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Is the Bible Infallible or totally subject to man's interpretation.

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Underdog77

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In debate with many OEC's and the like, much of the theological side of it has come down to whether we believe the Bible is infallible.

If it is infallible then it clearly tells us God made the universe and everything in it in 6 literal days.

But many people can't accept a 6 day creation and so they must say the Bible is not infallible. What do you all believe?
 

Late_Cretaceous

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I think the bible is fallible but that God is infallible.

Many argue that the bible is divinely inspired, but I personally do not agree with that. Even so, devine inspiration is not the same as raw dictation. The Qu'ran is believed by muslims to have been dictated. I have never encounted a christian who thinks the bible is the product of dictation. Think of it this way, an artist can see a sunset and be inspired to paint it - it could turn out to be an impressionist "modern art" painting that does not look much like reality, but is itself beautiful.

Most of the stories from the old testament were passed on through generations as oral traditions long before they were written down. The stories are rich in symbolism, imagery and double meanings (which dont always come through in translations)


The old testament is a combination of real history, myths and legends. Nothing wrong with that. Its more of a cultural traditon then a scientific or scholarly document.

The new testament is based on a handful of letters. The gospels are written in the names of apostles (or companions of apostles), but no scholar believes that they really came from the hand of Jesus' deciples.

The letters that came to make up the new testament were mostly written in the decades after Jesus died - up to a century later. Imagine writting today about events of the first world war without the benifit of any documentation or pictures - only the words of eye witnesses.

In the roman empire during those early days of christianity very very few people could read. Especially from the populace that converted to christianity. Those documents were written in Greek and without the benifit of spell checkers, printers, word processer and - get this - no spaces between words.

Imaginetryingtoreadanentiredocumentwrittenlikethissentance. (and then imagine trying to copy it by hand with a primitive pen by candlelight)

Paper was rare in those days. Scribes were even rarer The inks available didnt exactly contrast well against the background either. Sometimes documents were transcribed from Greek to Coptic to Latin bye people who may not have been totally fluent in those languages.

One document, written by a scribe contains 30 lines that were repeated. Apparently he didnt notice this. Maybe he was tired. Nevertheless, those 30 lines have more then 30 mistakes in them (differnces from one set to the other).

How many copies of Acts existed in the first centuries? A dozen, maybe. There were no photocopiers. These were rare manusripts even back then.
And no two were alike. IN additon to mistakes scirbes could insert stories from other manuscripts, or even make their own additons or deletions. There were forgeries too.

IN spite of this, however, the message of Jesus still rings through. Through all the mistakes and misdeeds of ancient scribes.

In my opinion, the bible should not be taken as word for word accurate. But the message still shines through. Just like the sunset in an impressionist paining.
 
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ShilohCity

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i believe the bible to be infallible. I choose to accept what God has preserved for us and not to rely on changing scientific ideas or to pervert the word to fit my own assumptions and ideas.

How was it Satan first tempted Eve? "Did God really say...?"
 
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Dracil

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ShilohCity said:
I choose to accept what God has preserved for us and not ... to pervert the word to fit my own assumptions and ideas.

That is a biological impossibility for humans. Every input to our brain is automatically processed with our previous assumptions and ideas. Or do you mean to say you are not human? :)
 
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L'Anatra

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Dracil said:
That is a biological impossibility for humans. Every input to our brain is automatically processed with our previous assumptions and ideas. Or do you mean to say you are not human? :)
That's the thing, in my mind, about literalists... they don't seem to understand that no matter how hard they try they could very well not be understanding God's intended message.

Like you said: being human, they will not. Nobody can.
 
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pressingon

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Underdog77 said:
In debate with many OEC's and the like, much of the theological side of it has come down to whether we believe the Bible is infallible.

If it is infallible then it clearly tells us God made the universe and everything in it in 6 literal days.

But many people can't accept a 6 day creation and so they must say the Bible is not infallible. What do you all believe?
Of course the Bible is infallible... when interpreted as God intended. For the most part, that's what the debate between TE's and Creationists is really about anyway.... interpretations, both of the Bible and of the scientific evidence from which we draw conclusions about creation.

As you no doubt realize from other posts of mine, I believe both point to a young earth. Of course, I'm also not prideful enough to believe that I'm incapable of error, which is the root of so many of the heated arguments, name-calling, etc. that we see in here. As I've stated before (not in these words), a little humility would go a long way.
 
