Is sinning necessary

Gary K · Nov 6, 2023

Let's look at more from John.

John 17: 1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Power comes from:

[*StrongsGreek*]
01849
ἐξουσία exousía, ex-oo-see'-ah
from 1832 (in the sense of ability);
privilege, i.e. (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely, magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence:--authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.

Know comes from:

[*StrongsGreek*]
01097
γινώσκω ginṓskō, ghin-oce'-ko
a prolonged form of a primary verb;
to "know" (absolutely) in a great variety of applications and with many implications (as follow, with others not thus clearly expressed):--allow, be aware (of), feel, (have) know(-ledge), perceived, be resolved, can speak, be sure, understand.

So we see from John that eternal life is demonstrated in us and that eternal life comes from knowing Jesus. Why? Because knowing Jesus personally causes us to love Him and as love is the most powerful force in the universe it allows Him to change us back into His image.

Gary K · Nov 6, 2023

As Jesus is the Word of God the following opens up new vistas for understanding OT scripture.

Isaiah 55:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.

What did Jesus say about peace?

John 14: 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

This ties in very closely with what 1John 1: 4.

And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

As we know joy comes from:

[*StrongsGreek*]
05479
χαρά chará, khar-ah'
from 5463;
cheerfulness, i.e. calm delight:--gladness, X greatly, (X be exceeding) joy(-ful, -fully, -fulness, -ous).

Therefore the peace that Jesus gives us is closely related to the Joy that John spoke about for peace of mind results in calmness.

Go read the story of Jesus' trial and you will see a supernatural calmness in Him that He has promised to give to us. He never breaks His promises as I know from personal experience.

Cribstyl · Nov 6, 2023

Gary K said:
Yes it does. You're ignoring the word definitions I've posted.

Of course the lamb without blemish represented Jesus.

1Corinthians 2: 6 usage of perfect.

[*StrongsGreek*]
05046
τέλειος téleios, tel'-i-os
from 5056;
complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588) completeness:--of full age, man, perfect.

1Corinthians 12: 10 uses the same Greek word.

2Corinthians 7: 10 uses the following:

[*StrongsGreek*]
02005
ἐπιτελέω epiteléō, ep-ee-tel-eh'-o
from 1909 and 5055;
to fulfill further (or completely), i.e. execute; by implication, to terminate, undergo:--accomplish, do, finish, (make) (perfect), perform(X -ance).

2Corinthians 12 9 uses the same word as the first two verses in this list.

2Corinthians 13: 9 uses the following.

[*StrongsGreek*]
02676
κατάρτισις katártisis, kat-ar'-tis-is
from 2675;
thorough equipment (subjectively):--perfection.

2Corinthians 13: 11 uses the following:

[*StrongsGreek*]
02675
καταρτίζω katartízō, kat-ar-tid'-zo
from 2596 and a derivative of 739;
to complete thoroughly, i.e. repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust:--fit, frame, mend, (make) perfect(-ly join together), prepare, restore.

Ephesians 4: 12 uses the following.

[*StrongsGreek*]
02677
καταρτισμός katartismós, kat-ar-tis-mos'
from 2675;
complete furnishing (objectively):--perfecting.

That demonstrates pretty conclusively that these are not isolated texts and that Paul believed just what scripture demonstrates he said. You're welcome to reject it but you will never get me to agree with you.

First of all, my responses are to your declarations in your OP.
You said: So is sinning necessary? Not according to scripture. Job was perfect according to God, and scripture tells us there will be a people who will no longer sin at the time of the end.

In my understanding, you're talking about "perfect", as in "without sin."
My argument is that there are other definitions of the word perfect.

To say that your explanation is questionable is a compliment at best.
The fact that we have many bible versions is because of translations or transliterations have been established by scholars smarter than me and you.
Considering your first proof-text in the OP Job 1:8. The ESV renders Strong's h8535 " blameless" not "perfect" as in "never sinning."
Your second proof-text rom the KJV
Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

ESV
until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,[fn] to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,

God's is calling us to righteousness by faith , apart from the law. You're presenting a backdoor argument about righteous perfection by keeping the law.

Gary K · Nov 6, 2023

Cribstyl said:
First of all, my responses are to your declarations in your OP.
You said: So is sinning necessary? Not according to scripture. Job was perfect according to God, and scripture tells us there will be a people who will no longer sin at the time of the end.

In my understanding, you're talking about "perfect", as in "without sin."
My argument is that there are other definitions of the word perfect.

