• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Is slavery wrong?

biggles53

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2008
2,819
63
72
Pottsville, NSW, Australia
✟25,841.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
AU-Greens
Actually, v 41 tells us that Jesus is presenting a parable about his return, not giving instructions about slavery.

Again, that's a parable about Jesus' return, not instructions on slave keeping.

Yes....and in telling that parable, he LIKENS the preparedness people should make for his return with the manner that a slave should prepare for the return of his master.....he then goes on to say what should happen to that slave if he fails in his readiness....!
 
Upvote 0

biggles53

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2008
2,819
63
72
Pottsville, NSW, Australia
✟25,841.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
AU-Greens
So South Bound,

Still waiting to see these supposed verses which forbid the beating of slaves.....?

Or is this yet another example of where groundless claims are made, then the claimant disappears for a while, only to return later making the same claims.....?
 
Upvote 0

Lollerskates

Junior Member
May 2, 2013
2,992
250
✟4,340.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Yes....and in telling that parable, he LIKENS the preparedness people should make for his return with the manner that a slave should prepare for the return of his master.....he then goes on to say what should happen to that slave if he fails in his readiness....!

It was a parable, not a declaration of action, or necessarily an affirmation of encouragement. The parable would culturally make sense to a Roman in that time, someone who lived in Egypt, a person involved in the many slave trades, and/or today (if you actually pay attention to our contemporary condition.)

It would be like a Black person in post Antebellum America saying that, "the devil's seduction for you to sin is like the Master's wife who luster to have the young slave. And he flees her, but she persists until he gives in. The her husband, when he finds out, furiously goes to destroy the young, and his entire family, and his belongings, and his life."

I was going to respond earlier, but it seemed like you had a serious chip on your shoulder about Christianity - something you don't believe in, and probably don't care about. That is a lot of power to give something in which you aren't invested and it shows. The States aren't a theocracy and neither is the rest of the West; they are oligarchies. They fight for commodities, so before you give me the, "...war fought in the name of religion" spiel, reread your history, and your contemporary, dust that bleeding heart off of your shoulder toward religion and other PEOPLE, and then come back and try some humility. Have you read the Hebrew words for the scriptures concerning your qualms? The Greek? The culture of histoey? Or, are you just emoting, going off of what you believe, or have heard? Are you going to dismiss everyone as either scared, wrong or disingenuous if the call you out on these things whilst in the mean time keeping in mind the original questions? Or, will you flippant call, "bs," and display your "intellectual and religious superiority" on the breadth of your chest? Are you an atheists asking Christians for answers with sincerity, or are you trying to teach Christians something YOU believe they are ignorant of (with quite hostile language?) I seriously want to know, because it would let me, personally, know whether it is worth it to continue with you, or if you just are just acting like a hurt, confused atheist cliche (or something in between.)
 
Upvote 0

biggles53

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2008
2,819
63
72
Pottsville, NSW, Australia
✟25,841.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
AU-Greens
It was a parable, not a declaration of action, or necessarily an affirmation of encouragement. The parable would culturally make sense to a Roman in that time, someone who lived in Egypt, a person involved in the many slave trades, and/or today (if you actually pay attention to our contemporary condition.)

It would be like a Black person in post Antebellum America saying that, "the devil's seduction for you to sin is like the Master's wife who luster to have the young slave. And he flees her, but she persists until he gives in. The her husband, when he finds out, furiously goes to destroy the young, and his entire family, and his belongings, and his life."

What nonsense..... Remember, the point that I was addressing was whether or not the Bible condoned the harsh treatment and beating of slaves...

In this passage, yes, Jesus is purportedly using a parable to impress upon his followers that they should be in readiness for his future return..

In order to impress upon them the responsibility they have to ensure that readiness, he uses a contemporary example of 'readiness' and includes the punishment/ consequence that might be expected if the person fails in their responsibilities in that example...!

It would be analogous to me explaining to my children when they were young that they should do their homework on time. I might impress this upon them by saying something like..."Kids, doing your homework on time is like having to clean up your room each day. Just as your mother and I will punish you if you slack off in that job, so will your teacher punish you if you fail in your homework duties..."

Now, I've used a simile in there, but the simile reflects a real series of events with which they could identify...

So it is with that passage.....Jesus is using an example of responsibility with which his listeners could identify, as the beating and punishment of a 'lazy' slave would have likewise been considered appropriate...

Otherwise, why use it as an example.....!?

I was going to respond earlier, but it seemed like you had a serious chip on your shoulder about Christianity - something you don't believe in, and probably don't care about. That is a lot of power to give something in which you aren't invested and it shows. The States aren't a theocracy and neither is the rest of the West; they are oligarchies. They fight for commodities, so before you give me the, "...war fought in the name of religion" spiel, reread your history, and your contemporary, dust that bleeding heart off of your shoulder toward religion and other PEOPLE, and then come back and try some humility. Have you read the Hebrew words for the scriptures concerning your qualms? The Greek? The culture of histoey? Or, are you just emoting, going off of what you believe, or have heard? Are you going to dismiss everyone as either scared, wrong or disingenuous if the call you out on these things whilst in the mean time keeping in mind the original questions? Or, will you flippant call, "bs," and display your "intellectual and religious superiority" on the breadth of your chest? Are you an atheists asking Christians for answers with sincerity, or are you trying to teach Christians something YOU believe they are ignorant of (with quite hostile language?) I seriously want to know, because it would let me, personally, know whether it is worth it to continue with you, or if you just are just acting like a hurt, confused atheist cliche (or something in between.)

