Is spiritual rest superior to physical rest?

[DamianWarS]

Or put another way is physical rest inferior to spiritual rest.

Holistic health is important and I'm not trying to say the body doesn't need physical rest or that routine physical rest is not a healthy focus. Physical rest is important but my question is if spiritual rest is of greater importance?

Given a choice would you deny spiritual rest with the reward of physical rest, or would you deny physical rest with the reward of spiritual rest?

Spiritual rest is salvation through Christ and denying that rest is tantamount to denying Chirst. So put another way would you deny Christ (spiritual rest) with the reward of your life (physical rest) or would you deny your life with the reward of Christ?

what does this show us about the role of spiritual rest and physical rest? Which is better to seek? Which is better to show our neighbour while at the cost of the other rest?

 

[Gary K]

Or put another way is physical rest inferior to spiritual rest.

Holistic health is important and I'm not trying to say the body doesn't need physical rest or that routine physical rest is not a healthy focus. Physical rest is important but my question is if spiritual rest is of greater importance?

Given a choice would you deny spiritual rest with the reward of physical rest, or would you deny physical rest with the reward of spiritual rest?

Spiritual rest is salvation through Christ and denying that rest is tantamount to denying Chirst. So put another way would you deny Christ (spiritual rest) with the reward of your life (physical rest) or would you deny your life with the reward of Christ?

what does this show us about the role of spiritual rest and physical rest? Which is better to seek? Which is better to show our neighbour while at the cost of the other rest?

That's a logical fallacy as it's an either or proposition which ignores the third option which is one can have physical rest and spiritual rest at the same time. One does not exclude the other. They are not at opposite ends of the same spectrum.

That's the logical argument. Now comes the spiritual argument. Keeping the Sabbath holy is a very impressive spiritual rest. I know because I keep the Sabbath. When the Holy Spirit joins us on the Sabbath in a way He doesn't normally do on the rest of the days of the week the experience is warm and very comforting. It happens from sundown Friday night to sundown Sabbath evening and beyond, as long as we keep the Sabbath attitude with us. If a person has never truly kept the Sabbath from the motivation of love for God they've never experienced that blessing.

 

[Leaf473]

Or put another way is physical rest inferior to spiritual rest.

Holistic health is important and I'm not trying to say the body doesn't need physical rest or that routine physical rest is not a healthy focus. Physical rest is important but my question is if spiritual rest is of greater importance?

Given a choice would you deny spiritual rest with the reward of physical rest, or would you deny physical rest with the reward of spiritual rest?

Spiritual rest is salvation through Christ and denying that rest is tantamount to denying Chirst. So put another way would you deny Christ (spiritual rest) with the reward of your life (physical rest) or would you deny your life with the reward of Christ?

what does this show us about the role of spiritual rest and physical rest? Which is better to seek? Which is better to show our neighbour while at the cost of the other rest?

"Is spiritual rest superior to physical rest?" Yes,

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 116:7 - New American Standard Bible

Return to your rest, my soul, For the LORD has dealt generously with you.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[DamianWarS]

That's a logical fallacy as it's an either or proposition which ignores the third option which is one can have physical rest and spiritual rest at the same time. One does not exclude the other. They are not at opposite ends of the same spectrum.

Are you saying spiritual rest is contingent upon physical rest?

Let's hash out the logic. May we have spiritual rest while in physical distress? May we have physical rest while in spiritual distress?

A man holds a gun to your head and says to renounce Christ or die. You are given a choice to sacrafice the physical in favour of the spiritual, or sacrafice the spiritual in favour of the physical but you can't have both at the same time. Which is the better focus?

Can we agree that while spiritual rest and physical rest are healthy to pair together they are not mutually inclusive.

 

[Gary K]

Are you saying spiritual rest is contingent upon physical rest?

Let's hash out the logic. May we have spiritual rest while in physical distress? May we have physical rest while in spiritual distress?