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Late_Cretaceous

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monet%20sunset%20in%20venice.jpg


This is Monet's impression of a sunset. Does not look all that realistic does it. It's not accurate. It's not facually correct. But thats because it's art. If you tried to look at it to figure out how many windows in the buildingor what kind of stone it is made of, you would be disapointed. It conveys something much more intangible then the image below which is a digital image of a sunset. Nice. Accurate in every detail, including stuff not visible to the human eye. But where is the feeling?


sunset.jpg



Once you can accept that the bible is a work of art, the work of many artists, and not a factual-historically accurate-scientifically correct textbook, then you have arrived at the next level.

Who cares about how many windows in the building or what kind of stone it is made of. If thats what you are looking for, your missing the whole point of the painting.

The digital image is just a bunch of pixels, but the painting is so much more then a bunch of brush strokes. It shows something no camera can capture.

If you insist on a literal interpretation of the bible, not only will you be stymied to find that Gideon's army of 300 was actually ony 298, but you may as well try to find Jesus' message with an MRI scanner.

p.s. thanks for the kind words!
 
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alexeeah

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I believe that the bible is infallible i even believe that the earth is millions of years old. I also believe ina race of men that came before adam........why would God say replenish the earth to adam and eve? And how can christians say that the earth is only 6000 years old when science has proved otherwise? God mad men and they did wrong, God flooded the earth, then God recreated the earth and then he created adam and eve. So the last 6000 years have been since creation of genisis but before that was another time. Even the dinosaurs were told of in the bible......not alot more tosay ifyouwant to discuss why i believe this the pm me
 
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alexeeah

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Once you can accept that the bible is a work of art.....is that what you just said???



If you only think of the bible as a work of art then how can we be christians??? That is just plain stupid..........or a doctrine of devils...the bible is the word of God living and powerful and sharper than any two edged sword..........
 
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Late_Cretaceous said:
I think you missed my point entirely.
Then you should clarify. He did not call YOU stupid, but the idea that the Bible is merely a work of art is a bit much. There are dangers is being too literal and too figurative. We must earnestly search for God's meaning, as it says in His word. "you will search for Me and you will find Me, when you seek Me with all of your heart."
 
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Late_Cretaceous

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I never said, nor implied, "merely". Quite the opposite in fact. What I am trying to say is that a piece of art can convey much more - and at more levels - then a dry data fact-sheet. I say the bible is a great work of art, and not a mere recounting of events.

Is that not clear?

If someone insists that everything in the bible is 100% factually correct, or infallible, then what happens when one insignificant piece of informaton turns out to be wrong? Does one's entire faith crumble.
 
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Underdog77

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Dracil said:
I say the question doesn't make sense, and it can very well be both.
Maybe I didn't word that very well. What I meant was is the Bible wholly and completely correct (no mistakes at all) or are there mistakes that modern day men (us) need correct ourselves when reading the Bible.

Can we accept the Bible as it is as truth?
 
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Underdog77

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Late_Cretaceous said:
I think the bible is fallible but that God is infallible.

Many argue that the bible is divinely inspired, but I personally do not agree with that. Even so, devine inspiration is not the same as raw dictation. The Qu'ran is believed by muslims to have been dictated. I have never encounted a christian who thinks the bible is the product of dictation. Think of it this way, an artist can see a sunset and be inspired to paint it - it could turn out to be an impressionist "modern art" painting that does not look much like reality, but is itself beautiful.

Most of the stories from the old testament were passed on through generations as oral traditions long before they were written down. The stories are rich in symbolism, imagery and double meanings (which dont always come through in translations)


The old testament is a combination of real history, myths and legends. Nothing wrong with that. Its more of a cultural traditon then a scientific or scholarly document.

The new testament is based on a handful of letters. The gospels are written in the names of apostles (or companions of apostles), but no scholar believes that they really came from the hand of Jesus' deciples.

The letters that came to make up the new testament were mostly written in the decades after Jesus died - up to a century later. Imagine writting today about events of the first world war without the benifit of any documentation or pictures - only the words of eye witnesses.

In the roman empire during those early days of christianity very very few people could read. Especially from the populace that converted to christianity. Those documents were written in Greek and without the benifit of spell checkers, printers, word processer and - get this - no spaces between words.

Imaginetryingtoreadanentiredocumentwrittenlikethissentance. (and then imagine trying to copy it by hand with a primitive pen by candlelight)

Paper was rare in those days. Scribes were even rarer The inks available didnt exactly contrast well against the background either. Sometimes documents were transcribed from Greek to Coptic to Latin bye people who may not have been totally fluent in those languages.

One document, written by a scribe contains 30 lines that were repeated. Apparently he didnt notice this. Maybe he was tired. Nevertheless, those 30 lines have more then 30 mistakes in them (differnces from one set to the other).

