Is the creation debate over?

[jameslouise]

The stance among Gap Theorists is that the word create (bara) means a new thing from God. (I would expand this to a new design from God) and make (asah) meaning anything God works on he has made, so making 'create' a subset of 'made'

Genesis 1 uses the phrase 'it was so' 6 times and perhaps 7 with the modified 'it was so; to 'was' in Gen 1:3
I suggest the ‘it was so’ has a plain text and obvious meaning. I suggest it is a confirmation of Gap Theory as it is referring to life or the cosmos in the previous creation. ‘It used to be that way’ (in the first creation). Note the way ‘it was so’ is never used when the word created (‘bara’) is used. ‘Bara’ is used for man and whales and birds, all of which are not in the original creation in Gap Theory as I present it-more later. They cannot be subject to ‘it was so’ as they were not there.
This is consistent with ‘bara’ meaning a new creation from God. And explains the omission of ‘it was so ‘ from some days or from some day 6 statements. (Gen 1:20-23) (Gen 1:26-27) (Gen 1:28).
Genesi 1:29-30 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so
Note how animals are vegetarians and have an added ’it was so’ whereas. man also is described as a vegetarian but he does not get the ‘it was so’ added. Why?
In effect any reference to man or a new creation (bara) bars the use of 'it was so' as they are not in the original creation.

'It was so what' you say? Well, there is a double narrative running right through Genesis 1 and 2 that, IMO, confirms Gap Theory beyond any doubt, every word in every verse, The double narrative first identified by Paul the Apostle in 2 Cor 4;6 but being extendable to both chapters and the whole only works with Gap theory and I believe with all my heart I can prove it.

Genesis Similitudes

 

[BobRyan]

not sure what you are proposing since each of the days in the time boxed chronological sequence of Gen 1 are bounded by "and evening and morning were the nth day"

Professor James Barr, Regius Professor of Hebrew at the University of Oxford, has written:

​

‘Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1–11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that:​

​

(a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience​

​

(b) the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story​

​

(c) Noah’s flood was understood to be world-wide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark.​

​

Or, to put it negatively, the apologetic arguments which suppose the "days" of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know.’​

​

==========================================​

​

Combine that with the fact that Moses' audience - newly freed slaves from Egypt - where not going to insert much creative writing ideas into his text - it is hard to see the text going into gap theory.

So while there can easily be a "gap" between vs 1 and 2 -- the rest is sequential with its time boxed element of evening and morning.

====================

on day 3 God makes the plants that are food for man and animal

on day 6 when God makes man he tells man that he made the plants and trees for man and animal to eat.

That is how it would be stated in a contiguous 7 day sequence so I don't see how that requires a gap.

If God meant to say in Gen 1

" God created earth, its firmament, dry land and plants, the sun and the moon - then on day 1 God created fish and birds and evening and morning where the first day. Then on day 2 God created man and land animals and evening and morning were the second day"​

well there was a way to say that

​

Ex 20:11 puts that 7 day sequence in a unit that is equated with the 7 days of the week at Sinai ...

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 For six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) your God; on it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male slave or your female slave, or your cattle, or your resident who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; for that reason the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Gen 2: 1 And so the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their heavenly lights. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

 

[jameslouise]

not sure what you are proposing since each of the days in the time boxed chronological sequence of Gen 1 are bounded by "and evening and morning were the nth day"

Professor James Barr, Regius Professor of Hebrew at the University of Oxford, has written:

​

‘Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1–11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that:​

​

(a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience​

​

(b) the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story​

​

(c) Noah’s flood was understood to be world-wide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark.​

​

Or, to put it negatively, the apologetic arguments which suppose the "days" of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know.’​

​

==========================================​

​

Combine that with the fact that Moses' audience - newly freed slaves from Egypt - where not going to insert much creative writing ideas into his text - it is hard to see the text going into gap theory.

So while there can easily be a "gap" between vs 1 and 2 -- the rest is sequential with its time boxed element of evening and morning.

====================

on day 3 God makes the plants that are food for man and animal

on day 6 when God makes man he tells man that he made the plants and trees for man and animal to eat.

That is how it would be stated in a contiguous 7 day sequence so I don't see how that requires a gap.

If God meant to say in Gen 1

" God created earth, its firmament, dry land and plants, the sun and the moon - then on day 1 God created fish and birds and evening and morning where the first day. Then on day 2 God created man and land animals and evening and morning were the second day"​

well there was a way to say that

​

Ex 20:11 puts that 7 day sequence in a unit that is equated with the 7 days of the week at Sinai ...