A man holds a gun to your head and says to renounce Christ or die. You are given a choice to sacrafice the physical in favour of the spiritual, or sacrafice the spiritual in favour of the physical but you can't have both at the same time. Which is the better focus?

Can we agree that while spiritual rest and physical rest are healthy to pair together they are not mutually inclusive.

God gave us health laws so that we can have healthy bodies which improves our spirituality. I've slept soundly for decades while not right with God.

In a life or death situation I will choose to follow Jesus no matter what. I see death as a sleep so the next thing I will know is the second coming. I don't see that as sacrificing anything other than the pain and heartache of life on a sinful planet.

No. I do not agree that spiritual and physical rest are exclusive of each other.

 

[honey badger]

first the natural then the spiritual .... an elder that serves the younger ...

 

[Gary K]

first the natural then the spiritual .... an elder that serves the younger ...

I don't think I understand your comment. I assume you mean that our spiritual life is dependent on our physical life. Where would you come up with that out of the Bible?

 

[honey badger]

I don't think I understand your comment. I assume you mean that our spiritual life is dependent on our physical life. Where would you come up with that out of the Bible?

The first man was made of dust from the earth, the second man from heaven.

 

[DamianWarS]

God gave us health laws so that we can have healthy bodies which improves our spirituality. I've slept soundly for decades while not right with God.

In a life or death situation I will choose to follow Jesus no matter what. I see death as a sleep so the next thing I will know is the second coming. I don't see that as sacrificing anything other than the pain and heartache of life on a sinful planet.

No. I do not agree that spiritual and physical rest are exclusive of each other.

Isn't it your position that Sabbath is moral law? Is it now a health law too? Or is it both? Are you saying all "health" laws are mandatory? By what measure do you call a law a health law and who told you they are required under the new covenant?

In terms of the physical/spiritual scenerio, you're a smart person and can figure out that surely there is a moment where there is a choice of the spiritual or the physical but not both so which do we favour?

Rather than the risk of death what about the risk of slave labour or denounce Christ? Do you choose denouncing Christ so you may have the freedom to rest or do you sacrafice rest so you may have the freedom of Christ?

scripture states "But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes, we are healed." (Is 53:5). This focus is on suffering, not a sleepless state of death. And a great measure of physical suffering was achieved before death yet the product of this physical anti-rest birthed spiritual rest. Christ himself said while still in this suffering "it is finished" then breath his last.

I can appreciate that routine health is healthy for mind, body and soul but that's not the question so let's not reduce it to that. When the two clash which is our focus?

Of course this is someone retoric and the answer is the spiritual but why is it ok to forsake the physical to give way for the spiritual? If this works at the macro levels in things like suffering then does it also work in the micro levels in things that we we do every day. May we sacrafice physical rest to focus on spiritual rest (in that I mean showing others Christ indescrimitely through word and action)

 

[Gary K]

The first man was made of dust from the earth, the second man from heaven.

OK.. Thanks.

 

[Gary K]

Isn't it your position that Sabbath is moral law? Is it now a health law too? Or is it both? Are you saying all "health" laws are mandatory? By what measure do you call a law a health law and who told you they are required under the new covenant?

In terms of the physical/spiritual scenerio, you're a smart person and can figure out that surely there is a moment where there is a choice of the spiritual or the physical but not both so which do we favour?

Rather than the risk of death what about the risk of slave labour or denounce Christ? Do you choose denouncing Christ so you may have the freedom to rest or do you sacrafice rest so you may have the freedom of Christ?

scripture states "But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes, we are healed." (Is 53:5). This focus is on suffering, not a sleepless state of death. And a great measure of physical suffering was achieved before death yet the product of this physical anti-rest birthed spiritual rest. Christ himself said while still in this suffering "it is finished" then breath his last.

I can appreciate that routine health is healthy for mind, body and soul but that's not the question so let's not reduce it to that. When the two clash which is our focus?

