Is the message of Christ Pacifism?

[Meshavrischika]

Kind of a long read. Honestly didn't make it past #2.

But in answer to your title, no, the message of Christ isn't pacifism, it's love. Love for the Father, love for the children. Sometimes you have to take action to defend the defenseless. It should be rare, and always in consultation with God, but sometimes violence is warranted.

But in a conflict, we should never gloat, never look down upon our enemies, never belittle them or their practices, and pray for them as well as our own. That is the mark of a Christian: knowing when something's wrong, standing up to it, and still loving your enemy even as he fights you.

Wars for gain, whether political or monetary, are unjust. Nationalism and greed are slowly replacing the Gospel as the Truth.

Just what I was thinking... I wish the poll had had a section called "other".

 

[elsbeth]

But in answer to your title, no, the message of Christ isn't pacifism, it's love. Love for the Father, love for the children.

AND God's love for us.

 

[dpartlow]

You say - against every holy war. Do you mean every war, or are you saying secular wars are OK in the view of Christ?

I don't see any such distinction.

 

[dpartlow]

Kind of a long read. Honestly didn't make it past #2.

But in answer to your title, no, the message of Christ isn't pacifism, it's love. Love for the Father, love for the children. Sometimes you have to take action to defend the defenseless. It should be rare, and always in consultation with God, but sometimes violence is warranted.

But in a conflict, we should never gloat, never look down upon our enemies, never belittle them or their practices, and pray for them as well as our own. That is the mark of a Christian: knowing when something's wrong, standing up to it, and still loving your enemy even as he fights you.

Wars for gain, whether political or monetary, are unjust. Nationalism and greed are slowly replacing the Gospel as the Truth.

He was Isaiah's 'Prince of Peace' and peace was clearly part of His message. Pacifist is just an adjective derived from the word peace.

Also - not belittling your enemy is not the same as loving him.

And I would agree that we should love our enemy 'while he is fighting against us'. But we are not called to fight back - we are called to turn the other cheek.

 

[dpartlow]

Pacifism is a term most commonly used by those who promote violence as a way to peace. There is no such thing as a "just war". To wage war for nationalism is to sit in judgment of others. That is against Christianity, regardless of how many churches agree with it.
Chaos is not the path to peace.
To look at the question from a larger perspective, peace on earth is not the ultimate goal, becoming a part of the Kingdom of Heaven is. "Pacifism" is what gets you there. If you love this life you will lose the next. Fear God, for only he has the power to let you enter. Do not fear what may happen to you in this life.
The struggle for good and evil is really a battle being waged on a personal level. "Just war" has no meaning. Aggression is a manifestation of politics. Politics have no place in the Kingdom of Heaven.
I prefer to think of pacifism as the means to unity and equality for all. The true path to peace.
"For God so loved the world, He gave his only begotten son. That whosoever should believeth in him, should have everlasting life."
God created us for love, so to truly "be all you can be", be a part of Gods' love. It's the same yesterday, today and forever.

I completely agree.

However there are a few verses that pacifists, myselfe included - as of recent - need to be mindful of:

You who allow a man to be dragged to his death will lose you strength.

This implies that some sort of intervention in places like Darfur (or arguable Iraq) is called for. But how to do this in a peaceful way (without leading to further violence) is the challenge.

I don't think this will happen any time soon, but I would like to see more humanitarian missions, done peacefully, and In The Name of Jesus Christ.

 

[mont974x4]

Rom 13:1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
Rom 13:2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;
Rom 13:4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.



Remember God does not change and He did order war at times and He has given that authority to governments for the protection of its people.

I hold to the just war theory.

 

[Albion]

I wasn't sure, there are a lot of wars in the bible - but it only seems to be 'OK' when it is a direct order from God through the office of the Prophet. Today's wars have no such commission.

What is the historic view of the Church?

Why do you think it has been that way?

Does it appear that the Bible has been available and read by the churches during the history of Christianity?

 

[Albion]

This implies that some sort of intervention in places like Darfur (or arguable Iraq) is called for. But how to do this in a peaceful way (without leading to further violence) is the challenge.

I don't think this will happen any time soon, but I would like to see more humanitarian missions, done peacefully, and In The Name of Jesus Christ.

Well, of course. If those who are murdering the helpless and innocent, whether it's Hitler or in Darfur, were susceptible to being stopped by peaceful means, we'd all favor that approach. The fact that they aren't is why we have most of the wars we have.

 

[mont974x4]

You'd be surprised to find out just how many humanitarian missions our military is involved in.

 

[dpartlow]

Rom 13:1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
Rom 13:2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;
Rom 13:4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.