I've explained before why I participate in these debates...

1. The religiously motivated must be resisted in their attempts to use their beliefs to enact legislation to interfere in the lives of others.

2. The religiously motivated must be resisted in their attempts to infiltrate our children's classrooms with superstition and magic, in place of genuine scientific enquiry.

3. The religiously motivated must be resisted in their attempts to harm the mental health of the young by terrorising them with stories of damnation and hellfire.

4. I have an interest in seeking out new knowledge on the basis of reasoned, logical enquiry...
 
Upvote 0

Lollerskates

Junior Member
May 2, 2013
2,992
250
✟4,340.00
Faith
Non-Denom
What nonsense..... Remember, the point that I was addressing was whether or not the Bible condoned the harsh treatment and beating of slaves...

In this passage, yes, Jesus is purportedly using a parable to impress upon his followers that they should be in readiness for his future return..

In order to impress upon them the responsibility they have to ensure that readiness, he uses a contemporary example of 'readiness' and includes the punishment/ consequence that might be expected if the person fails in their responsibilities in that example...!

It would be analogous to me explaining to my children when they were young that they should do their homework on time. I might impress this upon them by saying something like..."Kids, doing your homework on time is like having to clean up your room each day. Just as your mother and I will punish you if you slack off in that job, so will your teacher punish you if you fail in your homework duties..."

Now, I've used a simile in there, but the simile reflects a real series of events with which they could identify...

So it is with that passage.....Jesus is using an example of responsibility with which his listeners could identify, as the beating and punishment of a 'lazy' slave would have likewise been considered appropriate...

Otherwise, why use it as an example.....!?

What nonsense. See how easy that is?

You don't think it is a little insulting for someone who has no knowledge of the original language, history, culture, no interest invested in the faith, and no belief in the God of the faith to try to teach believers of the faith about the flaws of their own faith, especially under the guise of asking [philosophical] questions, with the intent of a [philosophical] debate? Even academics who are atheists at least spend years learning the history and culture of a religion before claiming to understand it, let alone feign understanding it's intricacies. This is what you are doing - under the veneer of "debate." It is less than transparent.



I've explained before why I participate in these debates...

1. The religiously motivated must be resisted in their attempts to use their beliefs to enact legislation to interfere in the lives of others.

This is problem one I saw already: the paranoia and falsehood that a theocracy - secret, open or forming - is threatening the lives of others through their direct influence on geopolitics, legislation, economics, and social issues. You have to ignore the fact that most religious have no say in their own counties, let alone the world. The governments, and private industries funding them are the entities responsible for the atrocities of war, using demagoguery to exploit public consciousness to and fro.

You have fallen for this; no matter how much people thing Muslims, Christians, Jews, or Atheists are forming the framework of the world, they are simply deluded. The trajectory of the world, and the danger therein has always been, and always will be about three things: Power, Resources/Commodities (including humans as Commodity), and Control. Religion is always used because, next to skin color, it is one of the most polarizing (and thus, easily controllable) excuses. Even Vatican inquisitions, and "Holy" wars of the past were less about religion, and more about control, resources and power. So, your fear, or campaign against the bogeyman neatly packaged for your consciousness is one of folly. You should be looking at your own government, the world political scene, and the many laws and declassified documents that all but verbatim explain the point of all of "this." Do you think this is the first time religion has been falsely and psychologically used to cause a controlled paradigm shift?

2. The religiously motivated must be resisted in their attempts to infiltrate our children's classrooms with superstition and magic, in place of genuine scientific enquiry.

Again, you missed the point entirely. One man's superstition is another man's truth. Science is not the arbiter of truth, and academia has done a profoundly wonderful job psychologically operating upon the minds of people desperately looking for answers. The psychological operation of religion has done that too; science does it for everyone else, and everyone in between. This is the same psychological structure Christ was against, by the way.

Science is wonderful, but academia is the political arm of something that once was a purity of creativity, sageness, and fellowship amongst all: philosophy. Academia all but explicitly purports that they are the arbiters of truth. Certainly, if you go against the standard model of any scientific discipline, you are ridiculed for not accepting "facts" (some of which are refuted as false.) If you have to drink a petri dish of bacteria in order to prove a point to your dissenting academic peers, then that is a problem - a "brotherhood" of division and closed mindedness. Depending, scholarly articles are removed, blacklisting, and even loss of tenure or worse can occur simply for trying to vindicate one's belief that contradicts the standard model. This is like Vatican/Temple/Governmental structure: chains of command, little room for challenging "higher ups," and if you do, you face consequences. It's the same stuff, different institution. Dr. Barry Marshall was lucky he only had to drink a petri dish of h. pylori, and that he and Dr. Robin Warren won a Nobel Prize instead of loss of tenure for going against the doggedly rigid scientific belief stress caused ulcers. (By the way, these were two Australian, I am surprised you don't know or consider this cautionary tale about the "immunity" and near perfection of science as so much that we all should just accept them not as philosophy, but fact FIRST.)