Of course this is someone retoric and the answer is the spiritual but why is it ok to forsake the physical to give way for the spiritual? If this works at the macro levels in things like suffering then does it also work in the micro levels in things that we we do every day. May we sacrafice physical rest to focus on spiritual rest (in that I mean showing others Christ indescrimitely through word and action)

It seems to me we've been over this before,

I believe the Sabbath is a moral lawbecause God placed it in a set of moral commands. No he Sabbath is not a health law but the health laws are still in effect because we are what we eat. thus our health affects our ability to understand spiritual concepts.

I answered your next question already. It's always Jesus first humanity second, but you already know all of that from previous discussions. I don't see any reason to discuss it further.

WSo the fundamental reason for the health laws is not applicable? Sorry I disagree with that. It's the entire reason for them. They weren't given so people could argue about them.

On occasion we can sacrifice physical rest but not long term. Jesus often took His disciples apart for physical rest.

I really don't see any reason for this as you already knew all of this. It looks to me like an excuse to me as an excuse to argue. If it is be sure I will not answer you.

 

[DamianWarS]

I believe the Sabbath is a moral lawbecause God placed it in a set of moral commands. No he Sabbath is not a health law but the health laws are still in effect because we are what we eat. thus our health affects our ability to understand spiritual concepts.

WSo the fundamental reason for the health laws is not applicable? Sorry I disagree with that. It's the entire reason for them. They weren't given so people could argue about them.

First off you need to establish why you have sanctioned off laws and called them health laws that have primary health goals before you establish if they are applicable or not while all of this being biblically supported.

This is part of the problem when we cut up law like this, we tend to focus on the extra-biblically labels we gave them over what their actual purpose is.

For example with dietary laws was their primary goal to keep the Hebrews healthy or was the primary goal to establish a system of God's outpouring first to the Jews then to all people as Peter's dream in Act 10 reveals? Only one has biblical revelation, so although the health benefit may be value it is not what the bible chooses the highlight.

But when we just call it a "health law" all we see is the health parts and miss the rest, but the law is actually far deeper than the surface label "heath" can take it. If I were to label it anything use biblical terms like clean and unclean since their meaning carries a depth to it "health" cannot but don't separate law, that's not how it's meant to be read.

There is a fundamental danger in doing this as these divisions are not biblically revealed and adding these labels or divisions, then applying doctrine hinged on the label is tandamount to adding to scriptue. Without the biblical support I can't in good faith endorse such actions.

I answered your next question already. It's always Jesus first humanity second, but you already know all of that from previous discussions. I don't see any reason to discuss it further.

On occasion we can sacrifice physical rest but not long term. Jesus often took His disciples apart for physical rest.

My goal is to discovery the purpose behind the Sabbath and how the law of the old covenant relates to the new covenant which can be a discussion of how the physical relates to the spiritual in terms of laws and their products.

I understand as humans we have physical demands and require rest but our humans demands are not my point. In an old covenant context rest is a requirement of the 4th commandment and other mirrored laws and it's focus is on the physical.

Since we know Sabbath extends to spiritual rest let's explore the 4th commandment in a spiritual response. in a spiritual context some questions that come up is what is rest? What is work? How is the rest/work dicotomy translated? How to we keep the rest? What is our responsibly to ensure others in our care receive that rest too?

Are these spiritual components more vital than their physical counterparts? Can we still have the spiritual product without the physical? (not general rest, but as regulated by the 4th commandment). What is the continued role of the physical to the spiritual?

It seems to me we've been over this before,

I really don't see any reason for this as you already knew all of this. It looks to me like an excuse to me as an excuse to argue. If it is be sure I will not answer you.

This thread is a topic of my interest, it seems similar as other threads because it is a subject I'm invested in and wish to learn more through discussion using different angles and perspective.

It's not targeted at you personally nor am I trying to uniquely clash with your perspective, although you are welcome to still share it. However the main goal is still discussion based and being able to learn through those with varying perspectives such as yourself rather than echo chambers.

If you don't feel you can add anymore you are free to bow out at any time otherwise I welcome your engagement and hope we can sharpen each other.

