Is the message of Christ Pacifism?

[LLWHA]

God started politics. God ordained government. God grants authority to those He chooses. God does not forbid men making laws.


No where are we told to avoid politics, choosing sides based on how His Spirit convicts us, serving in the military, defending ourselves from harm, waging war et al.

The commandments of men are forbideden!!

You are wrong.

Deut. 4:2 Ye shall not ADD unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the Commandments of the "I AM" your God which I COMMAND you.
Word here means Gods Law.
It is all over the Bible, no right and left.
Joshua 1:7 Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all The Law, which Moses My servant commanded thee: turn not from it [to] the right hand or [to] the left, that thou mayest prosper wheresoever thou goest.


This is also Idol worship like the House of Lords.
Jesus was always talking about these commandments of men. 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.
7:8 For laying aside the COMMANDment of God, ye hold the "Tradition" of men, [as] the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
7:9 And he said unto them, [SIZE=+1]Full well ye reject the COMMANDment of God, that ye may keep your own "Tradition".[/SIZE]

Today's Tradition is demon-crazy. Left and right blood sucking.

Politicks means many blood suckers. Poli=many ticks=bloodsuckers.

This idol worshiping of evil bloodsuckers is forbidden.

2:5 My Covenant was with him of Life and Peace; and I gave them to him [for] the fear with which he feared Me, and was afraid before My name.
2:6 The Law of Truth was in his mouth, and inequity was not found in his lips: he walked with Me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from inequity.
2:7 For the priest's lips should keep Knowledge, and they should seek The Law at his mouth: for he [is] the messenger of the "I AM" Lord of hosts.
2:8 But ye are departed out of The Way; ye have caused many to stumble at The Law; ye have corrupted The Covenant of Levi, saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts.



Winston Churchill is also quoted as having once said:

"Most people, sometime in their lives, stumble across truth. Most jump up, brush themselves off, and hurry on about their business as if nothing had happened." Just as a bell that has been rung cannot be "unrung", the annoying problem with the Truth is that, once you learn it, you can not "unlearn" it.

Deuteronomy 17:14 When thou art come unto the land which the "I AM" thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that [are] about me;
17:15 Thou shalt in any wise set [him] king over thee, whom the "I AM" thy God shall choose: [one] from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger (a Gentile) over thee, which [is] not thy brother.
17:16 But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt (slavery, Israel was enslaved under man made laws in Egypt), to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the "I AM" hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way. (No more man made laws and Slavery under these fake laws)
17:17 Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.
17:18 And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this Law in a book out of [that which is] before the priests the Levites (The Torah):
17:19 And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the "I AM" his God, to keep all the words of this Law and these Statutes, to DO them:
17:20 That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn NOT aside from the Commandment (The Covenant), [to] the right hand (right-wing politics), or [to] the left (left-wing politics): to the end that he may prolong [his] days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel.

Italian Renaissance statesman and political writer, Niccolo Machiavelli, wrote in The Prince, one of the most influential political works of all time, that governments are created to lie to the greatest number of people the greatest amount of the time.

Why do governments lie? To cover up their previous lies in order to protect the perpetrators, of course.


God HATES Politicks and Forbids men from making up laws!!

 

[dpartlow]

I think Paul is talking about the church. The church is not to war. The church is never to advance the kingdom of Christ by the sword. This is not because war is inherently wrong, but because it simply doesn't serve the church's purpose. The church's mission is to conquer souls, not lands. This is the meaning of John 18:36 "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight". Fighting on behalf of an earthly kingdom is an entirely different matter. I don't see that this applies to individual Christians fighting on behalf of the civil authorities. Incidentally, is acceptable for a Christian to serve in law enforcement? That is also a job that involves taking up arms on behalf of Caesar.

I agree he is referring to the Church. You, me, and every other Christian... we are the church, and as such we should not war (carnally) - Ours is a spiritual battle.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Okay, so the church should not war, because her battle is spiritual, not physical. Agreed, but the state's battle is physical. Is the state forbidden from war? Is it lawful for Caesar to bear the sword?

 

[dpartlow]

Okay, so the church should not war, because her battle is spiritual, not physical. Agreed, but the state's battle is physical. Is the state forbidden from war? Is it lawful for Caesar to bear the sword?

OK now are you a member of the churh or the state?

If you say both, then I would ask which takes priority in your life.

When as members of the church, we are to live one way, and as members of the state, another way - which do you choose?

 

[mont974x4]

The commandments of men are forbideden!!

You are wrong.