Academia goes where their money takes them: do you think a professor of physics paid for the LHC? Whoever gives the grant money controls the study. And, since 80%+ of grant money is private funds, the public gets served whatever the private company chooses for research. Think again, why there is no cancer or AIDS cure, for example. As I said before, this is all part of the same scheme: control, power, and resources. Psychologically exploiting people's political interests in scientific issues is all that is going on here... they use the staunchness of controlled divided public consciousness to set up paradigms, with one side being "absolutely right," and the other side being "ridiculously wrong". As per your statement, incredulity like "magic," and "superstition" are usually put together with edifying statements like "truth," and "genuine" for comparative effect, as to further admonish the other side, and to discourage those intellectually in between. This is textbook demagoguery, and psychological exploitation. And you making a crusade about this is exactly what is expected.

3. The religiously motivated must be resisted in their attempts to harm the mental health of the young by terrorising them with stories of damnation and hellfire.

See above #2, but here is also what I meant by ignorance and/or no knowledge of the history, culture, or even importance of something you are trying to argue (and do not believe in.) The "hellfire" routine is a consequence of post-Christ trying to fill the buildings, and gain converts. POWER. HUMAN COMMODITY. I am not going to go into a thesis about the history of the Church, corruption, and struggles for power - as well as suppression of truth, the real reasons behind many of the AD wars, and what "religion," as opposed to faith means. I certainly could, but you have smaller issues to deal with concerning that which I have replied. Just food for thought: ever hear of Westboro Baptist Church? If not, look them up. Another morsel for thought: why are there so many denominations for not only Christianity, but most all religions? Hint: P., R., and C.

4. I have an interest in seeking out new knowledge on the basis of reasoned, logical enquiry...

I don't believe that, frankly, if you are calling people names who are entertaining your very pointed and assuming questions and statements. And, reason, and logic only get you so far: they are like wearing goggles in the water. Sure, your sight is better than someone who does not use the tool, but your periphery is reduced. A person that always wears goggles to the water does not build up a strong of a resistance as one that, over many times, does not use them. This is the difference between knowledge and wisdom, between intellectual ism and experience. Ideally, one would have a mix of both, just as ideally one would forget the goggles at home every so often, and take the burn of the water.

Now, as I said before, if you are truly interested in seeking out new knowledge on the basis of logic and reason, read The Art of War by Sun Tzu. It is literally the handbook world governments have used to gain access to power, resources and control over several centuries. It explains most all of your qualms, and even more eye opening information. Then, read some Hebrew history, teach yourself (or learn) the Hebrew alphabet, learn the Greek alphabet, history and some words, and then re-read the bible. Then find out why the Vatican removed, and then added, then removed texts. Read them. Discern. Then, read your country's laws, and declassified documents, and other countries' respective documents.

Then, after all that, if you still have issues say something (or, ask someone knowledgeable in all of these things: don't tell them.) I would challenge you to do that.


If you just want to rant please feel free but you won't be robbing me of any valuable energy entertaining such behavior - no matter how stupid or nonsensical you think I am.
 
Upvote 0

BL2KTN

Scholar, Author, Educator
Oct 22, 2010
2,109
83
Tennessee, United States
✟33,144.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Libertarian
Lollerskates said:
What nonsense. See how easy that is?

You don't think it is a little insulting for someone who has no knowledge of the original language, history, culture, no interest invested in the faith, and no belief in the God of the faith to try to teach believers of the faith about the flaws of their own faith, especially under the guise of asking [philosophical] questions, with the intent of a [philosophical] debate? Even academics who are atheists at least spend years learning the history and culture of a religion before claiming to understand it, let alone feign understanding it's intricacies. This is what you are doing - under the veneer of "debate." It is less than transparent.

I have a degree in biblical studies from a Christian university. I don't see anywhere he erred. Do you have a college degree in biblical or religious studies?
 
Upvote 0

Lollerskates

Junior Member
May 2, 2013
2,992
250
✟4,340.00
Faith
Non-Denom
I have a degree in biblical studies from a Christian university. I don't see anywhere he erred. Do you have a college degree in biblical or religious studies?

No my degree is in physics. But, I have actually read the bible, the apocrypha, and studied Hebrew, Sumerian, Phoenician, Ancient Greek, Ancient Roman, Hellenistic, Italian, Chinese, Indian, and many other cultural historical and anthropological texts - both as an academic, and layperson. I also study Greek, Latin, Egyptian and Hebrew as languages, and have for many years. Oh, and I am a Christian.

So, while you may not see anything wrong with it - you can just say that. No need to have a degree measuring context because it isn't important: biblical academics often miss the point just as they provide valuable insight. This is true with all academics. But, no one should take your word for something because you have a degree in biblical studies, just as they shouldn't take someone's word just because s/he is a Ph.D physicist from an Ivy League institution. I have personally been in the presence of children who know more than my peers on advanced, albeit very specific topics. Credentials don't matter.