 

[Gary K]

First off you need to establish why you have sanctioned off laws and called them health laws that have primary health goals before you establish if they are applicable or not while all of this being biblically supported.

This is part of the problem when we cut up law like this, we tend to focus on the extra-biblically labels we gave them over what their actual purpose is.

For example with dietary laws was their primary goal to keep the Hebrews healthy or was the primary goal to establish a system of God's outpouring first to the Jews then to all people as Peter's dream in Act 10 reveals? Only one has biblical revelation, so although the health benefit may be value it is not what the bible chooses the highlight.

But when we just call it a "health law" all we see is the health parts and miss the rest, but the law is actually far deeper than the surface label "heath" can take it. If I were to label it anything use biblical terms like clean and unclean since their meaning carries a depth to it "health" cannot but don't separate law, that's not how it's meant to be read.

There is a fundamental danger in doing this as these divisions are not biblically revealed and adding these labels or divisions, then applying doctrine hinged on the label is tandamount to adding to scriptue. Without the biblical support I can't in good faith endorse such actions.




My goal is to discovery the purpose behind the Sabbath and how the law of the old covenant relates to the new covenant which can be a discussion of how the physical relates to the spiritual in terms of laws and their products.

I understand as humans we have physical demands and require rest but our humans demands are not my point. In an old covenant context rest is a requirement of the 4th commandment and other mirrored laws and it's focus is on the physical.

Since we know Sabbath extends to spiritual rest let's explore the 4th commandment in a spiritual response. in a spiritual context some questions that come up is what is rest? What is work? How is the rest/work dicotomy translated? How to we keep the rest? What is our responsibly to ensure others in our care receive that rest too?

Are these spiritual components more vital than their physical counterparts? Can we still have the spiritual product without the physical? (not general rest, but as regulated by the 4th commandment). What is the continued role of the physical to the spiritual?



This thread is a topic of my interest, it seems similar as other threads because it is a subject I'm invested in and wish to learn more through discussion using different angles and perspective.

It's not targeted at you personally nor am I trying to uniquely clash with your perspective, although you are welcome to still share it. However the main goal is still discussion based and being able to learn through those with varying perspectives such as yourself rather than echo chambers.

If you don't feel you can add anymore you are free to bow out at any time otherwise I welcome your engagement and hope we can sharpen each other.

There is no danger in applying health laws to anyone who loves God, or even to those who don't love God. Being healthier is never a bad thing and neither is it harmful spiritually. As being healthy is an integral part of spirituality we need to follow those laws so we can truly understand spiritual concepts.

The fourth commandment is not not focused on physical rest. That's a belief of yours that I do not share.

Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Heb 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

The Israelites died in the wilderness from unbelief. In other words from a lack of faith in God's word. Faith is required to please God and faith is required to obey God.

 

[Leaf473]

in a spiritual context some questions that come up is what is rest? What is work?

For anyone who's interested, I see work in a spiritual sense as working to attempt to gain righteousness.

Spiritual rest is the opposite, and it gets deep into our souls.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 11:29 - New American Standard Bible

Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[DamianWarS]

There is no danger in applying health laws to anyone who loves God, or even to those who don't love God. Being healthier is never a bad thing and neither is it harmful spiritually. As being healthy is an integral part of spirituality we need to follow those laws so we can truly understand spiritual concepts.

I think you've misunderstood my point. The danger is making up lables to divide law, then developing doctrines hinged on those lables. There is no such reference to "health laws" in the bible. I'm curious how did you come by this term and by extension this list?

The fourth commandment is not not focused on physical rest. That's a belief of yours that I do not share.

I absolutely agree, the 4th commandment has a deeper meaning of spiritual rest that is superior to it's physical counterparts where the later testifies to the former.

The Israelites died in the wilderness from unbelief. In other words from a lack of faith in God's word. Faith is required to please God and faith is required to obey God.

Sure, but I'm having trouble applying this to the OP, could you unpack this more?

 

[Gary K]

I think you've misunderstood my point. The danger is making up lables to divide law, then developing doctrines hinged on those lables. There is no such reference to "health laws" in the bible. I'm curious how did you come by this term and by extension this list?