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 For six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) your God; on it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male slave or your female slave, or your cattle, or your resident who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; for that reason the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Gen 2: 1 And so the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their heavenly lights. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

hi Rob thanks for the reply, appreciated, In the order that your Q's appear

No problem, I agree all the days are 24 hour days but I favour ereb and boqer to mean both decreasing entropy and 'darkness coming light', Genesis 1:1 being before all of those days

I completely agree with Prof Barr- good on 'im- the days being a simple chronology but for a mainly RE-made world

Rob says: on day 3 God makes the plants that are food for man and animal
.I suggest, every time God uses 'made' (asah) it is a copy of a previous design (from the previous creation) that's why He will say 'it was so' (it used to be like that in the previous creation,)Every time God uses the word create (meaning a new design or a copy of a design from Heaven-not in the world) ( e.g.Man in Gen 1:26-27). God will not use 'it was so' if it is not in the first creation or anything pertaining to man who is also not in the first creation 'it was so' will not be used.

Rob says: If God meant to say in Gen 1 " God created earth, its firmament, dry land and plants, the sun and the moon - then on day 1 God created fish and birds and evening and morning where the first day. Then on day 2 God created man and land animals and evening and morning were the second day"
The whole of Genesis 1 and 2 tell two simultaneous narratives-beautiful and elegant parallels-a newly remade earth and a newly born again/remade spirit (it all testifies to Christ). if God put a gap of a few million years between Gen 1 and Gen it would invalidate the parallel running metaphor as there is no such gap between Adams creation and fall. He doesn't describe the plants and firmament etc because again the Heaven and the earth of Genesis 1:1 can within established dual meanings represent mans 'base spirit' (earth)and the in-dwellings (heaven an abode of God)-they are deliberate omissions.

Rob says 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth,
Completely agree no problem for me here anything God works on he has made, created being a subset of made. if God creates something exclusionary new He will say he has created it but made (asah) is still valid. God worked on everything all the cosmos was switched back on again and the web page link below will give scripture to back all of this up. If God said here he had created everything in 6 days I would not be a Gap Theorist

Rob says Gen 2: 1 And so the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their heavenly lights. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
Not sure which version this is? But Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made provides an amazing parallel with our indwelt born again spirit- God sanctifies and IN dwells us too, bit too much to get into here check out the link and 'double constructs' below.

Genesis Similitudes

 

[BobRyan]

Rob says 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth,
Completely agree no problem for me here anything God works on he has made, created being a subset of made. if God creates something exclusionary new He will say he has created it but made (asah) is still valid. God worked on everything all the cosmos was switched back on again and the web page link below will give scripture to back all of this up. If God said here he had created everything in 6 days I would not be a Gap Theorist

Ok so I am not sure where we may differ here.

I don't think anything other than our solar system (possibly just our Sun and moon ) was created in that 7 day week as far as objects in space go -- the earth appears to have already been here in some very basic (no atmosphere, no dry land) form on Day 1 before the start of day 1 and I think the text leaves the option open that all of the universe, angels, heaven etc existed before Earth's day 1.

But I don't think there was a prior Earth creation with life on it - here on Earth prior to day one. Is your point that the 7 days are a literal 7 days for earth - but that something unknown happened before that time?

Other suns, planets galaxies ? -- yes I suspect that was the case before Earth was created.
Other beings? life? heaven? angels? - yes, - before Earth was created

Day 4 God created exactly "two" lights in the sky (as the number given for day 4).
God is also the creator of the stars - but he did not create them on day 4. They were already there.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Earth was not an M class planet before day 1. It was just a chaotic mess. The 7 days transformed the earth into a habitual planet.

 

[jameslouise]

Ok so I am not sure where we may differ here.

I don't think anything other than our solar system (possibly just our Sun and moon ) was created in that 7 day week as far as objects in space go -- the earth appears to have already been here in some very basic (no atmosphere, no dry land) form on Day 1 before the start of day 1 and I think the text leaves the option open that all of the universe, angels, heaven etc existed before Earth's day 1.

But I don't think there was a prior Earth creation with life on it - here on Earth prior to day one. Is your point that the 7 days are a literal 7 days for earth - but that something unknown happened before that time?

Other suns, planets galaxies ? -- yes I suspect that was the case before Earth was created.
Other beings? life? heaven? angels? - yes, - before Earth was created

Day 4 God created exactly "two" lights in the sky (as the number given for day 4).
God is also the creator of the stars - but he did not create them on day 4. They were already there.

