Is the Difference between Liberals and Fundamentalists a class issue?

[BarbB]

I am not sure it is education so much as the type of education. If I went to the local Assembly of God Bible College, I am sure my theology would be differnt than the theology I learned in an ELCA seminary.

I went to a VERY liberal university. I was very liberal up to summer, 2001.

 

[BarbB]

Well, I'm sure there's still time to pursue a graduate degree or perhaps a second bachelor's degree.

Here -- have some liberal cooties...

(JUST KIDDING!!!)

I can't remember what I had for breakfast let alone study for another degree!

Can I have some liberal cooties also? (I always giggle at the word cootie!)

 

[NothingButTheBlood]

I went two years at Hiram College and three years at West Liberty State College. I have a Bachelor's in Criminal Justice. I imagine that means I was doomed to be conservative? It's amazing, first it was I'm uneducated then it was I was educated improperly. You all should really make up your minds.

 

[Fantine]

The very nature of fundamentalism is to be intolerant of beliefs different to their own, I associate this kind of extreme intolerance with lack of education.

I think that there are different ways of looking at education.

People who are liberal tend to equate the word "education" with "broad-based humanistic education." I know I always did. And, as a liberal arts major, I learned how to ask questions and interpret the facts and form my own opinions and ideas.

People whose studies involved Math and Science and Engineering must have found college very different. Labs! Memorizing formulas! Black and White tests with only one right answer for every question! (It gives me a headache just thinking about it


Students of Theology may have received a broad-based liberal arts education or an all black or white Q & A fact based education (depending on the denomination.)

Tempermentally and by training, I am a broad-based humanistic education person. Right-brained, creative, inquiring, open-minded.

But I know many people with as much or more education than I who have a very fundamentalist approach to life.

Part of it's nature--their basic personalities and interests. Part of it's nurture--they may be scientists or mathematicians or military members.

Those are generalizations, of course, and exceptions abound. But I do think that the type of education received has much to do with whether we are fundamentalist or theological liberals.

 

[UberLutheran]

I went two years at Hiram College and three years at West Liberty State College. I have a Bachelor's in Criminal Justice. I imagine that means I was doomed to be conservative? It's amazing, first it was I'm uneducated then it was I was educated improperly. You all should really make up your minds.

...and ended up a liberal Lutheran (with some strongly orthodox attributes)!

As my cousin has said, "Who'dda thunk?"

(Of course, as far as my family is concerned that means I'm going to Hell, so I'm just going to wait and see -- and smile to myself...)

 

[Rev. Smith]

The OP proposed that in the USA religious affiliation may be a function of class. The lines got blurred because we began to speak of both conservatism and fundimentalism as if they were the same thing. The connections are superficial, of the if A not B sort. It is true that most fundimentalists are conservative, but not true that most conservatives are fundimentalist.

As Uber pointed out in his informal survery of local churches, money and class seem to have litle to do with the political leanings of the congregation. The preacher and the community have more to do with that, people gravitate to a church that they believe teaches the truth.

My personal observation is that the choice to be a fundimentalist has less to do with either class or money then turn of mind.

Geroge Carlin did a riff on Bill Mahr's HBO show last week about the right and left. He charachterises the right as more concerned with things, property rights, taxes, free markets and econiomic rights are priorities to them. The left he characterises as more concerned with individuals, people and their needs are more important to them. The clash is probably insoluable, since each implies a negation of the other. In order to have a "pure" free market capitolist society that protects the right to property you must accept that the losers in the contest will suffer, and perhaps die, in order to preseve the greator good. In order to have a truly social society where all people's needs are met you must be willing to punish sucess, to force those who through cleverness, hard work and ambition have aquired wealth to surrender much of that property to serve the needs of those who did not "earn" enough to care for themselves.

If you are predisposed to be on the right, then a conservative church will tell you its allright, that all of Jesus' teaching on the virtues of caring for the poor, selling all you own to follow him and that the sheep who see paradise are those who give to the needy are just "allegory" and not to be taken as literal. They will point to the Old Testament passages on the virtues of hard work and wealth,.

If you are predisposed to be a liberal your liberal church will emphasise all of those things, but will protect you from trhe moral implications of Jesus' teachings. You'll want to embrace tolerance and kindenss, to condemn no one and nothing. His teachings on adultery, honesty, respect for the law and society will be drowned in sermons that condemn the evil rich.