How many copies of Acts existed in the first centuries? A dozen, maybe. There were no photocopiers. These were rare manusripts even back then.
And no two were alike. IN additon to mistakes scirbes could insert stories from other manuscripts, or even make their own additons or deletions. There were forgeries too.

IN spite of this, however, the message of Jesus still rings through. Through all the mistakes and misdeeds of ancient scribes.

In my opinion, the bible should not be taken as word for word accurate. But the message still shines through. Just like the sunset in an impressionist paining.
While I have no strong answer to all you said, my obvious question is how can we trust the Bible at all? I consider myself to be a devout Christian, but as I read your post I grew curious. If all you say is true (and right now I'm taking the time to verify it) than I truly question how much of the Bible I can believe. No kidding. So many mistakes leads one to question whether the Bible can used to find theological answers.
 
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Underdog77

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ShilohCity said:
i believe the bible to be infallible. I choose to accept what God has preserved for us and not to rely on changing scientific ideas or to pervert the word to fit my own assumptions and ideas.
While this is just a little off topic (I intended for this thread to be almost purely theoogical), I agree with you. Science has always been a known, fallible source. What may be true today may be disproved tomarrow. There are some things that we 'know' for sure but there are many things we are unsure of and we must remember that science is fallible, has been shown to be so in the past, and is always changing.

This is the purpose of this thread; to see if there is an infallible source of knowledge. I believe the Bible is infallible and that it claims to be so. But I'm here to hear other views.
How was it Satan first tempted Eve? "Did God really say...?"
EXCELLANT :clap: !!!
 
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Late_Cretaceous

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Is the bible a work of art. Apparently, I am not alone with this "stupid idea" .


"Because this Bible is a work of art, contact with it provides an entry into the history of religious art and can be powerful stimulus to the contemporary religious imagination." Br. Dietrich Reinhart, OSB, President of Saint Johns University

"The bible is a work of art, it is also a series of books about the art of work." Jim Lewis , Episcopal priest

"A Chinese government official was looking for ways in which students from his country could get creative training in the West. Upon selecting a potential school, he was told that study of the bible was a part of the curriculum. He responded, “Chinese students need to study the Bible. The Bible is a work of art.” Although not acknowledging the truth of God’s word, this official recognized truth about the Bible. God’s revelation of himself is full of stories, parables, metaphors, allegories, songs and poetry. Because God is an Artist, He communicates truth in creative ways. The bible truly is a work of art!" Dr. Colin Harbinson, Dean of the Arts at Belhaven College

"The Bible is a work of art that not only has survived over the centuries but has inspired artists in every generation since it came into being.” Let me give you three examples of human creativity that we find in the Bible: ..." Steve Turner, author.

Do these guys, or their ideas sound stupid?

I do think that I was called stupid. If you don't like my arguement then tear it apart piece by piece. Show the flaws in my logic.


If I were to sayto a biblical literalist that "insisting on a literal interpretation of the bible is stupid", then I imagine that the moderators would be allover me with stern warnings to follow the rules and be civil. And rightly so. However, the rules do not seem to be enforced equally around here.
 
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Late_Cretaceous

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Underdog, let me put it this way.

Lets say a group of people were stranded on an island with no bible, and survived there for generations.

Or lets say that every single copy of scripture in the world was destroyed.

Or a missionary on journeys into the deep jungle to preach to the natives, but loses his bible on the way.

Would the word of God not exist for people in these situations. Is all hope gone for them. Can they never get to know Jesus spiritually just because they don't have it on paper.

Remember, for the first christians, it wasn't on paper in many cases. Or if it was, it was a single copy residing with the bishop of the church. And different churches had different gospels - ones that were rejected from the canon when the new testament was put together over 400 years after Jesus's ministry.

A facinating read on early christianity are Bart D. Ehrman's "Lost Christianities" and "Lost Scriptures".
gthom.jpg


This is an example fo how the first scriptures looked. No pristine white flawless paper reproducing thousands of identical copies in a laser printer. Bumpy, uneven in texture and color, with traces of sticky resin. And the writing, no punctuation even. A single copy of a single book would take weeks to make. Painstaking work, imagine the writers cramp. Then it may be shipped from Alexandria to Antioch or Rome to be reproduced again. It took a few generations for people to trust the written word back when they had the spoken word of eyewitness (or people who actually were in personal contact with eyewitnesses to Jesus's ministry). Literacy in the Roman Empire is beleived to have been less then 15% according to Erhman. They had oral traditons, that's what they trusted back then.




fivegospels.gif
 
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