Deut. 4:2 Ye shall not ADD unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the Commandments of the "I AM" your God which I COMMAND you.
Word here means Gods Law.
It is all over the Bible, no right and left.
Joshua 1:7 Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all The Law, which Moses My servant commanded thee: turn not from it [to] the right hand or [to] the left, that thou mayest prosper wheresoever thou goest.


This is also Idol worship like the House of Lords.
Jesus was always talking about these commandments of men. 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.
7:8 For laying aside the COMMANDment of God, ye hold the "Tradition" of men, [as] the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
7:9 And he said unto them, [SIZE=+1]Full well ye reject the COMMANDment of God, that ye may keep your own "Tradition".[/SIZE]

Today's Tradition is demon-crazy. Left and right blood sucking.

Politicks means many blood suckers. Poli=many ticks=bloodsuckers.

This idol worshiping of evil bloodsuckers is forbidden.

2:5 My Covenant was with him of Life and Peace; and I gave them to him [for] the fear with which he feared Me, and was afraid before My name.
2:6 The Law of Truth was in his mouth, and inequity was not found in his lips: he walked with Me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from inequity.
2:7 For the priest's lips should keep Knowledge, and they should seek The Law at his mouth: for he [is] the messenger of the "I AM" Lord of hosts.
2:8 But ye are departed out of The Way; ye have caused many to stumble at The Law; ye have corrupted The Covenant of Levi, saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts.



Winston Churchill is also quoted as having once said:

"Most people, sometime in their lives, stumble across truth. Most jump up, brush themselves off, and hurry on about their business as if nothing had happened." Just as a bell that has been rung cannot be "unrung", the annoying problem with the Truth is that, once you learn it, you can not "unlearn" it.

Deuteronomy 17:14 When thou art come unto the land which the "I AM" thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that [are] about me;
17:15 Thou shalt in any wise set [him] king over thee, whom the "I AM" thy God shall choose: [one] from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger (a Gentile) over thee, which [is] not thy brother.
17:16 But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt (slavery, Israel was enslaved under man made laws in Egypt), to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the "I AM" hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way. (No more man made laws and Slavery under these fake laws)
17:17 Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.
17:18 And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this Law in a book out of [that which is] before the priests the Levites (The Torah):
17:19 And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the "I AM" his God, to keep all the words of this Law and these Statutes, to DO them:
17:20 That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn NOT aside from the Commandment (The Covenant), [to] the right hand (right-wing politics), or [to] the left (left-wing politics): to the end that he may prolong [his] days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel.

Italian Renaissance statesman and political writer, Niccolo Machiavelli, wrote in The Prince, one of the most influential political works of all time, that governments are created to lie to the greatest number of people the greatest amount of the time.

Why do governments lie? To cover up their previous lies in order to protect the perpetrators, of course.


God HATES Politicks and Forbids men from making up laws!!

God established governemnts and He gives authority to men. When governments/men make laws they are NOT adding to or taking away from Scripture. You have taken a verse/ideal out of context and used it for your own purposes wrongly.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

OK now are you a member of the churh or the state?

If you say both, then I would ask which takes priority in your life.

When as members of the church, we are to live one way, and as members of the state, another way - which do you choose?

I would appreciate it if you would answer my question before asking me any questions. I did ask you first.

 

[dpartlow]

I would appreciate it if you would answer my question before asking me any questions. I did ask you first.

Sorry, I meant to do so.
I don't see any reason Christians should not serve in law enforcement except perhaps in the role of executioner. Now, I would hope Christian Police officers would follow John the Baptist's advice to 'harm no one' and Christ's peaceful commandments.

I also don't see reasons Christian's can't be in the armed services, but I would also reccomend that they do likewise. There are many brave, useful, and legitimate purposes of the armed forces other than shooting/bombing the enemy.

Honestly I would not enlist (or want to be drafted) for the reason that I would not want to be put in a position where I was ordered to shoot. I wouldn't do it - at least not at any fellow human.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Well, to answer your question, yes I do believe that when the state orders us to act contrary to the law of God, then yes we are to obey God rather then men.

Now to address what you were just talking about, in those kind of occupations you get into situations where violence is necessary. In the case of a police officer, if you are in the position of having to arrest a criminal who is unwilling to surrender peacefully, you have to use force. If the criminal is armed and threatening the lives of others, you may have to use deadly force. That is why police officers carry weapons. Very law enforcement officers want to shoot anybody, but there are situations when its the only way to protect innocent life.