In another thread I have been discussing the idea of forming an echumenical order based solely on trying to live in accord with the treachings of Jesus, and those teachoings alone. Canon was the work of man, and was a neccissary crutch to build the church. IO am convinced that the counterbalance to fundimantalism is Jesusism, Jesus was the living God, everything else is commentary.

Taking only the teachings of Jesus as our guide will convict both sides of the debate - the conservative will have to step outside of the protective wall of church sanctioned greed, where he will meet the equally naked liberal who has shed the comfort of tolerance for everything. We will have to learn from each other. Mostly we will have to learn from Jesus.

 

[ottaia]

I went two years at Hiram College and three years at West Liberty State College. I have a Bachelor's in Criminal Justice. I imagine that means I was doomed to be conservative? It's amazing, first it was I'm uneducated then it was I was educated improperly. You all should really make up your minds.

Of course you are assuming it is all about you.

 

[redheadmt]

I can only go by personal experience, but the fundies that I know are uneducated, not necessarily poor, but lacking "worldliness." I think that a lack of worldly knowledge, experience, personal exposure (not through the nightly news) to a wide variety of people all tend to make a person more liberal.

Most of the liberals that I know are well educated, and if they don't have a higher education, they seem to have endured hardships at some point in their lives which has made them more compassionate, free-thinking, tolerant, open-minded...all of the traits that IMO are not fundie characteristics.

Again, this is only what I believe to be true; conclusions that I have come to in my thirty-six years on earth.

 

[Kaonashi]

A well rounded liberal arts education is more than likely to make you liberal then conservative.
It also depends on the degree you spend 4 years getting as well.
A degree in Biology or any of the sciences is more likely to make you more liberal as well.

 

[Athene]

A well rounded liberal arts education is more than likely to make you liberal then conservative.
It also depends on the degree you spend 4 years getting as well.
A degree in Biology or any of the sciences is more likely to make you more liberal as well.

My view was that recieving an education makes you more aware of the world, going away to universty you meet different people with different views and through this you become more tolerant and more open minded.

Before I went to college I didn't know any muslim people, so college was the first time I actually talked to someone of that faith. At first I was quite . . . . .argumentative about them, "why are you a muslim, your religion is lies, you're going to hell". . . (sound familiar to anyone) But after much discussion I learned to respect them and their beliefs and now I'm pleased and to say that one of my closest friends is muslim. It was a rocky road for me but I'm pleased I walked it.

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

I can only go by personal experience, but the fundies that I know are uneducated, not necessarily poor, but lacking "worldliness." I think that a lack of worldly knowledge, experience, personal exposure (not through the nightly news) to a wide variety of people all tend to make a person more liberal.

Most of the liberals that I know are well educated, and if they don't have a higher education, they seem to have endured hardships at some point in their lives which has made them more compassionate, free-thinking, tolerant, open-minded...all of the traits that IMO are not fundie characteristics.

Again, this is only what I believe to be true; conclusions that I have come to in my thirty-six years on earth.

I have to concur with this wholeheartedly.
But take time and find out for yourself if you want.
Spend any time reading through the threads in GA and especially the Creation & Evolution forum and watch how folks that believe in literal "six-day" Creationism insist that the universe was created only a few thousand years ago argue endlessly with those that accept the evidence that billions of years have existed as proven by modern science. You will see that the difference in the educational level of these groups is glaring and undeniable.

 

[billwald]

Seems to me that, in general, people who want this world to be a better place for their great grandkids would be more successful in this world than the people who expect to "get raptured" and the world then be trashed by God in the next few weeks or years.

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

Seems to me that, in general, people who want this world to be a better place for their great grandkids would be more successful in this world than the people who expect to "get raptured" and the world then be trashed by God in the next few weeks or years.

Good point billwald. Very true. What's especially disconcerting about the 'rapture mentality' to me is when I hear it being parroted out of the mouths of young children.
:shutters just to think about it:

 

[k9catts]

Good point billwald. Very true. What's especially disconcerting about the 'rapture mentality' to me is when I hear it being parroted out of the mouths of young children.
:shutters just to think about it:

I don't understand. Would they rather have a rapture or watch their children grow up? What will they do when the rapture does not occur on schedule? In about every 10 years the world is ready for rapture. Hasn't happened yet.

Makes for good book sales, but God placed on this earth to live and not stand around.

 

[Joykins]

I think it might have more to do with personality type than education, although educational paths taken can certainly be an indicator of personality type. I think perhaps the *way* people approach religion (in general) is definitely influenced by personality type and education.

On the other hand--I am a literature major and I often approach the Bible as a work of literature. I don't think this is the way fundamentalists interpret the Bible in general--many seem to regard it more in the nature of a divine instructional manual.

