Is The Concept of God Incoherent?

[durangodawood]

....I just go on what the Bible says about it.

Thats fair. But as a reply to me it represents a faith decision and the failure of argument.

But thats where Christian commitment ultimately lives, right, after all the shouting is over?

 

[Tree of Life]

Thats fair. But as a reply to me it represents a faith decision and the failure of argument.

But thats where Christian commitment ultimately lives, right, after all the shouting is over?

Yes Christianity ultimately must assume God's existence and assume the truth of Scripture as a faith assumption.

But I believe that you are challenging my assumption based on a faith assumption of your own. You are assuming that God could not have a good reason for permitting events to play out as they have.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I think that this is a profound misunderstanding of the God of the Bible. The Bible presents a God who is in perfect control over the events in the garden, over his dealings with Satan, and over his wayward people. The Scriptures continually recognize that even though everything seems to be going wrong, nothing can thwart God's purposes and he has good purposes in allowing events to play out as they do. God is wanting a particular story to unfold which includes all of the dramatic elements you've mentioned above.

As durangodowood pointed out, this simply isn't consistent with a reading of the Bible. The God of the Bible experiences anger, jealousy, surprise and vengefulness. But it's understandable why you'd want to paint God in a different light. Here you are, a civilised twenty-first century person, a member of a religion that was written by a tribe of bronze-age savages. No wonder you have to make excuses for God!

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Yes Christianity ultimately must assume God's existence and assume the truth of Scripture as a faith assumption.

Yes. Because there's no evidence of God. Faith is "I don't have good reason to think this, but I'm deciding to anyway", and it's an admission of losing the argument.

 

[durangodawood]

Yes Christianity ultimately must assume God's existence and assume the truth of Scripture as a faith assumption.

But I believe that you are challenging my assumption based on a faith assumption of your own. You are assuming that God could not have a good reason for permitting events to play out as they have.

I agree, God could have a good reason why what looks to us like a do-over was actually part of the plan.

But as some point we might ask, are we bending over backwards to preserve a certain theological position that the narrative really doesn't justify?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

But as some point we might ask, are bending over backwards to preserve a certain theological position that the narrative really doesn't justify?

The voice of reason.
Especially as the Bible itself shows that this is not all going according to God's plan. God gets angry when things don't go His way, He is jealous, He takes and orders revenge, He is surprised when things go wrong.

 

[durangodawood]

The voice of reason.
Especially as the Bible itself shows that this is not all going according to God's plan. God gets angry when things don't go His way, He is jealous, He takes and orders revenge, He is surprised when things go wrong.

And also, if God has a plan.... then why does he change his mind after bargaining with Abraham, or pleas from Moses?

I guess God's initial stated position could all be for show (though there's zero indication of that)... But if we start down this road, then the reliability of everything God says comes into doubt.

 

[JackRT]

Yes. God is an absolute person.

So you opt for theism rather than deism or polytheism or henotheism or monotheism or pantheism or panentheism?

 

[hedrick]

Yes that's what the Bible says. All things are for the glory of God. All events that unfold - especially those recorded in Scripture - teach us about God. The short book of Habakkuk illustrates and communicates this very well.

Please consider that according to the NT the glory of God is shown in the crucifixion.

 

[Tree of Life]

So you opt for theism rather than deism or polytheism or henotheism or monotheism or pantheism or panentheism?

If I understand your question I would say that I'm arguing for Christian theism. The gods of deism, polytheism, heotheism, pantheism, etc... are all either not persons or not absolute. As far as I can tell, only the God of the Bible is an absolute person.

 

[Tree of Life]

Please consider that according to the NT the glory of God is shown in the crucifixion.

Yes certainly. But the NT does not claim that the glory of God is only shown in the crucifixion.

 

[Tree of Life]

I agree, God could have a good reason why what looks to us like a do-over was actually part of the plan.

But as some point we might ask, are we bending over backwards to preserve a certain theological position that the narrative really doesn't justify?

I take the Pentateuch to be one literary unit. So while it may be unclear according to the first six chapters of Genesis that God is in complete control, this is more than clarified by the time the rest of the book of Genesis (let alone the rest of the Pentateuch) is finished.

 

[durangodawood]

I take the Pentateuch to be one literary unit. So while it may be unclear according to the first six chapters of Genesis that God is in complete control, this is more than clarified by the time the rest of the book of Genesis (let alone the rest of the Pentateuch) is finished.

Instances of God bargaining and responding to pleas and changing his mind illustrate to me that there is not a plan unfolding so much as a history in which God is participating.

 

[Tree of Life]

Instances of God bargaining and responding to pleas and changing his mind illustrate to me that there is not a plan unfolding so much as a history in which God is participating.

Let's consider an example. In Genesis 15 God makes a covenant with Abraham and tells him that his descendants will be enslaved in Egypt for 400 years until God comes down to deliver them. There's many reasons for this, but one reason that's given is that the sin of the Canaanites has not yet reached its full measure. When it does, God will give Canaan to Abraham's descendants.

As the story unfolds, Abraham's descendants do end up in Egypt. But they end up in Egypt because of their own sin. Joseph's brothers sinfully sell him into slavery in Egypt and this starts the whole process of Israel relocating to Egypt. The Scriptures also teach that it was sinful for Pharaoh to enslave the Egyptians and that Pharaoh was in rebellion against Yahweh. And yet God says to Pharaoh: "I have raised you up for this very purpose..."

In terms of literary analysis, that sounds to me like a God who is in control of the events. What do you think?

 

[durangodawood]

Let's consider an example. In Genesis 15 God makes a covenant with Abraham and tells him that his descendants will be enslaved in Egypt for 400 years until God comes down to deliver them. There's many reasons for this, but one reason that's given is that the sin of the Canaanites has not yet reached its full measure. When it does, God will give Canaan to Abraham's descendants.

