Is the Devil Stronger than God?

[Lily of Valleys]

No. That would be to confuse the order of salvation (sometimes called Ordo Salutis).

God elects. God calls and regenerates. The elect then freely put their faith in Jesus. God sanctifies (as the elect continually walk with him). God glorifies.

His choice to save comes before our faith and actually brings about our faith. It does not depend on our faith.

How does this theory resolve the conflict between:

(A) How God decides who to be saved does not depend on whether they embrace or reject Jesus
(B) We can freely choose between embracing or rejecting Jesus
(C) Only those who choose to embrace Jesus will be saved

 

[Tree of Life]

How does this theory resolve the conflict between:

(A) How God decides who to be saved does not depend on whether they embrace or reject Jesus
(B) We can freely choose between embracing or rejecting Jesus
(C) Only those who choose to embrace Jesus will be saved

1. God chose who he would saved before he created the world.
2. In history, God gives the gift of faith and liberates the will of his elect by calling them with the gospel.
3. The elect then freely respond to God with the faith he gave them.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So we agree that since the devil is not stronger that God, that those who the Lord saves are unable to be lost?

The will of man is stronger than the devil -
so
.... well, as written in Scripture, he who does not endure to the end,
by his own willing choice in rebellion,
apart from God and opposed to Jesus' crucifixion and by trampling the BLOOD,
he dies apart from God
by his own willing choice/ rebellion/ wickedness.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If the devil was stronger than God, ... then we'd all be dead ...

If people understood this, and turned to God for God's help,
then
they wouldn't be dead..... but most on earth never turn to God, rather they rebel against Him.... so they go with the devil by their own willing choices... according to God's Word.

 

[Lily of Valleys]

1. God chose who he would saved before he created the world.
2. In history, God gives the gift of faith and liberates the will of his elect by calling them with the gospel.
3. The elect then freely respond to God with the faith he gave them.

If God has given the elect faith, then how would they be able to choose to reject Jesus?

On the other hand, since the non-elect have never been given faith, then how would they be able to choose to embrace Jesus?

That would mean God's will effectively decides who will embrace or reject Jesus, and the people do not have the actual freedom to choose it freely.

 

[BobRyan]

Wouldn't you admit that God permitted Satan to tempt Adam and Eve and permitted them to fall?

And permitted "his own" to "receive Him not"

John 1:11 "He cam to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

And permitted this --
Matthew 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

And permitted this -
Romans 11
” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

[BobRyan]

If God has given the elect faith, then how would they be able to choose to reject Jesus? .

Faith is not some sort of "mind lock that deletes free will"
If it were then no Christian would ever sin.

But the truth is that even Christians STILL have sinful natures - and in their sinful nature they - make stupid choices now and then. And worse ... as Romans 11 and Matthew 18 point out.

 

[BobRyan]

All of us are able to fail. God allows this to happen. But if God intends to save a person, is the devil able to successfully tempt him such that he falls away from salvation?

The devil is always "able to tempt".

God is always "able" to provide "free will choice" to mankind.

"free will" will always be "able" to choose one way ... or the other.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If God has given the elect faith, then how would they be able to choose to reject Jesus?

On the other hand, since the non-elect have never been given faith, then how would they be able to choose to embrace Jesus?

That would mean God's will effectively decides who will embrace or reject Jesus, and the people do not have the actual freedom to choose it freely.

That's part of the great deception- as if people lose their freedom to choose when they believe and are immersed in Jesus. They never lose that freedom to choose if they come to Jesus - and it is an amazing paradox why anyone would choose to give it up, but many do.

The flesh, the devil, the world, all say otherwise. Those who trust the flesh, the devil or the world cannot be helped, not even by God, as long as they trust anyone or anything instead of Jesus.

 

[Tree of Life]

The will of man is stronger than the devil -
so
.... well, as written in Scripture, he who does not endure to the end,
by his own willing choice in rebellion,
apart from God and opposed to Jesus' crucifixion and by trampling the BLOOD,
he dies apart from God
by his own willing choice/ rebellion/ wickedness.

Yet the devil is involved in this. All those who are lost are under his power, as Ephesians says. His spirit is at work in the sons of disobedience. So I suppose in your view, the devil is stronger after all.

 

[Tree of Life]

If God has given the elect faith, then how would they be able to choose to reject Jesus?