Now, if you noticed, or cared to pay attention, you would realize the context of the "nonsense statement." But, never mind that: the real "credential" you should be parading for acceptance is not your degree, but your faith. Do you even believe in Christ, God, or any of the bible as inspired word of God, the Most High? Or, are you just here for the lulz, arguing academically or philosophically?
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
43,079
23,824
US
✟1,820,597.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I've been told that in Biblical days people who were poor would sell themselves and their children into slavery. Is that kind of slavery wrong?

"Biblical days" covers something like 2000 years from Abraham to Christ. That would be from the middle Bronze Age. Abraham lived under the Law of Hammurabi.

Yes, the Mosaic Law permitted chattel slavery of non-Jews by Jews as well as debt slavery of Jews to other Jews.

What I said before was "God did not create Jews to be chattel to other Jews, but He did permit Jews to become indebted to other Jews."

One of the things that should become clear as one contemplates the Mosaic Covenant with the New Testament is that the Mosaic Covenant was the Lord's first formal code for a people who were basically Bronze Age riffraff that had a long way to go before becoming the kind of people the Lord ultimately wanted as His light to the world.

Moses: "I can't bear these people! Lord, if you love me, kill me now!" -- Numbers 11.

God: “I have seen these people,” the LORD said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.” -- Exodus 32

These were not people that were going to be made into a morally perfect 21st Century Modern Civilization. The Mosaic Law does contain moral compromises. We get an explanation of the moral compromises within the Mosaic Law even from Jesus:

"Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning." -- Matthew 19

Matthew 5 itself is a virtual repudiation of the moral compromises of the Mosaic Law, compromises made because those Bronze Age people were not ready for better behavior.

Compare the Mosaic Law with the earlier law of Hammurabi or the contemporary laws of Egypt, and we see a tremendously more advanced treatment of slaves (as well as women, for that matter).

So what we see in Leviticus 25 is the same "baby step" we see in Deuteronomy 24 that Jesus referenced with respect to divorce. Their hearts were too hard to become perfect, but they could take a baby step: Don't enslave your fellow Israelite as chattel.
This is called "progressive revelation."

Incidentally, with specific regard to Philemon and Onesimus, even Leviticus 25 was fully valid for Paul to use to direct Philemon to free Onesimus after Paul said "If he has done you any wrong or owes you anything, charge it to me." Even Leviticus 25 was sufficient to declare, at the very least, "Don't enslave your fellow Christian as chattel."

The Church had determined that slavery was prohibited in the first two centuries, and the Church had abandoned it. When Constantine gave the Church a stake an empire that depended on slavery, Church prohibition was blunted in favor of the needs of the empire.

But even in that time, the Church never gave slavery any theological justification. There were Popes who permitted it on the basis of the rights of nations--not theology.

Protestants arrived at the conclusion that slavery was sinful throughout the Protestant world, including the American south by the late 1700s. Even Southerners at the time acknowledged its sinfulness. That changed in the South--and only in the South--with the invention of the cotton gin, which made slavery wildly profitable.

It is only in the American south in the early 1800s that any theological justification has ever been posed by Christians, and that justification was obviously absurd.

"But Jesus didn't preach against slavery!"

Something important to note is that it was not (and is not) the mission of the Church to "fix" the Roman empire. If you read 1 Peter, you see that the Body of Christ operates as a "diplomatic mission" to the nations of the world, representing the Kingdom of Heaven.

The "slavery" permitted within the culture of believers, both OT and NT, was debt bondage, not chattel slavery. God did not create Jews to be chattel to other Jews, but He did permit Jews to become indebted to other Jews. Debt bondage is the same thing any of us might enter as an "unsecured loan." Like debt bondage in ancient times, that unsecured loan debt can be bought and sold by its owners.

However, debt bondage in those days had distinct and severe limits to prevent a "slave class" from ever occurring among Jews. As well, even while in debt bondage, the debtor could not be treated as chattel, but still was recognized as a Jew and chosen of God.

This continued in the New Testament. It was not the mission of the Body of Christ to "fix" the Roman Empire. The Body of Christ is a diplomatic mission to the nations of this world, and as any diplomatic mission, it must obey the laws of the host nation outside its gates. However, within the gates of the diplomatic mission, the laws of the home nation prevail.

That is how it is with the Body of Christ. Outside the context of the Body of Christ and its members, the host nation laws prevail. Within the context of the Body of Christ and its members, the laws of the Kingdom of Heaven prevail (this is referenced in practical detail in 1 Corinthians 5).

Before we get to the letter to Philemon, there are some other points to note. Slavery in the Roman empire occurred in two ways:

1. As a person kidnapped or taken as a war prisoner into slavery, becoming a chattel slave.
2. A freeborn man entering debt bondage or becoming a slave as a penalty for theft.

Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings. -- 1 Corinthians 7

Paul speaks of slavery as though it had an optional component. That was possible for debt bondage. It was not possible for chattel slavery. Paul could say, "Don't go into debt." Paul could not say, "Don't be kidnapped."

