Is the Cross an Idol???

[Logicalthinker]

crosses are bowed to in the catholic faith. read exodus.

 

[Quijote]

crosses are bowed to in the catholic faith. read exodus.

lol, not if you mean that Catholics are bowing to the cross itself and not to who was in the cross.

cheers

 

[PassthePeace1]

I didn't say that GOD did
exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

That goes for the cross and saints. Nothing not anything it says. not anything from heaven (Statues of Saints and Jesus). Not anything from earth, notice the word any thing(Crosses, Statues of Saints), Not anything from the sea, Well I don't know of anything from the sea that is worshiped right off hand. Does not mean it doesn't happen. It clearly says Any Any Anything is not to be bowed to. Maybe cathloics don't want to believe their Idolaters. But the evidence is overwhelming. I went to my aunt's funeral. She was catholic and they all prayed to everyone except God or Jesus. I tell people it was the buns or steel work out. up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down. But not once during the service did anyone go down on their knees to pray to God. I was disgusted. Made me sick.

Well, just want does God say about this subject....First Catholics don't worship statues, or anything created. The Church teaches that ONLY God is to be worshipped; to worship anything else is the sin of idolatry!!

You quoted Ex 20: 4-5...God does prohibt the making of images for the purpose of WORSHIPPING them. Using a crucifix, or cross to remind you of an act of Love done for you, is not worshipping an graven image...Worship would be if we believe that the object was of higher esteem than the One it represents. Lets define worship:

Main Entry: [2]worship
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -shiped or -shipped; -ship·ing or -ship·ping
Date: 13th century
transitive senses
1 : to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power

No, one believes that the crucifix is a divine being or a supernatural power; if that is what you believe we are doing...it is only your perception; and that doesn't make it so..

Secondly, we read those verses...then later on in the same book, same author...God tells Moses to use images...So therefore, GOD DOES NOT PROHIBIT IMAGEMAKING ALTOGETHER. Ex. 25:18-19 God commands Moses to make statues of angels. In Numbers 21:8 God tells Moses to make bronze serppent, which the Israelites had to look upon in order to be healed. Jews also used carved images in the Temple, which included cherubim, oxen, lions, trees, and flowers...1Kings 6 and 7...

So therefore, either God is contradicting himself OR the verses in EX. 20:4-5, have a deeper meaning, that just making an object!

Do you have a nativity scene in your home at Christmas? Do you worship it? Of course not, it reminds you of the season we are in, and God coming in the flesh. Do you have a picture of a dead relative in your house? Do you worship it? Of course not, it reminds you of the love one who is gone, and helps you recall memories and things that person might have taught you; and the love ya'll shared for each other.

Finally, I think another thing to point out...is just a few verses down from the ones you posted is ...You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor....Something to think about! Before you build your own golden calf of your perceptions, of what you presume others believe...make sure it is really what they do believe...others wise you may yourself, be violating one of the Commandents..That's what God says!

Peace be with you..Pam..

 

[Logicalthinker]

lol, not if you mean that Catholics are bowing to the cross itself and not to who was in the cross.

cheers

I have physically seen catholics bow infront of the cross. It does not matter what they think their praying to the fact is they physically go in and bow to the cross and the statues of the man made saints. Once again here is exodus.
exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Do not BOW to them. Plain as the nose on my face.

 

[Quijote]

I have physically seen catholics bow infront of the cross. It does not matter what they think their praying to the fact is they physically go in and bow to the cross and the statues of the man made saints. Once again here is exodus.
exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Do not BOW to them. Plain as the nose on my face.

lol, I think we established your knowledge of Catholicism and its practices when you missed any references/prayers to God at your Aunt's funeral Mass

Also, I hope you never have to bend down and pick something up because then you will be bowing down to something in front of you...

cheers

 

[Logicalthinker]

To quote Jim Blackburn: Jesus said, “in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words” (Mt 6:7). Praying isn’t just about quantity – quality matters, too. When repetition is used, meditation is important so that our prayers do not become meaningless

Just rammbling. When God walked with Adam in the garden do you think Adam repeated himself to God everyday during their walk or did they talk like father and son. God doesn't want a broken record he wants you to walk with him. Tell him how things are going to ask for help with yourself and others. To be his son is what he wants. He enjoys his creations along with dissapointment. Not saying hail mary's for an hour or hear the same stuff everyday over and over. Rammblers.

 

[Logicalthinker]

lol, I think we established your knowledge of Catholicism and its practices when you missed any references/prayers to God at your Aunt's funeral Mass

Also, I hope you never have to bend down and pick something up because then you will be bowing down to something in front of you...

cheers

they bow, make the symbol of the cross while praying plus they do it to the man made saints.
That is a lot different then dropping somthing and picking it up in front of a cross. They bow down consciously. It is a choice they make.

 

[Logicalthinker]

lol, not if you mean that Catholics are bowing to the cross itself and not to who was in the cross.

cheers

No one is in the cross. Sorry to diappoint you. Jesus got off that thing a long time ago.