Remember God does not change and He did order war at times and He has given that authority to governments for the protection of its people.

I hold to the just war theory.

Well I don't disagree that we are subject to governing authority.

But in a democracy - the people are the governing authority. So it is up to society to reject war.

As for the individual soldier - during a draft, people don't have a choice about being put in a positions where they are forced into war.

But there is no draft presently.

 

[Ave Maria]

There really should be an other option as not all of us believe in the Just War Doctrine. That said, yes, modern wars are immoral. And it is not necessarily because they don't meet the demands of the Just War Doctrine either but for various other reasons. For example, the Iraq war is immoral because Bush lied to get us into war with Iraq and also because Iraq never had weapons of mass destruction to begin with.

 

[mont974x4]

Except that Bush didn't lie and Iraq did have WMD...just ask the Kurds.

 

[Ave Maria]

Except that Bush didn't lie and Iraq did have WMD...just ask the Kurds.

I would like proof of both before I can accept either.

Oh and I did not say that Iraq never had weapons of mass destruction. I was saying that they did not have weapons of mass destruction at the time of the invasion.

 

[mont974x4]

you said "Iraq never had weapons of mass destruction to begin with."

This is wrong, they most certainly did have them and they used them.

As to the WMD/war issue, the burden of proof was on Saddam, not the US as per international law/UN resolutions. He failed to do so and the legal thing to do was hold him accountable.

 

[dpartlow]

I just read one of the clearest verses regarding the Christian's mission NOT being carnal war (but spiritual war): 2 Corinthians 10

Here are two reflections on this passage:

We Do Not War (2nd Corinthians 10)​

Though we walk in the natural world of flesh
We do not make physical war, for we are not meant to thresh.
We are His reapers and our implements are not carnal.
But He shall sort the good seed from the chaff and toxic darnel
The weapons of our warfare are the truth and the Spirit.
They are powerful and will work goodness in all who hear it.
Now trade the grave for the crèche.

The stronghold of the enemy who sits behind his comfortable walls
In the hearts of men, shall be razed by truth as his battlement falls.
Pride, unbelief, the sprit of weakness and fear
Shall all retreat from our heart when in faith we draw near
To the message of freedom, peace, and faith He gave.
And break the bond of he who wants to make man his slave.
Now unlock the gate of your cozy little stalls

For all (including war) may be permissible, forgivable, but not all edifies.
So beware of the warden – the one who holy truth denies.
Let us not succumb to any of his hateful, deceptive lies
The sword was not given for blood, He did never authorize
The building of martial strongholds, a proud and fearful exercise,
A comfortable, carnal, and limiting exercise.
Now go forth in truth and claim your Holy Spirit prize.


Crushing Enemies, or Embracing Them?

Many enemies died at their hands
And Judah bore the Standard.

They took their lands at His commands
Yet unto idols prayed and pandered.

Exiled to foreign sands these broken bands
Through wilderness marched and meandered.

Now His new covenant stands and His tribe expands
But He has set for us a higher standard.

But more foreign lands, our new king demands
And His law of peace is slandered.

Where our enemy now stands on broken lands…
Let us march out bearing Christ’s peaceful loving standard.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

The problem with pacifism is that it has a wrongheaded view of what peace is. It sees peace as a human accomplishment, rather than a gift from God.

 

[Giver]

Jesus told me we were not to hurt anyone for any reason. Scripture says that also.

(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

 

[Epiphoskei]

Jesus told me we were not to hurt anyone for any reason. Scripture says that also.

(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

Which may apply to individuals, but what do we do with states? There is no 67th book of foreign policy in the scriptures. And you have to admit that states have rights and responsibilities that individual persons do not have. If the states set up by God in the Old Testament were permitted and at times commanded to wage war, we cannot assert that states are held by God to pacifism.

 

[Giver]

Which may apply to individuals, but what do we do with states? There is no 67th book of foreign policy in the scriptures. And you have to admit that states have rights and responsibilities that individual persons do not have. If the states set up by God in the Old Testament were permitted and at times commanded to wage war, we cannot assert that states are held by God to pacifism.

A Christian isn’t part of the world. The world needs an army, and police force to maintain the law. A Christian doesn’t need law. A Christian does what God commands first.

(John 17:14) “I passed your word on to them, and the world hated them, because they belong to the world no more than I belong to the world.”

(Acts 4:19-20) “You must judge whether in God’s eyes it is right to listen to you and not to God. We cannot promise to stop proclaiming what we have seen and heard.”

 

[Epiphoskei]

Which adresses if the christian can participate in war. Not if the state can conduct war justly.