To say that your explanation is questionable is a compliment at best.
The fact that we have many bible versions is because of translations or transliterations have been established by scholars smarter than me and you.
Considering your first proof-text in the OP Job 1:8. The ESV renders Strong's h8535 " blameless" not "perfect" as in "never sinning."
Your second proof-text rom the KJV
Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

ESV
until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,[fn] to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,

God's is calling us to righteousness by faith , apart from the law. You're presenting a backdoor argument about righteous perfection by keeping the law.

What does blameless in moral terms mean to you?

Here is the dictionary definition.

Adjective: blameless bleym-lus

Free of guilt; not subject to blame
"has lived a blameless life";
- inculpable, irreproachable, unimpeachable

See also: clean-handed, guiltless, innocent

If you look down towards the bottom of the definition it gives synonyms of blameless. Here is the dictionary definition of innocent and guiltless.

Adjective: innocent i-nu-sunt

Free from evil or guilt
"an innocent child"; "the principle that one is innocent until proved guilty";
- guiltless, clean-handed

Lacking intent or capacity to injure
"an innocent prank";
- innocuous

Free from sin
- impeccant, sinless

Lacking in sophistication or worldliness
"a child's innocent stare";
- ingenuous

Not knowledgeable about something specified
"American tourists wholly innocent of French";
- unacquainted

Adjective: guiltless gilt-lus

Free from evil or guilt
- innocent, clean-handed

So just how does that change the meaning of perfect in a moral sense?

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 7, 2023

Gary K said:
Let's look at what Paul has to say about perfection.

I think this is enough to demonstrate the truth. Paul believed in the possibility of moral perfection through the power of God. IOWs he fully believed we are capable of keeping the commandments of God.

The problem with this is that no one has yet been able to achieve sinless perfection. Even Paul himself said that he had not attained perfection but he was moving forward so that one day he will attain resurrection from the dead. The reality is what John said in 1 John 1:8: "If I say I have no sin, I deceive myself and the truth is not in me." So, the truth within us shows us that although the penalty and power of sin has gone, the presence of sin is still with us.

Gary K · Nov 7, 2023

Watchman1 said:
The problem with this is that no one has yet been able to achieve sinless perfection. Even Paul himself said that he had not attained perfection but he was moving forward so that one day he will attain resurrection from the dead. The reality is what John said in 1 John 1:8: "If I say I have no sin, I deceive myself and the truth is not in me." So, the truth within us shows us that although the penalty and power of sin has gone, the presence of sin is still with us.

Yeah, both John and Paul said that. But they also said a lot of other things too.

1John 1: 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

As soon as someone says sinning isn't necessary everyone jumps to the conclusion they are saying sinless. There's a huge difference between not sinning and being sinless. We will always be dinful human beings on this earth, but we don't have to sin as Paul so aptly says in Galatians 5.

Galatians 5: 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Notice Paul provides a lot of evidence here that sinning isn't necessary. Walk, live, in the Spirit and you won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh. What's that saying?

Paul then goes on to describe a slew of sins and says those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. He then goes on to describe the fruits of the Spirit. He includes faith in that list and tells us there is nothing in the list that breaks any law. By definition that includes God's law. The list includes faith and that means both Bible definitions of sin.

1John 4: 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans11: 23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

John goes on with this theme.

1John 3: 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

So according to both John and Paul it is possible to live without sinning. Notice also they did not say be sinless.

Dan2255 · Nov 7, 2023

Gary k there is a big difference between sin and sinning. It is written that the Lord looked down on mankind and said there was none righteous no not one. The Pharisees believe that sin was many things. Such as not washing your hands before you eat. Or if you violated any part of the Mosaic law, the Ten Commandments or precepts that were written down. But we see they didn’t understand the difference between sin and sinning. It is written that the Lord word send his Holy Spirit to reprove sin. Meaning he was going to tell us the sin that keeps us from his righteousness and why men are condemned. He went on to say sin was because they have not put their trust in Christ. This is the sin that sends people to condemnation.
As for sinning as long as we are in the flesh we will sin. The difference between a saved person sinning verses the lost sinning is the lost is not convicted by what they do. Whereas Paul describes a saved person conflict. Paul wrote I desires to do good and evil is present, I desires to do evil and good is present. A saved person has a war within himself but the lost has no conflict. It is also written Christ died for our sins. Through Christ our sins are forgiven. If a man believes he can live in this world without committing sins after becoming saved is greatly deceived. If any man judges his righteousness by the law is under the curse of the law. The curse was and is this if you violate just one of the 10 commandments you are guilty of them all.
If you want to know the commands that the Lord requires of us there is just two. 1 that which you received remains within you and 2 that you love one another. Lov fulfills the whole Law. The apostle wrote if a person says they love God and hates his brother is a liar, the law of God is not in them. The key phrase is the love of God is not in them. This means they do not possess the fruits of the Holy Spirit. The early Christian’s walked in the fear of the Lord and in the Comfort of the Holy Spirit. This means they hated evil and possessed the Holy Spirit.
Hope this helps. I didn’t post scriptures because you can seek them if you desire. If what I said you disagree you won’t believe it when you read it. Always know that once your are saved you need not man teach you but the Father will teach you all truth.