 

[Logicalthinker]

Well, just want does God say about this subject....First Catholics don't worship statues, or anything created. The Church teaches that ONLY God is to be worshipped; to worship anything else is the sin of idolatry!!

Man created the saints of the day and they are nothing more than men. I have heard people hold up their favorite saint neclace and pray to the stupid thing.

You quoted Ex 20: 4-5...God does prohibt the making of images for the purpose of WORSHIPPING them. Using a crucifix, or cross to remind you of an act of Love done for you, is not worshipping an graven image...Worship would be if we believe that the object was of higher esteem than the One it represents. Lets define worship:

Main Entry: [2]worship
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -shiped or -shipped; -ship·ing or -ship·ping
Date: 13th century
transitive senses
1 : to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power

No, one believes that the crucifix is a divine being or a supernatural power; if that is what you believe we are doing...it is only your perception; and that doesn't make it so.. !!

Not only my perception. Why did the church split. Lots of people will not bow in front of a statue no matter how good you make it sound.

Secondly, we read those verses...then later on in the same book, same author...God tells Moses to use images...So therefore, GOD DOES NOT PROHIBIT IMAGEMAKING ALTOGETHER. Ex. 25:18-19 God commands Moses to make statues of angels. In Numbers 21:8 God tells Moses to make bronze serppent, which the Israelites had to look upon in order to be healed. Jews also used carved images in the Temple, which included cherubim, oxen, lions, trees, and flowers...1Kings 6 and 7...!!

You missed the key point I pointed out earlier in the thread. When God COMMANDS us to build something for him he is quit specific on how it is to built, what it is to be built out of and what it's purpose is. Not maybe. Now would you please show me in the Bible where it tells us to build a cross, what it's purpose is and what will it be made of. How many cubits tall is it suppost to be?

So therefore, either God is contradicting himself OR the verses in EX. 20:4-5, have a deeper meaning, that just making an object!

He did not contradict himself. If he did not tell us to build it we don't build it. Right. But all of those he Commanded us to build and gave demensions.

Do you have a nativity scene in your home at Christmas? Do you worship it? Of course not, it reminds you of the season we are in, and God coming in the flesh. Do you have a picture of a dead relative in your house? Do you worship it? Of course not, it reminds you of the love one who is gone, and helps you recall memories and things that person might have taught you; and the love ya'll shared for each other.

If my loved one got killed by a knife. I sure in hell would not have that hanging on my wall. Come on! Get Real.

Finally, I think another thing to point out...is just a few verses down from the ones you posted is ...You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor....Something to think about! Before you build your own golden calf of your perceptions, of what you presume others believe...make sure it is really what they do believe...others wise you may yourself, be violating one of the Commandents..That's what God says! !

I am not a false witness. I speak the truth and the truth hurts. Anyone defending their right to wear vain silly trinkets of our Lord Saviors Killing Device. Is the False witness. A Wolf in sheeps clothing.

 

[Quijote]

they bow, make the symbol of the cross while praying plus they do it to the man made saints.
That is a lot different then dropping somthing and picking it up in front of a cross. They bow down consciously. It is a choice they make.

lol, when we make the sign of the cross we remember the trinity. One says/thinks "in the name of the Father (hand in your forehead), the Son (hand in your tummy), and the Holy (left shoulder) Spirit (right shoulder). It does have a connection to the cross, but it is the simplest prayer to the Trinity.

I don't know how to explain it any better. A Catholic does not bow down to the cross/crucifix because the it represents an idol. We bow to the cross/crucifix as a sign of respect/reverence of the sacrifice Christ made. You're right when you say that it is a choice we make.

cheers

 

[Quijote]

Just rammbling. When God walked with Adam in the garden do you think Adam repeated himself to God everyday during their walk or did they talk like father and son. God doesn't want a broken record he wants you to walk with him. Tell him how things are going to ask for help with yourself and others. To be his son is what he wants. He enjoys his creations along with dissapointment. Not saying hail mary's for an hour or hear the same stuff everyday over and over. Rammblers.

lol

You're correct when you say that God does not want us to "ramble".

A rosary is a prayer aid which helps us meditate on key moments of Jesus' life. No rambling in it

cheers

 

[Quijote]

lol, not if you mean that Catholics are bowing to the cross itself and not to who was in the cross.

cheers

No one is in the cross. Sorry to diappoint you. Jesus got off that thing a long time ago.

You're right!!! That is why I said "...and not to who was in the cross."

 

[butterflyinchrist]

Ok I personally don't know anyone who worships the cross itself.

Visible symbols and metaphors are the only way we in the physical world can understand spiritual things.

The cross, for me anyway, is a kind of visual aid. It reminds me of the incredible price he paid for me and wearing a cross around my neck reminds me in my busy daily life what I should really be focussing on. It helps me keep in mind what's truly important and also identifies me as seperate from the non-believers around me. It ireminds me to be a light.

 

[PassthePeace1]

Ok I personally don't know anyone who worships the cross itself.

Visible symbols and metaphors are the only way we in the physical world can understand spiritual things.

