Is the Cross an Idol???

[Lonnie]

I understand that Quijote, but dont think think you there would be better items to remember Jesus, and what he has done for you?

I just think it is almost silly to have the most horrific items that have existed in the biblical times used to remind us of that Jesus has forgiven us our sins.

I am not saying that we ought to forget what Jesus has done for us, I just think it is ironic that we choose the more horrific item that existed when Jesus was alive to remember him.

 

[Quijote]

Remeber the Jeremiah post I posted you forgot that.
jeremiah 10:1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
jeremiah 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
jeremiah 10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the ax.
jeremiah 10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
jeremiah 10:5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

I'm sorry but a cross does fit that discription. The bible has told us and we choose to ignore it.

Jeremiah is warning us against idolatry. Of that you are correct. You say that the cross fits this description. I say that there might be a few who worship the cross instead of Christ and that those people are commiting idolatry. However, having the cross as a reminder of Christ's sacrifice is not idol worshiping.

There is nothing wrong with a cross/crucifix. It is the value that people assign to the cross/crucifix that can be a problem. Unfortunately for both of us, we cannot see into a person's heart/soul and know what value they assign to the cross/crucifix.

cheers

 

[Quijote]

I understand that Quijote, but dont think think you there would be better items to remember Jesus, and what he has done for you?

I just think it is almost silly to have the most horrific items that have existed in the biblical times used to remind us of that Jesus has forgiven us our sins.

I am not saying that we ought to forget what Jesus has done for us, I just think it is ironic that we choose the more horrific item that existed when Jesus was alive to remember him.

People use other items to remember God. A dove, an olive branch, etc... We are certainly free to remember Christ and His sacrifice with any item that we choose. The cross/crucifix has been the most popular because it is the item that God chose to use to communicate His salvation to us.

cheers

 

[Logicalthinker]

To say that when someone kneels down before a crucifix or wears a cross around there neck..that they are committing idolatry is ridiculous, it merely represents to them the Christ's Passion.

Peace be with you ...Pam

I didn't say that GOD did
exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

That goes for the cross and saints. Nothing not anything it says. not anything from heaven (Statues of Saints and Jesus). Not anything from earth, notice the word any thing(Crosses, Statues of Saints), Not anything from the sea, Well I don't know of anything from the sea that is worshiped right off hand. Does not mean it doesn't happen. It clearly says Any Any Anything is not to be bowed to. Maybe cathloics don't want to believe their Idolaters. But the evidence is overwhelming. I went to my aunt's funeral. She was catholic and they all prayed to everyone except God or Jesus. I tell people it was the buns or steel work out. up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down. But not once during the service did anyone go down on their knees to pray to God. I was disgusted. Made me sick.

 

[Logicalthinker]

Jeremiah is warning us against idolatry. Of that you are correct. You say that the cross fits this description. I say that there might be a few who worship the cross instead of Christ and that those people are commiting idolatry. However, having the cross as a reminder of Christ's sacrifice is not idol worshiping.

There is nothing wrong with a cross/crucifix. It is the value that people assign to the cross/crucifix that can be a problem. Unfortunately for both of us, we cannot see into a person's heart/soul and know what value they assign to the cross/crucifix.

cheers

exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Notice the words any thing. Not a little or something but clearly say anything. anything.

 

[Quijote]

Maybe cathloics don't want to believe their Idolaters. But the evidence is overwhelming. I went to my aunt's funeral. She was catholic and they all prayed to everyone except God or Jesus. I tell people it was the buns or steel work out. up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down. But not once during the service did anyone go down on their knees to pray to God. I was disgusted. Made me sick.

lol, you must have not paid much attention then

If a funeral Mass was said for your aunt and you were there and you did not hear anyone praying to God/JEsus/Holy Spirit then you were there physically but you mind was somewhere else. The entire Mass is loaded with prayers to God.......

Maybe you went to her viewing and they were praying the rosary? (though even then the Our Father is prayed).

cheers

 

[Logicalthinker]

People use other items to remember God. A dove, an olive branch, etc... We are certainly free to remember Christ and His sacrifice with any item that we choose. The cross/crucifix has been the most popular because it is the item that God chose to use to communicate His salvation to us.

cheers

No It's what the Romans used to Kill him. I have no problem with a dove or fish. They did not kill my Lord. He was forced to drag it and then be nailed to it. What if it was a gilatine that he dragged to the top of the mountain and had died that way. Would you use a Gilatine to remember our Lord than. Satan gave us the cross.

 

[Quijote]

exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Notice the words any thing. Not a little or something but clearly say anything. anything.

If you are interested in reading a good explanation of the Catholic position on statues vs. idolatry the link below should help:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp

an excerpt:

People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20).

David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."

Having statues does not equate idolatry...again, it's in the value of what we place on the statues, not on the statues themselves.

cheers

 

[Quijote]

No It's what the Romans used to Kill him. I have no problem with a dove or fish. They did not kill my Lord. He was forced to drag it and then be nailed to it. What if it was a gilatine that he dragged to the top of the mountain and had died that way. Would you use a Gilatine to remember our Lord than. Satan gave us the cross.

You're right! God allowed the Romans to use the cross as the method of His death.

I'm happy that you don't have aproblem with a dove or fish as symbols of Christ, but I'm curious, how would using a dove or a fish as symbols of Christ not be idolatry?

Also, when the Guillotine was "in vogue" in France, women used to wear little guillotines hanging from a chain around their necks. So it was fashionable once

 

[Logicalthinker]

lol, you must have not paid much attention then

If a funeral Mass was said for your aunt and you were there and you did not hear anyone praying to God/JEsus/Holy Spirit then you were there physically but you mind was somewhere else. The entire Mass is loaded with prayers to God.......