I have gone to a 3 conservative evangelical (I don't know if that's the same thing as fundamentalist?) churches long-term in my life. It is my impression that these churches have many members with careers in engineering or the military (of course, this could also be a function of location)--and certainly many do not fit any stereotype...

 

[flautist]

I have to concur with flanders on this one... in my town, most of the rich people are fundamentalist, conservative, Pat Robertson-like Christians, and the poor people are kind of split between liberal and conservative, but mostly liberal. In the small farm communities surrounding me, most tend to be fundamentalist, regardless of class.

 

[NothingButTheBlood]

The OP proposed that in the USA religious affiliation may be a function of class. The lines got blurred because we began to speak of both conservatism and fundimentalism as if they were the same thing. The connections are superficial, of the if A not B sort. It is true that most fundimentalists are conservative, but not true that most conservatives are fundimentalist.

As Uber pointed out in his informal survery of local churches, money and class seem to have litle to do with the political leanings of the congregation. The preacher and the community have more to do with that, people gravitate to a church that they believe teaches the truth.

My personal observation is that the choice to be a fundimentalist has less to do with either class or money then turn of mind.

Geroge Carlin did a riff on Bill Mahr's HBO show last week about the right and left. He charachterises the right as more concerned with things, property rights, taxes, free markets and econiomic rights are priorities to them. The left he characterises as more concerned with individuals, people and their needs are more important to them. The clash is probably insoluable, since each implies a negation of the other. In order to have a "pure" free market capitolist society that protects the right to property you must accept that the losers in the contest will suffer, and perhaps die, in order to preseve the greator good. In order to have a truly social society where all people's needs are met you must be willing to punish sucess, to force those who through cleverness, hard work and ambition have aquired wealth to surrender much of that property to serve the needs of those who did not "earn" enough to care for themselves.

If you are predisposed to be on the right, then a conservative church will tell you its allright, that all of Jesus' teaching on the virtues of caring for the poor, selling all you own to follow him and that the sheep who see paradise are those who give to the needy are just "allegory" and not to be taken as literal. They will point to the Old Testament passages on the virtues of hard work and wealth,.

If you are predisposed to be a liberal your liberal church will emphasise all of those things, but will protect you from trhe moral implications of Jesus' teachings. You'll want to embrace tolerance and kindenss, to condemn no one and nothing. His teachings on adultery, honesty, respect for the law and society will be drowned in sermons that condemn the evil rich.

In another thread I have been discussing the idea of forming an echumenical order based solely on trying to live in accord with the treachings of Jesus, and those teachoings alone. Canon was the work of man, and was a neccissary crutch to build the church. IO am convinced that the counterbalance to fundimantalism is Jesusism, Jesus was the living God, everything else is commentary.

Taking only the teachings of Jesus as our guide will convict both sides of the debate - the conservative will have to step outside of the protective wall of church sanctioned greed, where he will meet the equally naked liberal who has shed the comfort of tolerance for everything. We will have to learn from each other. Mostly we will have to learn from Jesus.

OHHHH, now I'm greedy, rich and don't do anything for the poor. You all are mindreaders!!!

 

[NothingButTheBlood]

Of course you are assuming it is all about you.

Who else have you been talking too?

 

[NothingButTheBlood]

I can only go by personal experience, but the fundies that I know are uneducated, not necessarily poor, but lacking "worldliness." I think that a lack of worldly knowledge, experience, personal exposure (not through the nightly news) to a wide variety of people all tend to make a person more liberal.

Most of the liberals that I know are well educated, and if they don't have a higher education, they seem to have endured hardships at some point in their lives which has made them more compassionate, free-thinking, tolerant, open-minded...all of the traits that IMO are not fundie characteristics.

Again, this is only what I believe to be true; conclusions that I have come to in my thirty-six years on earth.

Again I don't believe what you believe so I must somehow be stupid. You can call it uneducated or unworldly but the fact is they all mean stupid. I also love that you much be more compassionate, tolerant and open-minded. Unless you are dealing with fundies then you exhibit those traits your self. I'm glad I don't approach everyone I meet with the attitude you appoach fundies. It's no wonder my parents don't discuss religion with me. They must think this way about me too. That is the one thing I can thank you all for. Showing me how much my parents must distain what I am.

 

[Athene]

NothingButTheBlood, why don't you post a constructive rebuttle instead of having hissy fits.

Do you assume that everything that is said on the internet is about you?