It's the same thing on the battlefield really, you kill the enemy because if you don't, the enemy will kill you and/or your friends. It's not that your ordered to shoot. What usually happens is that you come in contact with the enemy, the bullets start flying, and your choice is either to shoot, or to stand by while your friends get cut down, until it's your turn to die. I could never imagine firing my weapon at anybody unless it was to protect myself or my fellow soldiers, but that is the situation you can find yourself in. It happens more often in some occupations than in others, but it's always a possibility.

Also, even if you're not shooting or bombing anybody, you're supporting those who do. Even if you're a medic, your job is to heal people so that they can go back into battle.

Violence is never a positive good, but this is a fallen world, and it is sometimes necessary to restrain evil. I don't like the idea of shooting anybody, but once you're in a combat situation, it's a question of survival.

 

[LLWHA]

God established governemnts and He gives authority to men. When governments/men make laws they are NOT adding to or taking away from Scripture. You have taken a verse/ideal out of context and used it for your own purposes wrongly.

You are wrong.

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not ADD unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the Commandments of the "I AM" your God which I COMMAND you.

12:8 Ye shall not do after all [the things] that we do here this day, every man whatsoever [is] right in his own eyes.

12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.


17:13 And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously (in thinking they are a law unto themselves).

17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, [even] that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; [but] at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
17:7 The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.

These law makers are to be stoned to death.

The "synagogue of Satan" has taken over the government of the U.S.A. and most other countries around the world. We lost the U.S.A. in 1913 when they took over the banking of the U.S.A.

The "synagogue of Satan" with their USURY, lies, mass-murders have enslaved Gods Holy people. Usury is forbidden by God for a reason.

Isaiah:43:8 Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears.
43:9 Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and show us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, [It is] truth.
43:10 Ye [are] My witnesses, saith the "I AM", and My servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I [am] He: before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me.
43:11 I, [even] I, [am] the "I AM"; and beside Me [there is] no Saviour.
43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have showed, when [there was] no strange [god] among you: therefore ye [are] My witnesses, saith the "I AM", that I [am] God.

Isaiah 51:7 Hearken unto Me, ye that know Righteousness, the people in whose heart [is] My Law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.
51:8 For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but My Righteousness shall be for ever, and My salvation from generation to generation.
51:9 Awake, awake, put on strength, O Arm of the "I AM"; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. [Art] thou not it that hath cut Rahab, [and] wounded the dragon?
51:10 [Art] thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over?

3:12 [As for] My people, children [are] their oppressors, and women rule over them. O My people, they which lead thee cause [thee] to err, and lead thee astray, to thy destruction.
3:13 The "I AM" standeth up to plead, and standeth to judge the people.
3:14 The "I AM" will enter into Judgment of the elders of His people, and the princes thereof: for ye have eaten up the vineyard; the share that belongs to the poor [is] in your houses.
3:15 What mean ye [that] ye beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor? saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts.

Elders here would be politicians and princes would be the higher up in the churches.

These two groups have been in on the robbing the poor sheep blind. You have to get a license to drive your car then one more to number your car then they make you get insurance and pay some more taxes just to get your car on the road. Then they tax all the fluides that you need so your car can get down the road. Then even on some roads they make you pay a toll on roads that were built with your taxes.

This is just your car and they do not stop with this theft here as all should know.This theft goes on and on.

42:18 Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see.
42:19 Who [is] blind, but My servant? or deaf, as My messenger [that] I sent? who [is] as blind as [he that thinks he is] perfect, and blind as the "I AM"'s servant (Gods Holy Nation Israel, the ten lost tribes)?
42:20 Seeing many things, but thou takest no notice; opening the ears, but he heareth not.
42:21 The "I AM" is well pleased for His Righteousness' sake; He will magnify The Law, and make [it] honourable.
42:22 But this [is] a people robbed and spoiled; [they are] all of them trapped in [pigeon] holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and no-one delivereth [them]; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore [their share to them].

Robbed and Spoiled trapped in a cubicle paying taxes on top of taxes and most are blind and deaf to it they are so brainwashed by their TV, priest and their politicians .

This is not Gods Way. This is EVIL!!
This is Egypt. Slavery under man made laws and this is forbidden by God!!

42:23 Who among you will give ear to this? [who] will hearken and hear for the time to come?
42:24 Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the "I AM", He against Whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in His Ways, neither were they obedient unto His Law.
42:25 Therefore He hath poured upon him the fury of His anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him (His Holy Nation Israel, the ten lost tribes) on fire round about, yet he understood not; and it burned him, yet he took [it] not to heart (did not learn from it).

Here we are in 2007 most of Gods followers are trapped in [pigeon] holes, robbied blind and its getting worst every day.

