Is TCL, or CF, Unionistic?

[ricg]

The thread on "swimming" got me thinking about whether confessional Lutherans should be tossed together with quantenus subscribers, whom the Confessions themselves condemn, on CF? Isn't this a false witness of our belief of what is required for unity? Even this subforum is described as merely being for "more conservative" Lutherans. Shouldn't it be made clear to the public that apostolic church requires complete doctrinal agreement, and that other groups cannot be recognized as belonging thereto unless and until they teach God's Word only. Maybe we shouldn't even have a forum - separate or not - on CF at all, since it makes us appear as just one of many other choices in a heterodox cafeteria? Anybody else thought about these issues?

 

[dinkime]

it could probably be worded differently (like most things on-line), but the more conservative groups that come to the subforum are not in total agreement on everything or they would be in fellowship with communion/worship/etc.

however, i do not think that coming here to discuss various things is against what confessional church bodies mean when they talk about fellowship and doctrinal agreement. if that were the case, you would only be able to socialize in any manner with people of your church -- i.e. no going to the grocery store because the checker may not be in fellowship with your church and you are going to be talking with her --

if the forums are harming you theologically, then do not come.

 

[seajoy]

Becky is right...we don't live in a bubble.
Folks can come here, and read our beliefs.
That is a good thing.

 

[ricg]

I understand what you're saying, but that is a different issue. I agree that there's no issue with merely having a conversation, including in a discussion group, about theology. That should be encouraged as following the Great Commission.

The issue is one of witness and comes in the form of indiscriminately naming the forum "Lutheran," and then presenting non-Lutheran ideas as if they were Lutheran or could come under the big tent of something loosely called the Lutheranism tradition. The problem I see is that the point of the Confessions is to delimit what belongs in apostolic church, which Lutherans in those very same Confessions have said is a matter of right teaching. When we share a forum with folks who have abandoned the idea that the Confessions set the baseline for what is the teaching of apostolic church, we publicly abandon that standard as well. What I'm saying is, by having a common forum with them, we are saying that fidelity to right teaching is not essential for unity, which itself contradicts our teaching.

In short, quantenus Lutherans are not Lutherans, and quia Lutherans who share a forum with quantenus Lutherans are not making that point crystal clear, and are not abiding with God's will that His Word not be mixed with the teachings of man.

Now, I may not have considered everything, but it seems to me, to be true to ourselves, we ought to consider:

1. asking for our own forum, where we make clear (perhaps in a "sticky") the Confessional Lutheran idea of what the apostolic church is on the one hand, and what a heterodox church is on the other, and that we cannot share a forum with those who do not promise to uphold the apostles' doctrine (as set forth in the BOC, and ultimately, the Bible).

2. perhaps even that is insufficient. Perhaps it is necessary to have no Confessional Lutheran forum on CF, because those who do not visit it will only see another menu choice rather than the apostolic church. Maybe the solution is to ask that TCL forum be called the ELCA or quantenus Lutheran forum (though that seems impractical) and that we all use the space under our messages to explain that we cannot have our own forum on CF and include a link to a Confessional Lutheran site like CF but dedicated exclusively to Confessional teachings.

As a member of the LCMS, I realize that the WELS, ELS and others believe they can have no fellowship with me. A common forum might be a problem for them, but it isn't for me, since it is they, not the LCMS that refused fellowship. To the extent that the LCMS is itself heterdox either because of false fellowship principles or bad praxis is a related but separate issue that publically concerns only those outside the LCMS (though it privately should concern every Christian within the LCMS). Thus, as far as sharing a public internet forum is concerned, that is really only an issue for Confessional Lutherans outside the LCMS.

 

[DaRev]

I understand what you're saying, but that is a different issue. I agree that there's no issue with merely having a conversation, including in a discussion group, about theology. That should be encouraged as following the Great Commission.

The issue is one of witness and comes in the form of indiscriminately naming the forum "Lutheran," and then presenting non-Lutheran ideas as if they were Lutheran or could come under the big tent of something loosely called the Lutheranism tradition. The problem I see is that the point of the Confessions is to delimit what belongs in apostolic church, which Lutherans in those very same Confessions have said is a matter of right teaching. When we share a forum with folks who have abandoned the idea that the Confessions set the baseline for what is the teaching of apostolic church, we publicly abandon that standard as well. What I'm saying is, by having a common forum with them, we are saying that fidelity to right teaching is not essential for unity, which itself contradicts our teaching.

In short, quantenus Lutherans are not Lutherans, and quia Lutherans who share a forum with quantenus Lutherans are not making that point crystal clear, and are not abiding with God's will that His Word not be mixed with the teachings of man.

Now, I may not have considered everything, but it seems to me, to be true to ourselves, we ought to consider:

1. asking for our own forum, where we make clear (perhaps in a "sticky") the Confessional Lutheran idea of what the apostolic church is on the one hand, and what a heterodox church is on the other, and that we cannot share a forum with those who do not promise to uphold the apostles' doctrine (as set forth in the BOC, and ultimately, the Bible).

