Is the message of Christ Pacifism?

[Tkjjc]

I had this posted elsewhere, but it applies here as well

....it seems the conversation ALWAYS rolls around to killing is OK as Jesus even sanctioned it, right? WRONG!

Matt 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matt 23:34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,

Matt 24:9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

Luke 12:4 "I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.

But why would Jesus tell his Disciples to sell their outer garments and buy a sword, knowing that 2 would be enough? To full fill that which was spoken Matt 26:54, and then Jesus even offered a summation...

THOSE WHO LIVE BY THE SWORD, SHALL DIE BY THE SWORD...

Think that meant only for swords and only by being killed in the flesh? Interesting....as if the sword in the Word always meant a metal object.

A lot has been spoken about the OT and what GOD did and had His people do as far as claiming the Land of Israel, defending it, and having a rebellious people go into bondage and back out again,,,wars and more wars,,,

Who are we to know the Plans of God, except that which was written? We now know that is was to full fill Christ coming in the flesh. Did they then? Even in Rev it talks about the final wars....but as followers of Christ we as Christians are CALLED to live a more better, peaceful way. An example to those who are unbelievers. Our Kingdom is NOT of this Earth, so why do many Christians claim that it is? I suppose that if you believe your Kingdom is of this Earth, defend it with ALL your might. My Kingdom is with Christ, so as He stated, in John 18:36, and I'll paraphrase for myself:

My Kingdom is not of this world. My Kingdom is with Christ in Heaven. If my Kingdom were of this world I would defend it with ALL my might, and with ALL means necessary. But since my Kingdom is not of this world, do to me what you will. I offer no resistance. I turn the other cheek. Peace will come to this realm, but only when the adversary is taken out of the way. Until that day comes, I will follow my Master in all that He does, and has done. He offered no resistance, and with His Word brought a Sword more powerful than any weapon on Earth. I choose life, not in this realm, as everything in this realm dies, but rather I choose LIFE in the next. This is the beauty of our Creator. Our Free Will to make that choice!

 

[Rion]

Using a sword to stop someone innocent from being killed, if you must, is fine. Using a sword to stop someone from being arrested (ala Peter) is not.

 

[dpartlow]

If I may interject, the answer choices are also hard to decipher. For one thing, what does "today's wars" mean? There are wars going on all the time and one is quite different from another.

I meant US wars, but unfortunately polls can't be edited as posts can be.

 

[dpartlow]

If Yeshua were pacifist, he would not have taken up a whip and become violent in the Temple.

If Yeshua were pacifist, he would not have instructed his disciples to get swords.

Yeshua was an observant Jew, halakhically perfect. Judaism is not pacifist. Christianity, the daughter of Judaism, is not pacifist. You cannot just edit out the parts of scripture you don't like.

#1 Whipping is not the same as killing.
#2 The swords we are called to bear are metaphorical (In my opinion - based on Paul's writings)
#3 Au contraire. There are many calls to faith and peaceful action in the old testament and rebukes of military aggresion. Jews repeatedly misunderstood what God wanted (that's why Jesus came and graced us with better understandings).
#4 All Christians were pacifist for the first 300 years of Christianity. Augustine was the first to attempt to justify military action and, In my opinion based on many many biblical verses - he was wrong.

 

[dpartlow]

Sometimes war is necessary.

James wrote:
You have war because you lack what you want;
You lack what you want because you don't ask God.

Faith is the only solution (and a real solution) to the problem of war.

 

[Albion]

I meant US wars, but unfortunately polls can't be edited as posts can be.

Yes, I understand that polls are fixed, unfortunately.
But even if we had understood the reference to mean only US wars, there are quite a lot of Americans who consider Afghanistan completely moral and Iraq the opposite. That means that there's no acceptable answer anyway.

 

[dpartlow]

Yes, I understand that polls are fixed, unfortunately.
But even if we had understood the reference to mean only US wars, there are quite a lot of Americans who consider Afghanistan completely moral and Iraq the opposite. That means that there's no acceptable answer anyway.

What do you think of Paul's statement that Christians do not war (physically). The only battle we are called to is a spiritual battle.

 

[theIdi0t]

....

The message of Christ is not pacifism it's creative love, it's what Saint Paul refers to as pouring hot coals over the heads of our enemies, and no better passage of scripture covers creative love than the "Sermon on the Mount."

War is never "good", sometimes we as human beings are limited and see it as our only choice, and if we make such choices, we should never say to ourselves that our "actions" are good, to slay our brothers, to leave dead children in the arms of mothers, is not what the God I serve takes joy in.

I served in the military, and I've seen the face of those who have killed, and the light is so far from them, and there is no way as a Believer, I will say that throwing men into a state of hell, is what God desires, and is what is Good.

 

[FrenchAffair]

Bombing over 650,000 innocent Iraqi civilians to death doesn’t seem like a cause that the Christ I know and love from the Bible would support. But it has never appeared as if George Bush has been able to understand much of anything he has read.

 

[GoodNewsJim]

hello?

Has anyone reached a consensus yet? I've read all these posts before, but they were from different people saying the same things.

Can I go to Jesus and say,"Hey God, I didn't understand you fully. Thats why I shot that dude who threatened to kill my family with a knife he was wielding. Was that right of me to do? Or should I have just let him stab us all?"

I think a lot of stuff on defending yourself and your family is too vague in the New Testament to be able to be taken as a message. As much as I enjoy God dictating my life in every aspect I can let him... He seems too vague in the NT to make any conclusions about self defense. Sure I love my enemy, but when he's attacking me, shouldn't I stop him?

I think God is deliberately vague. Sure we're supposed to be peacemakers, but to rule over renegades, you sometimes have to rule with a badge and a gun. Policemen enforce the peace, but they do it with force.
If God would say force is justified, people would probably twist his words to think offensive force was justified. Just like Jesus didn't talk much about Heaven because less people would believe him... Did Jesus talk little about defending yourself because it is so obvious to seek justice? Justice is talked about in proverbs.

I don't have any conclusions because every case is different and that Jesus didn't leave us with enough information to formulate a self defense rulebook.

 

[LLWHA]

It depends. Allowing someone to continue to beat a child/rape a woman is not love. Remember, even Jesus got mad and ran the money changers out of the temple. The World Wars is a good example. WWI was more or less fought over nothing. WWII, however, was to stop a great evil from consuming innocent lives. The first was an unjust war, the second was not. War on Terrorism...? Muddy waters, best I can say.

Also, the wars in the Bible were over people who were pretty messed up. It wasn't that God hated them, but that they wouldn't repent. Burning your children to death for idols seems to be a sure-fire way to wear out God's patience.

They were both fought for the money changers. The "synagogue of Satan" must have its blood.