The cross, for me anyway, is a kind of visual aid. It reminds me of the incredible price he paid for me and wearing a cross around my neck reminds me in my busy daily life what I should really be focussing on. It helps me keep in mind what's truly important and also identifies me as seperate from the non-believers around me. It ireminds me to be a light.

Beautifully put...Butterfly..

 

[PassthePeace1]

I am not a false witness. I speak the truth and the truth hurts. Anyone defending their right to wear vain silly trinkets of our Lord Saviors Killing Device. Is the False witness. A Wolf in sheeps clothing.

Well then we are just going to have to agree to disagree! Pam

 

[Logicalthinker]

Well then we are just going to have to agree to disagree! Pam

Truly if I was a false witness my words would try to lead you away. But what I'm saying will not affect your salvation. But If the cross is an idol than you words will lead me to a gamble with my salvation. Are you willing to risk your salvation on a trinket. One is not to covet an item that to is Idolatry.

colossians 3:5Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

 

[Logicalthinker]

lol

You're correct when you say that God does not want us to "ramble".

A rosary is a prayer aid which helps us meditate on key moments of Jesus' life. No rambling in it

cheers

You do repeat yourself eveytime you do it. That is rambling.

 

[Logicalthinker]

Ok I personally don't know anyone who worships the cross itself.

Visible symbols and metaphors are the only way we in the physical world can understand spiritual things.

The cross, for me anyway, is a kind of visual aid. It reminds me of the incredible price he paid for me and wearing a cross around my neck reminds me in my busy daily life what I should really be focussing on. It helps me keep in mind what's truly important and also identifies me as seperate from the non-believers around me. It ireminds me to be a light.

But what if he was killed with a AK-47. Would you wear that in his honor. We are to wear our faith like Armour. Not a trinket. If you had a loved one killed by being stabbed to death, would you hang a knife on the wall to remember your loved one?

 

[Logicalthinker]

You're right!!! That is why I said "...and not to who was in the cross."

2 corinthians 6:16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

2 corinthians 6:17Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

Separate yourself from what is unclean,
The catholic faith has aloud Idols in their church in the form of saints and the cross. Plus they call their ministers father and the pope Holy Father. Which is a sin
matthew 23:9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.


Wash you hands clean and find the truth. Now I know the truth can hurt but it is the truth, let go of what you have been taught. One must read the Bible instead of being told whats in it. and I would love for you to run from the church and find the complete truth. Jesus said the truth will set you free. It has me. Search your heart. You might think me condeming people but the truth is I care. I want all of us to know the truth. Satan will fool the whole world it says in the bible. But with everyone looking for him, one must wonder how he will fool us. Well about 1800 yrs ago the catholic church was created. It has a bad foundation. Took the symbol of Tummaz and the killing device of our savior and made it a holy symbol. Than the man made saints and praying to Mary the mother of Jesus, calling the ministers father. rambling over and over again with scripted prayer. They also claim that you must confess your sins to man and he channels it to God. Well I don't need anyone to pray to God for me, Jesus taught us how to do it ourselves. So after 1800yrs we don't question it, we just accept that is how it is. This is a bad foundation. Jesus Christ is the corner stone to all foundations. He is the strong foundation that we all must use. If Jesus won't do it than Christians are not to do it, that is the foundation.


Would Jesus bow to the cross?-no
Would Jesus wear a cross?-no
Would Jesus bow and pray to the saints?-no
Would Jesus call the pope Holy Father?-no.
Would Jesus pray to Mary his mother?-no.

Plus if the catholic faith was the true faith, God would never let pedophiles teach his word. It is Satan's church that is why you find Satans kind in there teaching. False witnesses molesting children in the church.

The catholic faith is the foundation to all modern churches. Not Jesus. The foundation that the catholic church created is weak and crumbles as we speak. But the foundation that Jesus started is still there. We need only look at his teachings, no one else. Look before the catholic church. None of those practices existed until them. Cross, saints, praying to mary, calling ministers and the pope father. None, The teaching of Jesus is the true foundation. Not the churches.

 

[butterflyinchrist]

But what if he was killed with a AK-47. Would you wear that in his honor. We are to wear our faith like Armour. Not a trinket. If you had a loved one killed by being stabbed to death, would you hang a knife on the wall to remember your loved one?

Ok I think you may have got me wrong. Ok wearing a cross is a little bit more than "remembering a loved one". It identifies me as part of the worldwide family of God. It reminds me (and I know I shouldn't need reminding but we all do sometimes) of what he did for me, for everyone around me and what I should have as the focus of my life.
No if a loved one was stabbed to death I wouldn't hang a knife on the wall to remember them but I would probably keep stuff around that reminded me of them because I know what it's like to loose someone and be scared that you might forget to remember them. That's kind of what I'm like with Jesus sometimes. I get scared that I might forget who I am to Him and do something stupid.
I definitely agree that we should wear our faith like armour and it doesn't consist of wearing a little trinket around your neck but it does entail showing the world who you believe in. There have been a few times when non-believers have come out and asked me why I wear a cross and it gives me an opportunity to share Jesus with them.
To be honest I think that some people probably would wear a little AK-47 around their neck if that was what killed him. But that argument doesn't hold water because that's not how he died!