Is slavery wrong?

[South Bound]

So you're fine with worshipping a god that promotes an immoral practice...?

No. The Bible forbids worshipping other gods.

 

[biggles53]

No. The Bible forbids worshipping other gods.

Cute....

Your god condones slavery....in fact, it has often commanded that it's chosen people should take slaves...

 

[South Bound]

Cute....

Your god condones slavery....in fact, it has often commanded that it's chosen people should take slaves...

Once again:

1. Slave traders were to be put to death. (Exodus 21:16)

2. Escaped slaves were to be protected from their owners. (Deuteronomy 23:15-16)

3. Slaves harmed over so much as loss of a tooth were to be freed. (Exodus 21:27)

4. All slaves/indentured servants were to be freed every 50 years and all debts pardoned. (Leviticus 25:10) Nor was this just for Israelites, as their Jubile was every 7 years. (Exodus 21:2)

5. Paul wrote the whole book of Philemon urging a slaveowner to free his slave and treat him as a Christian brother, offering to pay anything that was owed by the slave.

6. Dark skin was specifically stated Biblically to be caused by the sun, and the Bible urges not to discriminate based on it. (Song of Solomon 1:5-6)

Now, this is the part where you repeat Exodus 21:20 again and keep claiming it says you can beat slaves, even though you have been shown several times now that it doesn't condone slavery or beating slaves, but merely states that a man should not be charged with murder where no murder occurs.

 

[BL2KTN]

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

 

[South Bound]

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

First of all, "New Living Translation"? Seriously? You couldn't find a real Bible?

Second, indenture.

 

[BL2KTN]

Third, not indentured.

10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
Deu 20:10-15 (NIV)

“When you approach a city to fight against it, you must make an offer of peace. 11 If it accepts your offer of peace and opens its gates to you, all the people found in it will become forced laborers for you and serve you. 12 However, if it does not make peace with you but wages war against you, lay siege to it. 13 When the Lord your God hands it over to you, you must strike down all its males with the sword. 14 But you may take the women, children, animals, and whatever else is in the city—all its spoil—as plunder. You may enjoy the spoil of your enemies that the Lord your God has given you. -- Deu 20:10-15 (HCSB)

 

[South Bound]

Third, not indentured.

10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
Deu 20:10-15 (NIV)

“When you approach a city to fight against it, you must make an offer of peace. 11 If it accepts your offer of peace and opens its gates to you, all the people found in it will become forced laborers for you and serve you. 12 However, if it does not make peace with you but wages war against you, lay siege to it. 13 When the Lord your God hands it over to you, you must strike down all its males with the sword. 14 But you may take the women, children, animals, and whatever else is in the city—all its spoil—as plunder. You may enjoy the spoil of your enemies that the Lord your God has given you. -- Deu 20:10-15 (HCSB)

Actually, it is indenture, as it is consensual and only for a given period of time.

And the NLT is still ridiculous.

 

[BL2KTN]

Actually, it is indenture, as it is consensual and only for a given period of time.

"...all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you..."

Telling people they can either be a slave or die is not a choice. If it is then you would be saying that all African Americans are descended from people who chose to be slaves. I don't think that will go over well.

Furthermore, consensual and "forced laborer" do not align. And forcing someone to be your slave for seven years is still slavery... if prisoners of war taken for plunder were even able to receive freedom at any point.

 

[South Bound]

"...all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you..."

And what sentence came before the ellipsis?

Why didn't you post that part of the verse?

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Who is saying that slavery is not immoral?

Your God doesn't think it to be immoral.

It's funny how to most us flawed creatures, individual rights are sacred and the idea of slavery (owning a person as property) is abhorrent.

But somehow, God doesn't even hint at the practice being wrong.

And some of you suggest that morality was handed down to us by God.... So where'd the idea that slavery is wrong come from?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Actually, it is indenture, as it is consensual and only for a given period of time.

And the NLT is still ridiculous.

Nope, not indenture. Indentured servitude only applied to Jews. Name the version of the Bible you want and I will get the verses that show foreigners could be slaves for life. Not only that the Bible also tells you how to trick your fellow Jew into life long servitude.

And what of your ability to beat your slaves to death, as long as they linger for a couple of days?

 

[RDKirk]

Nope, not indenture. Indentured servitude only applied to Jews. Name the version of the Bible you want and I will get the verses that show foreigners could be slaves for life. Not only that the Bible also tells you how to trick your fellow Jew into life long servitude.

And what of your ability to beat your slaves to death, as long as they linger for a couple of days?

Debating that point of the OT is irrelevant. The Mosaic Law has moral compromises short of God's full moral intentions for His believers. Jesus pointed that out while speaking to people who thought that was as advanced as they needed to be. The NT raises the bar.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Debating that point of the OT is irrelevant. The Mosaic Law has moral compromises short of God's full moral intentions for His believers. Jesus pointed that out while speaking to people who thought that was as advanced as they needed to be. The NT raises the bar.