We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine -- 1 Timothy 1

Thus, the slave trade of kidnapping is made illegal within the Body of Christ, but going into debt is permitted.

And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him. -- Ephesians 6

To a Christian who had slaves this verse is a jaw dropper. If the slave owner considered the slave his personal property, this verse creates a different relationship. Both persons are actually the slaves of the Lord. That makes the "slave" no longer the property of the "master," but his responsibility under the one who is the Master of both of them--for the Master sees no difference between them--they are both His property, both bought for a price.

Now, to Paul's letter to Philemon. The first question to ask: What is the purpose of this letter? Latter apologists for slavery and those who wish to accuse Christianity of condoning slavery both claim the letter is nothing more than a plea from Paul for Philemon merely to be nice to Onesimus.

One would have to explain, though, why a mere "be nice" letter would have been cherished, preserved, copied, and shared among the early Christians and eventually considered of such significant doctrinal importance to have been included as part of the Canon.

The tone and deep emotion of the letter also belies the claim that its purpose is so shallow. If the point were merely "be nice," it's more likely Paul would have included it as a closing point to a congregational letter, such as he did to Euodia and Syntyche at the end of the letter to the Philippians.

No, this letter clearly has a singular and very important message personally to Philemon and doctrinally to the Body of Christ. It's purpose was to secure the freedom of Onesimus, and as preserved by the early Christians for doctrine, it was recognized as directive to the entire early church.

Indeed, history indicates that slavery among Christians had died out until Christianity became the national religion of the Empire...which depended economically on slavery. At that point, the empire was able to use the Church to validate all of its actions.

On to Philemon:

Therefore, although in Christ I could be bold and order you to do what you ought to do, yet I prefer to appeal to you on the basis of love.

Translation: I have a big stick, but I'm going to speak softly.

It is as none other than Paul—an old man and now also a prisoner of Christ Jesus—

Translation: You know me--I am your elder and I suffer even now for the Body in which you are a member.


that I appeal to you for my son Onesimus, who became my son while I was in chains....
I am sending him—who is my very heart—back to you.

Translation: I consider Onesimus my own son--which is about the most important familial relationship possible in this society. Men value their sons more than they value their wives. Just want you to know how serious this is to me.

I would have liked to keep him with me so that he could take your place in helping me while I am in chains for the gospel. But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do would not seem forced but would be voluntary.

Translation: But there is a legal matter I need you to attend to.

Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a little while was that you might have him back forever— no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord.

Translation: What part of "no longer as a slave" is hard to understand? "No longer as a slave" does not mean "be nice to him as a slave." "No longer as a slave" actually means "no longer as a slave."

If he has done you any wrong or owes you anything, charge it to me.

Translation: He was a slave because of a debt he owed you (which is the only bondage we allow among Christians)--so put that debt on my tab. That makes him free.

I, Paul, am writing this with my own hand. I will pay it back—not to mention that you owe me your very self.

Translation: Oh, and by the way, I won't mention that you owe me a whole lot more. Well, maybe I did mention it...so that cancels whatever Onesimus owed...and you're still in debt to me.

Confident of your obedience, I write to you, knowing that you will do even more than I ask.

Translation: Capish? Good. I expect you to do it.

And one thing more: Prepare a guest room for me, because I hope to be restored to you in answer to your prayers.

Translation: I'm going to drop by soon to make sure you did what I--ahem--"asked" you to do.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lollerskates
Upvote 0

biggles53

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2008
2,819
63
72
Pottsville, NSW, Australia
✟25,841.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
AU-Greens
What nonsense. See how easy that is?

You don't think it is a little insulting for someone who has no knowledge of the original language, history, culture, no interest invested in the faith, and no belief in the God of the faith to try to teach believers of the faith about the flaws of their own faith, especially under the guise of asking [philosophical] questions, with the intent of a [philosophical] debate? Even academics who are atheists at least spend years learning the history and culture of a religion before claiming to understand it, let alone feign understanding it's intricacies. This is what you are doing - under the veneer of "debate." It is less than transparent.

Let's see....anything in there at all which remotely addresses the point I was making about slave treatment...?

Nope.....not a thing. So let's move on...

I'm going to 'snip' much of your diatribe and focus on only those points which come anywhere near addressing mine...


This is problem one I saw already: the paranoia and falsehood that a theocracy - secret, open or forming - is threatening the lives of others through their direct influence on geopolitics, legislation, economics, and social issues.

Did my first point mention theocracies...? No....you've used that as an opportunity to go off on a tangential rant.......answer me these...

Is there generally a religious basis behind those movements that seek to interfere in the reproductive freedoms of women...(and men for that matter)..?

Is there a religious motivation behind those who would seek to legislate for the freedom to actively discriminate against others on the basis of sexuality...?



Again, you missed the point entirely. One man's superstition is another man's truth. Science is not the arbiter of truth, and academia has done a profoundly wonderful job psychologically operating upon the minds of people desperately looking for answers.

Again, an answer please...

Is it not so that there is a religious motivation behind those who would wish to replace or match the teaching of evolutionary biology with creationism in our children's science classes...?

Is it not so that the courts in your country have determined that there should be no place for such study within a science syllabus...?


