also when has God ever implied Christians are to be free of suffering? After all the early Church did endure persecution.


Can you give a patristic quote to substantiate your claim that the early church believed in the rapture?

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The best I've seen which I believe supports a post tribulation rapture is the following:

1. In the previous books I have set forth the causes for which God permitted these things to be made, and have pointed out that all such have been created for the benefit of that human nature which is saved, ripening for immortality that which is [possessed] of its own free will and its own power, and preparing and rendering it more adapted for eternal subjection to God. And therefore the creation is suited to [the wants of] man; for man was not made for its sake, but creation for the sake of man. Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing; Isaiah 40:15 so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be. Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.
(St. Irenaeus: Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 29)
A pre-trib view will focus on the blue above. A post trib (historic futurist or chiliastic view would focus on the brown above.)

In the court for the historic futurists with regards to Irenaeus would be the previous chapter 28 section 4.

4. And therefore throughout all time, man, having been moulded at the beginning by the hands of God, that is, of the Son and of the Spirit, is made after the image and likeness of God: the chaff, indeed, which is the apostasy, being cast away; but the wheat, that is, those who bring forth fruit to God in faith, being gathered into the barn. And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire [for purification], they may be fitted for the royal banquet. As a certain man of ours said, when he was condemned to the wild beasts because of his testimony with respect to God: I am the wheat of Christ, and am ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of God.
(St Irenaeus: Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 28)

ViaCrucis said:

If, on the other hand, the tribulation Scripture speaks of is not a set eschatological period of time (whether 3.5 or 7 years), but instead the trials and troubles of God's people, this becomes a much less problematic issue.

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Thank you for the reasoned response. Only issue I see above is the bolded. The time of great tribulation is God's wrath being poured out on earth. Now I'm not advocating the earth will be devoid of God's elect during that timeframe as I lean more towards the historic futurist view. However, it is clearly in Revelation a time the unrighteous have the wrath of God poured out on them.