The elect do not choose to reject Jesus.

On the other hand, since the non-elect have never been given faith, then how would they be able to choose to embrace Jesus?

The non-elect do not choose to embrace Jesus.

That would mean God's will effectively decides who will embrace or reject Jesus,

Bingo.

and the people do not have the actual freedom to choose it freely.

Wrong. All who embrace Jesus do it freely. They do it because they want to do it. All people who reject Jesus do it freely. They reject him because they want to reject him.

 

[Zoii]

I dont believe in the devil.

 

[Tree of Life]

The devil is always "able to tempt".

God is always "able" to provide "free will choice" to mankind.

"free will" will always be "able" to choose one way ... or the other.

God calls. The devil tempts. Man chooses. God wishes all were saved but the devil gets some. I suppose the devil is stronger than God for these folks?

 

[dreadnought]

I dont believe in the devil.

Jesus did.

 

[Lily of Valleys]

The elect do not choose to reject Jesus.

The non-elect do not choose to embrace Jesus.

Bingo.

Wrong. All who embrace Jesus do it freely. They do it because they want to do it. All people who reject Jesus do it freely. They reject him because they want to reject him.

It doesn't seem like you understand what I mean. You need faith to embrace Jesus, right? And if you have never been given faith, how can you choose to embrace Him? Then how can you say you have choice? Then the only option left is to reject.

Same with those who are given faith, how can you choose not to have faith in Jesus if you are given it?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yet the devil is involved in this. All those who are lost are under his power, as Ephesians says. His spirit is at work in the sons of disobedience. So I suppose in your view, the devil is stronger after all.

You got mixed up. Re-read the post you quoted.

 

[Tree of Life]

It doesn't seem like you understand what I mean. You need faith to embrace Jesus, right? And if you have never been given faith, how can you choose to embrace Him? Then how can you say you have choice? Then the only option left is to reject.

Unregenerate people cannot choose Jesus. They need God to regenerate them. But their rebellion against Jesus is still very much their choice. They rebel because they want to. How is that not a free decision?

Same with those who are given faith, how can you choose not to have faith in Jesus if you are given it?

Those who are regenerated by God are "slaves of righteousness". They may still struggle with sin, but deep down they cannot help but believe in Jesus.

 

[Lily of Valleys]

Unregenerate people cannot choose Jesus. They need God to regenerate them. But their rebellion against Jesus is still very much their choice. They rebel because they want to. How is that not a free decision?

Those who are regenerated by God are "slaves of righteousness". They may still struggle with sin, but deep down they cannot help but believe in Jesus.

So according to your theory, people God has chosen to be regenerated will believe and be saved, and those God has chosen not to be regenerated will not believe and will be condemned. Therefore, God has not really given people the choice to choose whether they can be saved or not, is that correct?

 

[Zoii]

Jesus did.

I wonder though if when Jesus was tempted by the devil was he merely expressing the mind battles and temptations of humans, rather than some sort of actual entity. Its satan as an entity I dont accept.

 

[Tree of Life]

So according to your theory, people God has chosen to be regenerated will believe and be saved, and those God has chosen not to be regenerated will not believe and will be condemned.

Correct. And it should be noted that this is not simply my private theory or interpretation. This is the interpretation of the Reformed Tradition.

Therefore, God has not really given people the choice to choose whether they can be saved or not, is that correct?

I would never put it like that.

In case you're not familiar with philosophy, we're operating from two different notions of freedom. You seem to be promoting libertarian freedom whereas my understanding would be compatibalist freedom. We don't need to get into that, but it's useful background info.

I would say that people make free decisions in the sense that they are not coerced or restrained. A sinner sins freely. No one twists their arm into sinning.

Think about it like this. A person in prison is not free. They desire to go home and be with their family but they can't. They are restrained. Likewise, a person with a gun to their head being forced to perform an action against their will is not free. They are acting, but their decision is coerced.

When sinners sin, no one has a gun to their head. Likewise they are unrestrained (to an extent). God has given them to ability to do as they please. So they freely reject him.

But when God regenerates a person he gives them new desires. Suddenly they desire to obey God. They then become free to leave their life of sin and to obey God in a non-coerced and unrestrained way.

This is why Paul says in Romans 6 that once we were slaves to sin, but now we have become obedient to God from the heart and slaves to righteousness.