Science is wonderful, ......

And since "science" at its root means basically "knowledge", we have certainly witnessed the benefits of pursuing a path of increasing our knowledge of our world and how it works. Had we not, we would be still shivering in dark caves, chewing on raw flesh with rotting teeth and waiting for the end of our miserably short lives...

One need only look to the few remaining pockets of human society wherein scientific progress is generally eschewed to see the dire existence such a philosophy dictates. One would also observe that such philosophies usually exist hand in hand with fundamental religious beliefs of one stripe or another...


.
Academia all but explicitly purports that they are the arbiters of truth.

More nonsense.....those involved with rational enquiry are about the business of having existing knowledge overturned...! it's how we progress...!

We leave the claim to knowing 'The Truth' to those who base their worldview on the vagaries of faith.....



See above #2, but here is also what I meant by ignorance and/or no knowledge of the history, culture, or even importance of something you are trying to argue (and do not believe in.) The "hellfire" routine is a consequence of post-Christ trying to fill the buildings, and gain converts.

I don't care....the fact is that such a strategy has been used to frighten/coerce our children for centuries. If you're also against such an approach, then fine....join with me in arguing it...!


I don't believe that, frankly, if you are calling people names who are entertaining your very pointed and assuming questions and statements.

I don't care what you believe....and, as far as possible I do not call people names. Yes, I energetically attack what I consider to be false, stupid, illogical or immoral arguments, but I do attempt to refrain from simple name-calling...

And, reason, and logic only get you so far:

And isn't it amazing how "far" it has taken us....!?


Now, as I said before, if you are truly interested in seeking out new knowledge on the basis of logic and reason, read The Art of War by Sun Tzu.

I'm staring at it on my bookshelf as I type this.....so what...?

<more irrelevant socio-political diatribe>
 
Upvote 0

South Bound

I stand with Israel.
Jan 3, 2014
4,443
1,034
✟46,159.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So South Bound,

Still waiting to see these supposed verses which forbid the beating of slaves.....?

Or is this yet another example of where groundless claims are made, then the claimant disappears for a while, only to return later making the same claims.....?

Once again, Exodus 21:26-27.

And once again, you'll ignore it.
 
Upvote 0

Lollerskates

Junior Member
May 2, 2013
2,992
250
✟4,340.00
Faith
Non-Denom
"Biblical days" covers something like 2000 years from Abraham to Christ. That would be from the middle Bronze Age. Abraham lived under the Law of Hammurabi.

Yes, the Mosaic Law permitted chattel slavery of non-Jews by Jews as well as debt slavery of Jews to other Jews.

What I said before was "God did not create Jews to be chattel to other Jews, but He did permit Jews to become indebted to other Jews."

One of the things that should become clear as one contemplates the Mosaic Covenant with the New Testament is that the Mosaic Covenant was the Lord's first formal code for a people who were basically Bronze Age riffraff that had a long way to go before becoming the kind of people the Lord ultimately wanted as His light to the world.

Moses: "I can't bear these people! Lord, if you love me, kill me now!" -- Numbers 11.

God: “I have seen these people,” the LORD said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.” -- Exodus 32

These were not people that were going to be made into a morally perfect 21st Century Modern Civilization. The Mosaic Law does contain moral compromises. We get an explanation of the moral compromises within the Mosaic Law even from Jesus:

"Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning." -- Matthew 19

Matthew 5 itself is a virtual repudiation of the moral compromises of the Mosaic Law, compromises made because those Bronze Age people were not ready for better behavior.

Compare the Mosaic Law with the earlier law of Hammurabi or the contemporary laws of Egypt, and we see a tremendously more advanced treatment of slaves (as well as women, for that matter).

So what we see in Leviticus 25 is the same "baby step" we see in Deuteronomy 24 that Jesus referenced with respect to divorce. Their hearts were too hard to become perfect, but they could take a baby step: Don't enslave your fellow Israelite as chattel.
This is called "progressive revelation."

Incidentally, with specific regard to Philemon and Onesimus, even Leviticus 25 was fully valid for Paul to use to direct Philemon to free Onesimus after Paul said "If he has done you any wrong or owes you anything, charge it to me." Even Leviticus 25 was sufficient to declare, at the very least, "Don't enslave your fellow Christian as chattel."

The Church had determined that slavery was prohibited in the first two centuries, and the Church had abandoned it. When Constantine gave the Church a stake an empire that depended on slavery, Church prohibition was blunted in favor of the needs of the empire.

But even in that time, the Church never gave slavery any theological justification. There were Popes who permitted it on the basis of the rights of nations--not theology.

Protestants arrived at the conclusion that slavery was sinful throughout the Protestant world, including the American south by the late 1700s. Even Southerners at the time acknowledged its sinfulness. That changed in the South--and only in the South--with the invention of the cotton gin, which made slavery wildly profitable.

It is only in the American south in the early 1800s that any theological justification has ever been posed by Christians, and that justification was obviously absurd.

"But Jesus didn't preach against slavery!"

Something important to note is that it was not (and is not) the mission of the Church to "fix" the Roman empire. If you read 1 Peter, you see that the Body of Christ operates as a "diplomatic mission" to the nations of the world, representing the Kingdom of Heaven.