Gary K · Nov 7, 2023

Dan2255 said:
Gary k there is a big difference between sin and sinning. It is written that the Lord looked down on mankind and said there was none righteous no not one. The Pharisees believe that sin was many things. Such as not washing your hands before you eat. Or if you violated any part of the Mosaic law, the Ten Commandments or precepts that were written down. But we see they didn’t understand the difference between sin and sinning. It is written that the Lord word send his Holy Spirit to reprove sin. Meaning he was going to tell us the sin that keeps us from his righteousness and why men are condemned. He went on to say sin was because they have not put their trust in Christ. This is the sin that sends people to condemnation.
As for sinning as long as we are in the flesh we will sin. The difference between a saved person sinning verses the lost sinning is the lost is not convicted by what they do. Whereas Paul describes a saved person conflict. Paul wrote I desires to do good and evil is present, I desires to do evil and good is present. A saved person has a war within himself but the lost has no conflict. It is also written Christ died for our sins. Through Christ our sins are forgiven. If a man believes he can live in this world without committing sins after becoming saved is greatly deceived. If any man judges his righteousness by the law is under the curse of the law. The curse was and is this if you violate just one of the 10 commandments you are guilty of them all.
If you want to know the commands that the Lord requires of us there is just two. 1 that which you received remains within you and 2 that you love one another. Lov fulfills the whole Law. The apostle wrote if a person says they love God and hates his brother is a liar, the law of God is not in them. The key phrase is the love of God is not in them. This means they do not possess the fruits of the Holy Spirit. The early Christian’s walked in the fear of the Lord and in the Comfort of the Holy Spirit. This means they hated evil and possessed the Holy Spirit.
Hope this helps. I didn’t post scriptures because you can seek them if you desire. If what I said you disagree you won’t believe it when you read it. Always know that once your are saved you need not man teach you but the Father will teach you all truth.

That is not what Paul, John, God or a bunch of other Bible authors say.

God said Job was perfect and upright. I've demonstrated that both Paul and John say that sinning is not necessary. Unless you want to go back through this entire thread and demonstrate how each verse I've used is wrong every verse I've used still stands. You can choose not believe them, but your belief doesn't make them not true. That's simply your opinion vs scripture. I'll stick with scripture.

Here are a few more authors.

Ezekiel 36: 25 ¶Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

1Chronicle 29: 14 But who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly after this sort? for all things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee.*n2*n3
15 For we are strangers before thee, and sojourners, as were all our fathers: our days on the earth are as a shadow, and there is none abiding.*n4
16 O Lord our God, all this store that we have prepared to build thee an house for thine holy name cometh of thine hand, and is all thine own.
17 I know also, my God, that thou triest the heart, and hast pleasure in uprightness. As for me, in the uprightness of mine heart I have willingly offered all these things: and now have I seen with joy thy people, which are present here, to offer willingly unto thee.*n5
18 O Lord God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, our fathers, keep this for ever in the imagination of the thoughts of the heart of thy people, and prepare their heart unto thee:*n6
19 And give unto Solomon my son a perfect heart, to keep thy commandments, thy testimonies, and thy statutes, and to do all these things, and to build the palace, for the which I have made provision.

Psalm 18: 32 It is God that girdeth me with strength, and maketh my way perfect.

Matthew 5: 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Luke 6:
39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

Do you really think God is so cruel He tells us to do things that we cannot do even with the power of the HS dwelling within us so He can condemn us? That God is in any way cruel is not a view of Him that I will ever accept.

Cribstyl · Nov 7, 2023

Gary K said:
That is not what Paul, John, God or a bunch of other Bible authors say.