Hi Rob-( btw,too many post to delete the copy thread?)The judged earth of Genesis 1:2 will parallel man's/Adam fallen spirit, both in darkness and tohun and bohu. There must be a previous creation to match Adam's pre-fallen spirit. the whole of Genesis 1 and 2 testify to the Lord Jesus Christ with this second parallel story

Rob says: Other suns, planets galaxies ? -- yes I suspect that was the case before Earth was created.
Other beings? life? heaven? angels? - yes, - before Earth was created. all answered on a slightly different web page and all answers ultimately testify To Christ home-the history of everything 1

Rob asks: Day 4 God created exactly "two" lights in the sky (as the number given for day 4).
God is also the creator of the stars - but he did not create them on day 4. They were already there.
Why did God use the word lights? there are Hebrew words for sun and moon and stars, why not use them? By using 'lights' the words can carry a second meaning, lights can mean sun and moon but can also represent Jesus and The Holy Spirit. Jesus the light of the world then the light of our life. God can set these lights (the sun and the moon) in the firmament of Heaven our atmosphere and in the second meaning (heaven means an abode of God ) so set them-Jesus and The Holy Spirit in our heaven(in-dwelling ) too.
Totally agree about stars not made in totality on day 4 but all were switched back on so God can say he made them i.e. He worked on them all.(this is much easier to grasp under the Electric Universe model

Any 'it was so' defines the previous creation, so as God said 'lights'and not sun or moon this hints that there was no sun and moon in the first creation and taken with Genesis 1:3 describes the first creation as lit from the glory of God, again mirroring Adam's pre-fallen spirit.

home-the history of everything 1

 

[jameslouise]

Earth was not an M class planet before day 1. It was just a chaotic mess. The 7 days transformed the earth into a habitual planet.

hi savedbygrace. Genesis tells me of a previous creation that had grasses herbs and trees, fish and animals but no humans and all were vegetarian to start with. Big ones too. I don t think it was class m as the mist was too dense to breath according to some revelation. You would need beaming up sharpish

 

[BobRyan]

There must be a previous creation to match Adam's pre-fallen spirit. the whole of Genesis 1 and 2 testify to the Lord Jesus Christ with this second parallel story

Not sure what that means. But I do agree that sinless Adam and Eve were in company with the sinless Created universe of God.

Only the fallen Angels (we call them demons) were out of harmony with that sinless universe before Earth was created. And at one time even those evil angels - were sinless.

Rob asks: Day 4 God created exactly "two" lights in the sky (as the number given for day 4).
God is also the creator of the stars - but he did not create them on day 4. They were already there.
Why did God use the word lights? there are Hebrew words for sun and moon and stars, why not use them?

I think he makes it clear in the verse -

14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night,​

​

Clearly the Sun separates day from night.

​

14... and they shall serve as signs and for seasons, and for days and years;​

​

Earth's rotation combined with the position of the Sun give us "days" .. The Sun was "For days" for giving us days.

It's position also determines years.

15 and they shall serve as lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”;​

The two brightest lights in the sky that "give light on the Earth" - are pretty obvious. Sun, and moon. nothing else compares in terms of "giving light on Earth" when we look in the sky.

and it was so. 16 God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night;​

One light is dominant in the day and the other is dominant in the night. We can see which is which. Only the Sun and moon serve that role.

He made the stars also. 17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

Clearly the Sun separates day from night.

By using 'lights' the words can carry a second meaning, lights can mean sun and moon but can also represent Jesus

If Jesus' position in the determines the boundary of each day ... then ??? not sure where that idea comes from

 

[jameslouise]

Not sure what that means. But I do agree that sinless Adam and Eve were in company with the sinless Created universe of God.

Only the fallen Angels (we call them demons) were out of harmony with that sinless universe before Earth was created. And at one time even those evil angels - were sinless.

I think he makes it clear in the verse -

14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night,​

​

Clearly the Sun separates day from night.

​

14... and they shall serve as signs and for seasons, and for days and years;​

​

Earth's rotation combined with the position of the Sun give us "days" .. The Sun was "For days" for giving us days.

It's position also determines years.

15 and they shall serve as lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”;​

The two brightest lights in the sky that "give light on the Earth" - are pretty obvious. Sun, and moon. nothing else compares in terms of "giving light on Earth" when we look in the sky.

and it was so. 16 God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night;​

One light is dominant in the day and the other is dominant in the night. We can see which is which. Only the Sun and moon serve that role.