The "slavery" permitted within the culture of believers, both OT and NT, was debt bondage, not chattel slavery. God did not create Jews to be chattel to other Jews, but He did permit Jews to become indebted to other Jews. Debt bondage is the same thing any of us might enter as an "unsecured loan." Like debt bondage in ancient times, that unsecured loan debt can be bought and sold by its owners.

However, debt bondage in those days had distinct and severe limits to prevent a "slave class" from ever occurring among Jews. As well, even while in debt bondage, the debtor could not be treated as chattel, but still was recognized as a Jew and chosen of God.

This continued in the New Testament. It was not the mission of the Body of Christ to "fix" the Roman Empire. The Body of Christ is a diplomatic mission to the nations of this world, and as any diplomatic mission, it must obey the laws of the host nation outside its gates. However, within the gates of the diplomatic mission, the laws of the home nation prevail.

That is how it is with the Body of Christ. Outside the context of the Body of Christ and its members, the host nation laws prevail. Within the context of the Body of Christ and its members, the laws of the Kingdom of Heaven prevail (this is referenced in practical detail in 1 Corinthians 5).

Before we get to the letter to Philemon, there are some other points to note. Slavery in the Roman empire occurred in two ways:

1. As a person kidnapped or taken as a war prisoner into slavery, becoming a chattel slave.
2. A freeborn man entering debt bondage or becoming a slave as a penalty for theft.

Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings. -- 1 Corinthians 7

Paul speaks of slavery as though it had an optional component. That was possible for debt bondage. It was not possible for chattel slavery. Paul could say, "Don't go into debt." Paul could not say, "Don't be kidnapped."

We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine -- 1 Timothy 1

Thus, the slave trade of kidnapping is made illegal within the Body of Christ, but going into debt is permitted.

And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him. -- Ephesians 6

To a Christian who had slaves this verse is a jaw dropper. If the slave owner considered the slave his personal property, this verse creates a different relationship. Both persons are actually the slaves of the Lord. That makes the "slave" no longer the property of the "master," but his responsibility under the one who is the Master of both of them--for the Master sees no difference between them--they are both His property, both bought for a price.

Now, to Paul's letter to Philemon. The first question to ask: What is the purpose of this letter? Latter apologists for slavery and those who wish to accuse Christianity of condoning slavery both claim the letter is nothing more than a plea from Paul for Philemon merely to be nice to Onesimus.

One would have to explain, though, why a mere "be nice" letter would have been cherished, preserved, copied, and shared among the early Christians and eventually considered of such significant doctrinal importance to have been included as part of the Canon.

The tone and deep emotion of the letter also belies the claim that its purpose is so shallow. If the point were merely "be nice," it's more likely Paul would have included it as a closing point to a congregational letter, such as he did to Euodia and Syntyche at the end of the letter to the Philippians.

No, this letter clearly has a singular and very important message personally to Philemon and doctrinally to the Body of Christ. It's purpose was to secure the freedom of Onesimus, and as preserved by the early Christians for doctrine, it was recognized as directive to the entire early church.

Indeed, history indicates that slavery among Christians had died out until Christianity became the national religion of the Empire...which depended economically on slavery. At that point, the empire was able to use the Church to validate all of its actions.

On to Philemon:

Therefore, although in Christ I could be bold and order you to do what you ought to do, yet I prefer to appeal to you on the basis of love.

Translation: I have a big stick, but I'm going to speak softly.

It is as none other than Paul—an old man and now also a prisoner of Christ Jesus—

Translation: You know me--I am your elder and I suffer even now for the Body in which you are a member.


that I appeal to you for my son Onesimus, who became my son while I was in chains....
I am sending him—who is my very heart—back to you.

Translation: I consider Onesimus my own son--which is about the most important familial relationship possible in this society. Men value their sons more than they value their wives. Just want you to know how serious this is to me.

I would have liked to keep him with me so that he could take your place in helping me while I am in chains for the gospel. But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do would not seem forced but would be voluntary.

Translation: But there is a legal matter I need you to attend to.

Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a little while was that you might have him back forever— no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord.

Translation: What part of "no longer as a slave" is hard to understand? "No longer as a slave" does not mean "be nice to him as a slave." "No longer as a slave" actually means "no longer as a slave."

If he has done you any wrong or owes you anything, charge it to me.

Translation: He was a slave because of a debt he owed you (which is the only bondage we allow among Christians)--so put that debt on my tab. That makes him free.

I, Paul, am writing this with my own hand. I will pay it back—not to mention that you owe me your very self.

Translation: Oh, and by the way, I won't mention that you owe me a whole lot more. Well, maybe I did mention it...so that cancels whatever Onesimus owed...and you're still in debt to me.

Confident of your obedience, I write to you, knowing that you will do even more than I ask.

Translation: Capish? Good. I expect you to do it.

And one thing more: Prepare a guest room for me, because I hope to be restored to you in answer to your prayers.

Translation: I'm going to drop by soon to make sure you did what I--ahem--"asked" you to do.