2. perhaps even that is insufficient. Perhaps it is necessary to have no Confessional Lutheran forum on CF, because those who do not visit it will only see another menu choice rather than the apostolic church. Maybe the solution is to ask that TCL forum be called the ELCA or quantenus Lutheran forum (though that seems impractical) and that we all use the space under our messages to explain that we cannot have our own forum on CF and include a link to a Confessional Lutheran site like CF but dedicated exclusively to Confessional teachings.

As a member of the LCMS, I realize that the WELS, ELS and others believe they can have no fellowship with me. A common forum might be a problem for them, but it isn't for me, since it is they, not the LCMS that refused fellowship. To the extent that the LCMS is itself heterdox either because of false fellowship principles or bad praxis is a related but separate issue that publically concerns only those outside the LCMS (though it privately should concern every Christian within the LCMS). Thus, as far as sharing a public internet forum is concerned, that is really only an issue for Confessional Lutherans outside the LCMS.

Remember, though, that we were successful in having the word "Confessional" removed from the forum name for that very reason.

What I have a problem with is the use of the name "Lutheran." There is a very narrow definition of what the term "Lutheran" refers to, that being Confessional, Scriptural, and traditional conservative teaching and practice of the one holy catholic and apostolic Church. However, there are others who use the word "Lutheran" in their name, but are no where close to being "Lutheran" in their practice and teaching.
Perhaps the issue should be whether or not we should continue to use the word "Lutheran" as a descriptive title. I know that I, myself, am sick and tired of having to constantly defend the LCMS and other Confessional Lutheran church bodies against the heresies of the ELCA teachings and practices. The name "Lutheran" doesn't really mean what it used to anymore. Since most people only associate the term "Lutheran" with pro-homosexual, pro-abortion, pro-unionistic ideas and beliefs, let the ELCA have it.

I truly think that the LCMS should explore changing its name to reflect what we hold, teach, and confess, because the word "Lutheran" just doesn't cut it anymore.

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

We tried to do exactly that ricg back a few months ago. We wanted better designations for sub forums for the differances in the "Lutherans". As DaRev said all we did we loose the "confessional" connotation.

Unfortunately I think it should stay the way it is now because there is contradictions even in the confessional confessing synods/groups. Some groups aren't really confessional even though they say they are.

 

[Anoetos]

Remember, though, that we were successful in having the word "Confessional" removed from the forum name for that very reason.

What I have a problem with is the use of the name "Lutheran." There is a very narrow definition of what the term "Lutheran" refers to, that being Confessional, Scriptural, and traditional conservative teaching and practice of the one holy catholic and apostolic Church. However, there are others who use the word "Lutheran" in their name, but are no where close to being "Lutheran" in their practice and teaching.
Perhaps the issue should be whether or not we should continue to use the word "Lutheran" as a descriptive title. I know that I, myself, am sick and tired of having to constantly defend the LCMS and other Confessional Lutheran church bodies against the heresies of the ELCA teachings and practices. The name "Lutheran" doesn't really mean what it used to anymore. Since most people only associate the term "Lutheran" with pro-homosexual, pro-abortion, pro-unionistic ideas and beliefs, let the ELCA have it.

I truly think that the LCMS should explore changing its name to reflect what we hold, teach, and confess, because the word "Lutheran" just doesn't cut it anymore.

Pretty Radical...

I have a hard time just handing over words.

We've lost "evangelical"; probably forever to the hand-waving starbucks church crowd.

Are we going to hand "Lutheran" over to the liberals?

What will we be left with?

Augustana?

 

[DaSeminarian]

Remember, though, that we were successful in having the word "Confessional" removed from the forum name for that very reason.

What is so bad about this is that the ELCA had no trouble with this suggestion. They often will claim that they are confessional as we in the LCMS do, but we do not see them as staying true to the confessions. This tells me that the ELCA folks here have truly given the confessions up for a more synergistic God.

What I have a problem with is the use of the name "Lutheran." There is a very narrow definition of what the term "Lutheran" refers to, that being Confessional, Scriptural, and traditional conservative teaching and practice of the one holy catholic and apostolic Church. However, there are others who use the word "Lutheran" in their name, but are no where close to being "Lutheran" in their practice and teaching.
Perhaps the issue should be whether or not we should continue to use the word "Lutheran" as a descriptive title. I know that I, myself, am sick and tired of having to constantly defend the LCMS and other Confessional Lutheran church bodies against the heresies of the ELCA teachings and practices. The name "Lutheran" doesn't really mean what it used to anymore. Since most people only associate the term "Lutheran" with pro-homosexual, pro-abortion, pro-unionistic ideas and beliefs, let the ELCA have it.

I truly think that the LCMS should explore changing its name to reflect what we hold, teach, and confess, because the word "Lutheran" just doesn't cut it anymore.

When you come up with a legitimate idea please let me know and I will poll my brothers at CTS with the idea and see where it gets us.

Luther1521