They will not Obey Gods Law or follow His Ways and the priests and politicians sell their souls to the devil for a quick buck. Just as Isaiah said would happen!!

4:1 For, behold, the Day cometh, that shall burn like an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts, that it shall leave of them neither root nor branch (nothing).
4:2 But unto you that fear My name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in The Day that I shall do [this], saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts.
4:4 Remember ye and return to The Law of Moses My servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, [with] the Statutes and Judgments.

Some will never get it!! 43:8 Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears.


Those that Fear and Obey God will "tread down the wicked" and live forever with God all others will BURN!!

 

[LLWHA]

Sorry, I meant to do so.
I don't see any reason Christians should not serve in law enforcement except perhaps in the role of executioner. Now, I would hope Christian Police officers would follow John the Baptist's advice to 'harm no one' and Christ's peaceful commandments.

.

Enforcing satan's rules is wrong. <staff edit>

I would assume robbery and homicide cops could live under Gods laws and be good people.

Working for Lucifer and his "synagogue of Satan" and enforcing this fraud will get you into the FIRE.

 

[synger]

Reminder: Please stick to the topics, and their relative strengths and weaknesses. When you begin focusing on people or groups of people, and start calling them names or accusing them of conspiracies or sins... you are moving onto shaky ground. Please keep the flames down. Thanks.

 

[dpartlow]

Soldier - Not sure what that mod post is all about.

I notice some of our correspondence is missing - and I didn't see any flames (yours or mine). I also think we were quite on topic.

Did you see my response to your earlier question?

 

[dpartlow]

Reminder: Please stick to the topics, and their relative strengths and weaknesses. When you begin focusing on people or groups of people, and start calling them names or accusing them of conspiracies or sins... you are moving onto shaky ground. Please keep the flames down. Thanks.

What did you mean by this?

 

[dpartlow]

I've retitled the thread - because I agree with some of the posts and it was not quite what I meant: A message of Christ is Peace - not THE message of Christ is Pacifism.

 

[Albion]

I've retitled the thread - because I agree with some of the posts and it was not quite what I meant: A message of Christ is Peace - not THE message of Christ is Pacifism.

If I may interject, the answer choices are also hard to decipher. For one thing, what does "today's wars" mean? There are wars going on all the time and one is quite different from another.

 

[LLWHA]

If I may interject, the answer choices are also hard to decipher. For one thing, what does "today's wars" mean? There are wars going on all the time and one is quite different from another.

I have not spent a lot of time studying these wars.

I will state that I do not believe most if any are being fought for God.

Satan has his ways and they are evil. Jesus wants you (us) to fight evil.

I do not see this today (fighting evil).
All most No one Obeys God or Christ today or the world would not be in such a mess.


Jesus in Matt: 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a "Sword".


Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] LIKE unto the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the breast with a golden breast-plate.
1:14 His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire;
1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength.
1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the First and the Last:


Malachi 4:2 But unto you that fear My name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in The Day that I shall do [this], saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts.
4:4 Remember ye and return to The Law of Moses My servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, [with] the Statutes and Judgments.
4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah (Eli=High Priest, Jah=God= Christ when He returns) the Prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful Day of the "I AM:
4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

 

[Albion]

I have not spent a lot of time studying these wars.

I will state that I do not believe most if any are being fought for God.

Well, the answer choices we were given do not deal in "most" or "if any." It simply asks a reader to consider them all as if identical...which they are not.

If I were asked about particular wars, I might be able to answer which meet a standard of being a "just war" and which do not.

 

[GeratTzedek]

If Yeshua were pacifist, he would not have taken up a whip and become violent in the Temple.

If Yeshua were pacifist, he would not have instructed his disciples to get swords.

Yeshua was an observant Jew, halakhically perfect. Judaism is not pacifist. Christianity, the daughter of Judaism, is not pacifist. You cannot just edit out the parts of scripture you don't like.

 

[Rion]

It depends. Allowing someone to continue to beat a child/rape a woman is not love. Remember, even Jesus got mad and ran the money changers out of the temple. The World Wars is a good example. WWI was more or less fought over nothing. WWII, however, was to stop a great evil from consuming innocent lives. The first was an unjust war, the second was not. War on Terrorism...? Muddy waters, best I can say.

Also, the wars in the Bible were over people who were pretty messed up. It wasn't that God hated them, but that they wouldn't repent. Burning your children to death for idols seems to be a sure-fire way to wear out God's patience.

 

[GodsChild07]

Sometimes war is necessary.