I absolutely agree, the 4th commandment has a deeper meaning of spiritual rest that is superior to it's physical counterparts where the later testifies to the former.


Sure, but I'm having trouble applying this to the OP, could you unpack this more?

Uhmmm. The Bible.

I have to chuckle at your last question. You want me to relate it clear back to the OP? Why? I have no intention of doing as you request as my comment is apropos to the rest of my post and to where this thread has gone.

 

[DamianWarS]

Uhmmm. The Bible.

Ok, where are these "health law" labels found in the bible?

I have to chuckle at your last question. You want me to relate it clear back to the OP? Why? I have no intention of doing as you request as my comment is apropos to the rest of my post and to where this thread has gone.

Then do me the honor of explaining yourself more, I'm not certain what point you are establishing. We are all of faith here so a statement saying faith is required to please God is implied simply from participation in this thread.

 

[Gary K]

Ok, where are these "health law" labels found in the bible?

Then do me the honor of explaining yourself more, I'm not certain what point you are establishing. We are all of faith here so a statement saying faith is required to please God is implied simply from participation in this thread.

Leviticus 11: 1 - 30

 

[DamianWarS]

Leviticus 11: 1 - 30

you've just given me a list of clean and unclean animals. There is no health focus in that text and certainly no label calling it "health laws". We can certainly interpret the text in a health vacuum but the text itself does not reveal itself as having a health goal. The goal is more driven by the terms clean and unclean which is a far deeper concept than mere physical health.

These are the inherent dangers of reducing a grouping of laws to an interpreted post-biblical label because as you have demonstrated a bias is applied to the text by these post-biblical additions. You have applied a "health" bias to this text and presented it to me like it's a mic drop argument yet failed to show me a single health focus in the text.

I know in SDA circles these concepts are unchallenged, but we are not in SDA circles and I'm challenging this label you've superimposed over the text because it is not biblically endorsed the way you are presenting it. Peter's dream itself shows us God is the one who calls something clean or unclean. I recognize SDA doctrines throw out this idea that Peter's dream should be universally applied but the thing with the dream is it reveals to us that dietary laws are not actually about food at all, they are about dispensations of the outpouring of God's spirit. The dietary laws are then a physical analog or as you put it "object lessons" for the focus of the outpouring of God's spirit that also has physical benefits. But their purpose is driven by the outpouring of the holy spirit, the "health" aspect is a beneficial physical product of the physical focus but not a competing goal to the spiritual but rather a inferior goal to the spiritual and the spiritual a superior goal.

So for example, if my non-christian neighbor invited me over for a meal and served pork chops it is better to receive the food thankfully than it is to reject it even if done discretely because our goal should be about showing our neighbor Christ and not about to eat pork or not to eat pork which is an amoral issue regardless of various pork antidotes. Pork may or may not be healthy but that really is not the point at all.

Perhaps you're thinking I'm a pig-eating Sabbath-breaking heathen, but that would be incorrect. In practice, I keep the Sabbath and I don't eat pork because my neighbors are all very religious (they are all Muslim) and it is of vital importance that God is a part of you're every deed and action. (in my context my neighbors are not just those to the right and left of me, I'm speaking of about 50 families) If I ate pork my neighbors would distance themselves from me which would be counter-gospel, and if I did not value a day reserved for God my neighbors would be confused and think I do not honor God. So I keep these things, not so I keep a law, but so I have the opportunity to unpack their meaning each time I'm asked (and I'm asked lots).