Not really. it is said several times in the Bible that both God and Jesus are unchanging. And even the New Testament does not speak out openly against slavery. The bar is the same height. And your Bible ran into it.

 

[xSqUiD]

It is wrong

 

[RDKirk]

Not really. it is said several times in the Bible that both God and Jesus are unchanging.

They are in their persons unchanging, but that does not imply in the slightest that how they relate to one person or group of persons from the another is unchanging. The Letter to the Hebrews is very clear that the relationship of the New Covenant is different from that of the Old Covenant.

And even the New Testament does not speak out openly against slavery. The bar is the same height. And your Bible ran into it.

I've spoken about that. It was not the mission of Jesus to fix the Roman Empire, so He had nothing to say about Roman cultural and government practices.

He doesn't speak out against being a Roman soldier, either. But it is clear enough that slavery is incompatible with the Christian life and Christian human relationships...which is why Christianity had adopted both a non-slavery and non-military stances before the end of the first century.

 

[biggles53]

They are in their persons unchanging, but that does not imply in the slightest that how they relate to one person or group of persons from the another is unchanging. The Letter to the Hebrews is very clear that the relationship of the New Covenant is different from that of the Old Covenant.



I've spoken about that. It was not the mission of Jesus to fix the Roman Empire, so He had nothing to say about Roman cultural and government practices.

He doesn't speak out against being a Roman soldier, either. But it is clear enough that slavery is incompatible with the Christian life and Christian human relationships...which is why Christianity had adopted both a non-slavery and non-military stances before the end of the first century.

Such weak apologetics....

Listen, your god purportedly goes to great pains to lay down a whole raft of commandments to its 'subjects'.....not to murder, not to be jealous of your neighbours possessions, not to lie, who you can sleep with, which days you can work, even what you can wear....

But.....NOWHERE.... does it ever decree that slavery is evil, or even unacceptable....! In fact, it often COMMANDS that the defeated be made slaves and it makes it clear that it is fine to keep slaves, provided you follow some simple rules...

That dead horse you're flogging is never going to get up you know....!

 

[biggles53]

First of all, "New Living Translation"? Seriously? You couldn't find a real Bible?

Second, indenture.

Name the Bible version you prefer....

You're scrambling....

 

[biggles53]

Now, this is the part where you repeat Exodus 21:20 again and keep claiming it says you can beat slaves, even though you have been shown several times now that it doesn't condone slavery or beating slaves, but merely states that a man should not be charged with murder where no murder occurs.

Oh, indeed I will...!

Because it completely undoes all the nonsense you're sprouting about slavery being forbidden and beating being punishable...!

Read it again....it says that if you beat a slave and he dies immediately, then you will be guilty and punished. Now, you say this is showing that murder will be punished.... Fine.......now read on....

It then says that if your slave dies after one or two days then "no punishment will be given"...!

So, if in fact you are right, and beating a slave is forbidden, then why is there NO PUNISHMENT for the slave owner, having just beaten his slave almost to death.....!? According to you, he has just committed the 'crime' of beating a slave..............why is there NO PUNISHMENT....!?

It would be like me shooting you in the head. If you die immediately, I am charged (quite rightly) with murder. However, if you linger on in Intensive Care for a few days and then die, I walk away scot free, according to your warped logic...!

 

[Subduction Zone]

They are in their persons unchanging, but that does not imply in the slightest that how they relate to one person or group of persons from the another is unchanging. The Letter to the Hebrews is very clear that the relationship of the New Covenant is different from that of the Old Covenant.



I've spoken about that. It was not the mission of Jesus to fix the Roman Empire, so He had nothing to say about Roman cultural and government practices.

He doesn't speak out against being a Roman soldier, either. But it is clear enough that slavery is incompatible with the Christian life and Christian human relationships...which is why Christianity had adopted both a non-slavery and non-military stances before the end of the first century.

Not so. Even in the 1800's the Bible was used to justify slavery. The fact that there were people on both sides of the argument shows that the Bible can be used to support almost any argument. There are parts of the Bible that are clearly pro-slavery. Those parts were never corrected. That is because a major flaw in the Bible is the inability to correct its many errors.

 

[RDKirk]

Such weak apologetics....

Listen, your god purportedly goes to great pains to lay down a whole raft of commandments to its 'subjects'.....not to murder, not to be jealous of your neighbours possessions, not to lie, who you can sleep with, which days you can work, even what you can wear....

But.....NOWHERE.... does it ever decree that slavery is evil, or even unacceptable....! In fact, it often COMMANDS that the defeated be made slaves and it makes it clear that it is fine to keep slaves, provided you follow some simple rules...

That dead horse you're flogging is never going to get up you know....!

It's a horse you're flogging, not I. Christianity is the religion that developed a specific anti-slavery theology, and nobody even developed a secular anti-slavery philosophy who had not been influenced by Christianity. If you refuse to see how or why, that's rather your own problem in understanding history.