As the story unfolds, Abraham's descendants do end up in Egypt. But they end up in Egypt because of their own sin. Joseph's brothers sinfully sell him into slavery in Egypt and this starts the whole process of Israel relocating to Egypt. The Scriptures also teach that it was sinful for Pharaoh to enslave the Egyptians and that Pharaoh was in rebellion against Yahweh. And yet God says to Pharaoh: "I have raised you up for this very purpose..."

In terms of literary analysis, that sounds to me like a God who is in control of the events. What do you think?

Oh absolutely God has a measure of control. There's no doubt He's the creator and engineers all sorts of events. But there's not one pre-set plan unfolding. Pre-Noah, he clearly wanted for humanity to succeed. How did that plan go?

 

[Tree of Life]

Oh absolutely God has a measure of control. There's no doubt He's the creator and engineers all sorts of events. But there's not one pre-set plan unfolding. Pre-Noah, he clearly wanted for humanity to succeed. How did that plan go?

Based on what the rest of Scripture says about God's control I would not accept that assumption. Other parts of Scripture clearly say that there is one plan unfolding which includes even what appear to be catastrophic failures like the pre-deluvian societies.

 

[durangodawood]

Based on what the rest of Scripture says about God's control I would not accept that assumption. Other parts of Scripture clearly say that there is one plan unfolding which includes even what appear to be catastrophic failures like the pre-deluvian societies.

Further on God changes his mind based on interactions with people. Thats not indicative of a plan. Thats winging it.

 

[Tree of Life]

Further on God changes his mind based on interactions with people. Thats not indicative of a plan. Thats winging it.

I think if we analyzed any example of God allegedly changing his mind we would see that this interpretation is far from certain. Could you suggest an example?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

If I can join in with this interesting conversation...

In Genesis 15 God makes a covenant with Abraham and tells him that his descendants will be enslaved in Egypt for 400 years until God comes down to deliver them. There's many reasons for this, but one reason that's given is that the sin of the Canaanites has not yet reached its full measure.

Oh-kay. We're off to a bad start straight away, it feels. "Hello, Abraham. Let's make a deal. I'll give you - well, your descendants - a wonderful kingdom. and it'll start off with them being slaves in Egypt. Don't worry, not for more than a few hundred years. It's because the sins of the Canaanites aren't yet "ripe". I need you to wait for them to get evil enough to be worth destroying."
If I were Abraham, that's a deal I'd think twice before taking.

Since you've asked, let's take a look at another example of God getting everything wrong: Jesus. So, here's God. For thousands of years, he's been the deity of a small tribe of people. And everything has gone wrong. They've been enslaved, they've been almost exterminated - more than once by God Himself, by the way - and, generally speaking, they never listen to a thing God says. They always get it wrong or, to put it another way, God can never get them to get it right.
So, what does God do? He decides to come down among them, as one of them.
What do His people do? They immediately kill Him.
Oh, but He comes back to life! Except the Jews refuse to listen to it. God's chosen people have turned their back on Him. So God has to start what is essentially a new religion with the gentiles. And this new religion immediately splinters into numerous different sects, something which continues to this day. Oh yes - and this day. Only a minority of humans are Christians - and consider that many of them - well, most of them - don't actually consider the others to be real Christians, then you have to wonder what God's grand plan is all about. Because what it's apparently going to end up with is a few people going to heaven, and most of humanity going to hell.
It is obvious in the Bible that God does have a number of plans, but things keep going wrong with them, and so He has to change them. Blaming human's free will doesn't help, because God should certainly be wise enough to help them to make the right choice without overriding their decision-making process. There is quite a gap between "Oh, just do whatever you want," and "Do exactly as I say, and nothing else", but God just doesn't seem able to manage the balance.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

If I can join in with this interesting conversation...



Oh-kay. We're off to a bad start straight away, it feels. "Hello, Abraham. Let's make a deal. I'll give you - well, your descendants - a wonderful kingdom. and it'll start off with them being slaves in Egypt. Don't worry, not for more than a few hundred years. It's because the sins of the Canaanites aren't yet "ripe". I need you to wait for them to get evil enough to be worth destroying."
If I were Abraham, that's a deal I'd think twice before taking.

Since you've asked, let's take a look at another example of God getting everything wrong: Jesus. So, here's God. For thousands of years, he's been the deity of a small tribe of people. And everything has gone wrong. They've been enslaved, they've been almost exterminated - more than once by God Himself, by the way - and, generally speaking, they never listen to a thing God says. They always get it wrong or, to put it another way, God can never get them to get it right.
So, what does God do? He decides to come down among them, as one of them.
What do His people do? They immediately kill Him.
Oh, but He comes back to life! Except the Jews refuse to listen to it. God's chosen people have turned their back on Him. So God has to start what is essentially a new religion with the gentiles. And this new religion immediately splinters into numerous different sects, something which continues to this day. Oh yes - and this day. Only a minority of humans are Christians - and consider that many of them - well, most of them - don't actually consider the others to be real Christians, then you have to wonder what God's grand plan is all about. Because what it's apparently going to end up with is a few people going to heaven, and most of humanity going to hell.
It is obvious in the Bible that God does have a number of plans, but things keep going wrong with them, and so He has to change them. Blaming human's free will doesn't help, because God should certainly be wise enough to help them to make the right choice without overriding their decision-making process. There is quite a gap between "Oh, just do whatever you want," and "Do exactly as I say, and nothing else", but God just doesn't seem able to manage the balance.

Thank you for providing us with your enlightened interpretation. But you might want to change your avatar name to Disinterested Atheist, for the reason that it'd be more honest that way.

What? Speak louder! Did you say something in response? I'm sorry, I can't hear you right now, there's a .......