He made the stars also. 17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

Clearly the Sun separates day from night.


If Jesus' position in the determines the boundary of each day ... then ??? not sure where that idea comes from

Thanks again for the reply, I am in complete agreement with you but I am also adding something. In Genesis 1-14-19 I agree exactly that God made (worked on) the sun and moon and all the stars in a literal 24 hour day and they will be for days and nights and for sign and seasons. Absolutely spot on.
But in addition to that, I can also say, just from these verses and nothing else and not using NewTestamant scripture. that before salvation Jesus will be the light of the world, the Holy Spirit will act on our spirit and after salvation Jesus will be the light of our life and we will be indwelt by Jesus and The Holy Spirit and they will also be for signs and seasons for us and tell us good form evil. I can also say that the first creation was not lit by the Sun or Moon but did have stars and with verse 3 that the earth then was was lit by the Glory of God. This is all done in these verses by exquisite and elegant text.
To help show my stance I have prepared a graphic for you which explains it better

Genesis Similitudes

 

[Sabertooth]

The stance among Gap Theorists is that the word create (bara) means a new thing from God.

Not every Gap Theorist supposes it to be a dynamic Gap. As written, the "gap" ["Day" 0] did not yet have

• light [created on Day 1],
• air to breathe [created on Day 2] nor
• dry land [created on Day 3]

to support plant & animal life as we currently understand it.

Well, there is a double narrative running right through Genesis 1 and 2 that, IMO, confirms Gap Theory beyond any doubt, every word in every verse...

The more straightforward interpretation is that chapter two is an elaboration of Day 6, the creation of Man & Woman.

Are There Two Conflicting ''Creation Stories'' in Genesis...?

Some people contend that the Day 6 Creation accounts are contradictory making them unreliable, but I would propose that they CAN be made ...

transcendiary.blogspot.com

 

[BobRyan]

Thanks again for the reply, I am in complete agreement with you but I am also adding something. In Genesis 1-14-19 I agree exactly that God made (worked on) the sun and moon and all the stars in a literal 24 hour day and they will be for days and nights and for sign and seasons. Absolutely spot on.

I am not making that claim. On day 4 God created two lights (as per Genesis 1) not "a zillion and two". The text says HE is also the creator of the stars but does not tell us the time for each star - as to when He created it. Genesis 1 is consistent with the view that the stars existed before the Sun, Moon and life on Earth.

I can also say that the first creation was not lit by the Sun or Moon but did have stars

I am not sure what you mean by "the first creation". But I do agree that for some number of years there were stars and in that age, during that time, there was no life on the "formless and void" Earth, Earth had no Sun and Earth had no Moon.

 

[BobRyan]

Not every Gap Theorist supposes it to be a dynamic Gap. As written, the "gap" ["Day" 0] did not yet have

• light [created on Day 1],
• air to breathe [created on Day 2] nor
• dry land [created on Day 3]

to support plant & animal life as we currently understand it.

Certainly that is true for the formless-and-void Earth prior to the first day of creation week in Genesis 1.
No Atmosphere, no life on Earth etc.

 

[Sabertooth]

No Atmosphere,...

Earth was completely surrounded in water until Day 3.

 

[Aussie Pete]

The text supports the possibility of a creation prior to the 6 days of the Genesis account. It also accounts for many of the apparent contradictions between geology and Genesis. I accepted the traditional view for much of my Christian life. I am not bothered by apparent contradictions. However, gap theory is plausible. I believe it also fits more the character of God. Why would God create a formless, empty planet to start with?

 

[Sabertooth]

Why would God create a formless, empty planet to start with?

It is like throwing a glob of clay onto the Potter's wheel.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Some consider this a prelude to Gen 1:2, and a description of what happened to the earth between 1:1 and 1:2

Jeremiah 4:23-26 KJV
23. I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

This is a planet that once had inhabited cities, but as a result of a terrible judgement, the entire population of the earth was wiped out. The result was a planet "without form and void" and deep darkness. Next? Gen 1:2

Genesis 1:2 KJV
2. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The word "was" in the phrase "earth WAS without form and void" is also translated "become/became" 133 times in the OT.
The earth "became" without form and void.

Strong's:

haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

Lastly, the word says God did not create it that way, and it was created to be inhabited.

Isaiah 45:18 KJV
18. For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

The gap explains what happened to it.