It's illegal to proselytize where I live, but when I am asked if I set aside a day for God or if I eat pork, I take those opportunities to unpack the gospel using those points as a segue in a sharing method over more aggressive approaches which would be seen as proselytizing. Since I'm not the one who changes hearts, God is, I release it to God and let him do the stirring up, which is often a very agreeable position amoung Muslims or "inshallah" (if God wills it). It's a delicate approach of answering questions by asking questions in return directing conversations to a gospel goal that is received over rejected. They are my mission so this is my "all things to all people" method that I carry but if I don't practice things like the Sabbath or not eating pork I would lose my credibility and it would be wasted. My goal is not to be a slave to the law, it is to be a slave to my mission, I hang on to these things to the point that they serve my mission, but when they cannot do that, they are quickly dropped. I actually don't keep biblical dietary laws, I keep more Quranic ones but again my goal is not law-driven, it is mission-driven so that I may welcome Muslims in my home and be welcomed in others' homes because the spiritual goal out weighs the physical goal.

 

[Gary K]

you've just given me a list of clean and unclean animals. There is no health focus in that text and certainly no label calling it "health laws". We can certainly interpret the text in a health vacuum but the text itself does not reveal itself as having a health goal. The goal is more driven by the terms clean and unclean which is a far deeper concept than mere physical health.

These are the inherent dangers of reducing a grouping of laws to an interpreted post-biblical label because as you have demonstrated a bias is applied to the text by these post-biblical additions. You have applied a "health" bias to this text and presented it to me like it's a mic drop argument yet failed to show me a single health focus in the text.

I know in SDA circles these concepts are unchallenged, but we are not in SDA circles and I'm challenging this label you've superimposed over the text because it is not biblically endorsed the way you are presenting it. Peter's dream itself shows us God is the one who calls something clean or unclean. I recognize SDA doctrines throw out this idea that Peter's dream should be universally applied but the thing with the dream is it reveals to us that dietary laws are not actually about food at all, they are about dispensations of the outpouring of God's spirit. The dietary laws are then a physical analog or as you put it "object lessons" for the focus of the outpouring of God's spirit that also has physical benefits. But their purpose is driven by the outpouring of the holy spirit, the "health" aspect is a beneficial physical product of the physical focus but not a competing goal to the spiritual but rather a inferior goal to the spiritual and the spiritual a superior goal.

So for example, if my non-christian neighbor invited me over for a meal and served pork chops it is better to receive the food thankfully than it is to reject it even if done discretely because our goal should be about showing our neighbor Christ and not about to eat pork or not to eat pork which is an amoral issue regardless of various pork antidotes. Pork may or may not be healthy but that really is not the point at all.

Perhaps you're thinking I'm a pig-eating Sabbath-breaking heathen, but that would be incorrect. In practice, I keep the Sabbath and I don't eat pork because my neighbors are all very religious (they are all Muslim) and it is of vital importance that God is a part of you're every deed and action. (in my context my neighbors are not just those to the right and left of me, I'm speaking of about 50 families) If I ate pork my neighbors would distance themselves from me which would be counter-gospel, and if I did not value a day reserved for God my neighbors would be confused and think I do not honor God. So I keep these things, not so I keep a law, but so I have the opportunity to unpack their meaning each time I'm asked (and I'm asked lots).

It's illegal to proselytize where I live, but when I am asked if I set aside a day for God or if I eat pork, I take those opportunities to unpack the gospel using those points as a segue in a sharing method over more aggressive approaches which would be seen as proselytizing. Since I'm not the one who changes hearts, God is, I release it to God and let him do the stirring up, which is often a very agreeable position amoung Muslims or "inshallah" (if God wills it). It's a delicate approach of answering questions by asking questions in return directing conversations to a gospel goal that is received over rejected. They are my mission so this is my "all things to all people" method that I carry but if I don't practice things like the Sabbath or not eating pork I would lose my credibility and it would be wasted. My goal is not to be a slave to the law, it is to be a slave to my mission, I hang on to these things to the point that they serve my mission, but when they cannot do that, they are quickly dropped. I actually don't keep biblical dietary laws, I keep more Quranic ones but again my goal is not law-driven, it is mission-driven so that I may welcome Muslims in my home and be welcomed in others' homes because the spiritual goal out weighs the physical goal.

Swine are very unclean animals and their meat is very diseased. Some of the parasites in them cannot be killed without destroying the meat, I'll stick with God. You do as you please.