This is an example of understanding, and investing in the history, culture, context, and original language of biblical issues. I will reserve my own alignment (agree or disagree) until later; but to marginally spoil... I may often use this as reference.
 
Upvote 0

Lollerskates

Junior Member
May 2, 2013
2,992
250
✟4,340.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Let's see....anything in there at all which remotely addresses the point I was making about slave treatment...?

Nope.....not a thing. So let's move on...

I'm going to 'snip' much of your diatribe and focus on only those points which come anywhere near addressing mine...




Did my first point mention theocracies...? No....you've used that as an opportunity to go off on a tangential rant.......answer me these...

Is there generally a religious basis behind those movements that seek to interfere in the reproductive freedoms of women...(and men for that matter)..?

Is there a religious motivation behind those who would seek to legislate for the freedom to actively discriminate against others on the basis of sexuality...?





Again, an answer please...

Is it not so that there is a religious motivation behind those who would wish to replace or match the teaching of evolutionary biology with creationism in our children's science classes...?

Is it not so that the courts in your country have determined that there should be no place for such study within a science syllabus...?




And since "science" at its root means basically "knowledge", we have certainly witnessed the benefits of pursuing a path of increasing our knowledge of our world and how it works. Had we not, we would be still shivering in dark caves, chewing on raw flesh with rotting teeth and waiting for the end of our miserably short lives...

One need only look to the few remaining pockets of human society wherein scientific progress is generally eschewed to see the dire existence such a philosophy dictates. One would also observe that such philosophies usually exist hand in hand with fundamental religious beliefs of one stripe or another...


.

More nonsense.....those involved with rational enquiry are about the business of having existing knowledge overturned...! it's how we progress...!

We leave the claim to knowing 'The Truth' to those who base their worldview on the vagaries of faith.....





I don't care....the fact is that such a strategy has been used to frighten/coerce our children for centuries. If you're also against such an approach, then fine....join with me in arguing it...!




I don't care what you believe....and, as far as possible I do not call people names. Yes, I energetically attack what I consider to be false, stupid, illogical or immoral arguments, but I do attempt to refrain from simple name-calling...



And isn't it amazing how "far" it has taken us....!?




I'm staring at it on my bookshelf as I type this.....so what...?


Ok, well then I have my answers.

:wave:
 
Upvote 0

biggles53

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2008
2,819
63
72
Pottsville, NSW, Australia
✟25,841.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
AU-Greens
Once again, Exodus 21:26-27.

And once again, you'll ignore it.

26 &#8220;If a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye. 27 And if he [y]knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth."

Au contraire....I've not ignored it before, nor will I now...I don't see how you read that as a basic prohibition to beat slaves.... It specifically addresses what must be done if that beating causes a specific injury.... In these cases, the loss of eyes or teeth......where in any of that, however, does it say that slaves may not be beaten...??

Especially when you consider that it follows this just a few verses previously....

"20 &#8220;If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies [q]at his hand, he shall [r]be punished. 21 If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his [t]property."

This verse affirms two things.....firstly, that a slave is "his property" and secondly, that it is ok to beat your slave with a rod, as long as he doesn't die outright.....but if he survives a day or two, you're fine....!

How you can read those two verses, which are separated by just a few lines, and NOT come to the conclusion that your god was a condoner of slave beating....well, that's a remarkable case of cognitive dissonance you have there....!
 
Upvote 0

jgarden

Senior Veteran
Jan 1, 2004
10,695
3,181
✟106,405.00
Faith
Methodist
Is slavery wrong?

Early Christianity was widely viewed as a religion of the the poor and oppressed. The Second Coming was welcomed by those whose daily lives were mired in poverty and a constant struggle to survive.

Christianity didn't dustinguish between rich and poor - based on Jesus' teachings, many early Christians questioned how it was possible for a wealthy man to "pass through the eye of a needle."

It is only with the emergence of Emperor Constantine, and an end of the Roman persecutions, that Christianity was embraced by the wealthier segments of society.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

biggles53

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2008
2,819
63
72
Pottsville, NSW, Australia
✟25,841.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
AU-Greens
Is slavery wrong?

Early Christianity was widely viewed as a religion of the the poor and oppressed. The Second Coming was welcomed by those whose daily lives were mired in poverty and a constant struggle to survive.

Christianity didn't dustinguish between rich and poor - based on Jesus' teachings, many early Christians questioned how it was possible for a wealthy man to "pass through the eye of a needle."

It is only with the emergence of Emperor Constantine, and an end of the Roman persecutions, that Christianity was embraced by the wealthier segments of society.

How does any of that assist us in determining whether or not slavery is/was "wrong"...?
 
Upvote 0

Subduction Zone

Regular Member
Dec 17, 2012
32,629
12,069
✟230,471.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Can I just say that it makes me hurt deep inside that people are really in conflict about whether or not slavery is immoral?

I don't think anyone is in any conflict over whether or not slavery is evil. Sadly the Bible does not seem to think so. It is rather pro-slavery to say the least. It even warns you that if you beat a slave almost to death or more that the slave better linger for a day or two before dying. If he lasts a few days everything is hunky dory according to the Bible.
 
Upvote 0