Maybe you went to her viewing and they were praying the rosary? (though even then the Our Father is prayed).

cheers

God does not like the rammbler and the rosery is rammbling plus Jesus made it very clear that anyone could pray to God. I don't have to pray to a stupid statue to talk to my god. The statues of the saints is urine.
Jesus never said go out and build churches in my name. He said spread the word in my name. Churches are like a cool clear glass of water. If you were thirsty you would drink that water up, But if I was to take an eye dropper and drop one drop of urine in the water than no one would drink it. God feels the same way about churches, as soon as they allow finger pointing, idolatry and praying to anyone other than God through Jesus they have dropped urine in their church.

 

[Logicalthinker]

If you are interested in reading a good explanation of the Catholic position on statues vs. idolatry the link below should help:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp

an excerpt:

People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20).

David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."

Having statues does not equate idolatry...again, it's in the value of what we place on the statues, not on the statues themselves.

cheers

The bible is all I need thank you. The bible has the truth not a bunch of Hippocrates.

 

[Logicalthinker]

If you are interested in reading a good explanation of the Catholic position on statues vs. idolatry the link below should help:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp

an excerpt:

People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20).

David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."

Having statues does not equate idolatry...again, it's in the value of what we place on the statues, not on the statues themselves.

cheers

Plus like I said God told us to. Where does it say pray to man that is dead. And man does not pick the saints. GOD does.

 

[Quijote]

God does not like the rammbler and the rosery is rammbling plus Jesus made it very clear that anyone could pray to God. I don't have to pray to a stupid statue to talk to my god. The statues of the saints is urine.

To quote Jim Blackburn: Jesus said, “in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words” (Mt 6:7). Praying isn’t just about quantity – quality matters, too. When repetition is used, meditation is important so that our prayers do not become meaningless

Jesus never said go out and build churches in my name. He said spread the word in my name. Churches are like a cool clear glass of water. If you were thirsty you would drink that water up, But if I was to take an eye dropper and drop one drop of urine in the water than no one would drink it. God feels the same way about churches, as soon as they allow finger pointing, idolatry and praying to anyone other than God through Jesus they have dropped urine in their church.

 

[Logicalthinker]

You're right! God allowed the Romans to use the cross as the method of His death.

They were using years before Jesus was crucified. Thats just how they killed people.

I'm happy that you don't have aproblem with a dove or fish as symbols of Christ, but I'm curious, how would using a dove or a fish as symbols of Christ not be idolatry?

They were not used to kill our Lord. A cross is a torture device.

Also, when the Guillotine was "in vogue" in France, women used to wear little guillotines hanging from a chain around their necks. So it was fashionable once

Those people suffered from blood lust I'm afraid. They loved to go to the town square with the kids and watch peoples heads a roll. Now do you wear a cross because that is something you enjoy?

 

[Quijote]

The bible is all I need thank you. The bible has the truth not a bunch of Hippocrates.

What does Hippocrates have to do with what we're talking about?

Hippocrates
(hĭpŏk´r

tēz) , c.460—c.370 , Greek physician, recognized as the father of medicine. He is believed to have been born on the island of Cos...



It always helps to address the issues at hand in order to have a pleasant conversation.

cheers

 

[Quijote]

You're right! God allowed the Romans to use the cross as the method of His death

They were using years before Jesus was crucified. Thats just how they killed people.

Again, you're right!

I'm happy that you don't have aproblem with a dove or fish as symbols of Christ, but I'm curious, how would using a dove or a fish as symbols of Christ not be idolatry?

They were not used to kill our Lord. A cross is a torture device.

So you approve of idolatry as long as the idol is not a torture device?

Also, when the Guillotine was "in vogue" in France, women used to wear little guillotines hanging from a chain around their necks. So it was fashionable once

Those people suffered from blood lust I'm afraid. They loved to go to the town square with the kids and watch peoples heads a roll. Now do you wear a cross because that is something you enjoy?

I agree with your description of those wearing guillotines around their necks (no pun intended).

Yes, I enjoy wearing my cross. Not because I see it as a torture device but, as I've said before, as a reminder of the price Christ payed for my salvation.

cheers

 

[Logicalthinker]

To quote Jim Blackburn: Jesus said, “in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words” (Mt 6:7). Praying isn’t just about quantity – quality matters, too. When repetition is used, meditation is important so that our prayers do not become meaningless

I do pray and God has shown me the truth. None of this material poo matters. Nothing. All I need is the close on my back and to know that Jesus died for me, I've been baptized and I will persevere to the end. Thats all, no saints, no crosses, no poo.
Plus Safer than sorry. Even if I'm wrong, I'm right. God will not hold it against me for not believeing in the cross or saints. But if your wrong. well, we will see.

 

[Logicalthinker]

Again, you're right!




So you approve of idolatry as long as the idol is not a torture device?




I agree with your description of those wearing guillotines around their necks (no pun intended).

Yes, I enjoy wearing my cross. Not because I see it as a torture device but, as I've said before, as a reminder of the price Christ payed for my salvation.

cheers

or worshipped

 

[Quijote]

I do pray and God has shown me the truth. None of this material **** matters. Nothing. All I need is the close on my back and to know that Jesus died for me, I've been baptized and I will persevere to the end. Thats all, no saints, no crosses, no ****.
Plus Safer than sorry. Even if I'm wrong, I'm right. God will not hold it against me for not believeing in the cross or saints. But if your wrong. well, we will see.

I agree with you that it is not necessary for one's salvation to own/wear a cross/crucifix. I'm happy to hear that you have a strong relationship w/God.

cheers

 

[Quijote]

or worshipped