God said Job was perfect and upright. I've demonstrated that both Paul and John say that sinning is not necessary. Unless you want to go back through this entire thread and demonstrate how each verse I've used is wrong every verse I've used still stands. You can choose not believe them, but your belief doesn't make them not true. That's simply your opinion vs scripture. I'll stick with scripture.

Here are a few more authors.

Do you really think God is so cruel He tells us to do things that we cannot do even with the power of the HS dwelling within us so He can condemn us? That God is in any way cruel is not a view of Him that I will ever accept.

There is a text saying: ALL HAVE SINNED AND COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD. true or false. If it's true, then your rigid understanding of "perfect" is questionable.

Gary K · Nov 7, 2023

Cribstyl said:
There is a text saying: ALL HAVE SINNED AND COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD. true or false. If it's true, then your rigid understanding of "perfect" is questionable.

My belief is not rigid. It is scriptural. I notice you haven't gone back and disproved every one of the texts I have used. Why not?

Dan2255 · Nov 8, 2023

Gary K said:
That is not what Paul, John, God or a bunch of other Bible authors say.

God said Job was perfect and upright. I've demonstrated that both Paul and John say that sinning is not necessary. Unless you want to go back through this entire thread and demonstrate how each verse I've used is wrong every verse I've used still stands. You can choose not believe them, but your belief doesn't make them not true. That's simply your opinion vs scripture. I'll stick with scripture.

Here are a few more authors.

Do you really think God is so cruel He tells us to do things that we cannot do even with the power of the HS dwelling within us so He can condemn us? That God is in any way cruel is not a view of Him that I will ever accept.

What makes a person perfect in the eyes of my Father? Was it works? Was job perfect in the eyes of my Father because of works or by Faith? Was Abraham justified by works or by faith? No was has ever kept the Ten Commandments completely. Perfection is through faith and not by works. As it is said if righteousness could have come by a law one would have been given. It is also written that my Father so loved the world that he gave his Son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. Salvation is a gift not of works. Even the trust or belief you have is given to you by my Father who gives it to us through the gifts of the Holy Spirit. So when a person receives the Holy Spirit these gifts is what enables us to serve the Father through his Son. It is also shown to us that Abraham believed the Father and his actions proved he trusted in what he was told and not understanding went out looking for the Land which the Father had promised him. Those in Christ have works but they are the works that come from the Holy Spirit.

Gary K · Nov 8, 2023

Dan2255 said:
What makes a person perfect in the eyes of my Father? Was it works? Was job perfect in the eyes of my Father because of works or by Faith? Was Abraham justified by works or by faith? No was has ever kept the Ten Commandments completely. Perfection is through faith and not by works. As it is said if righteousness could have come by a law one would have been given. It is also written that my Father so loved the world that he gave his Son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. Salvation is a gift not of works. Even the trust or belief you have is given to you by my Father who gives it to us through the gifts of the Holy Spirit. So when a person receives the Holy Spirit these gifts is what enables us to serve the Father through his Son. It is also shown to us that Abraham believed the Father and his actions proved he trusted in what he was told and not understanding went out looking for the Land which the Father had promised him. Those in Christ have works but they are the works that come from the Holy Spirit.

I guess you're not very familiar with the book of Job.

Job 31: 16 If I have withheld the poor from their desire, or have caused the eyes of the widow to fail;
17 Or have eaten my morsel myself alone, and the fatherless hath not eaten thereof;
18 (For from my youth he was brought up with me, as with a father, and I have guided her from my mother’s womb*n3
19 If I have seen any perish for want of clothing, or any poor without covering;
20 If his loins have not blessed me, and if he were not warmed with the fleece of my sheep;
21 If I have lifted up my hand against the fatherless, when I saw my help in the gate:
22 Then let mine arm fall from my shoulder blade, and mine arm be broken from the bone.*n4

Job understood love for others is the basis of the law of God.

Here is more from Job along these lines.

Job 31:
24 If I have made gold my hope, or have said to the fine gold, Thou art my confidence;
25 If I rejoiced because my wealth was great, and because mine hand had gotten much;*n5
26 If I beheld the sun when it shined, or the moon walking in brightness;*n6*n7
27 And my heart hath been secretly enticed, or my mouth hath kissed my hand:*n8
28 This also were an iniquity to be punished by the judge: for I should have denied the God that is above.
29 If I rejoiced at the destruction of him that hated me, or lifted up myself when evil found him:
30 Neither have I suffered my mouth to sin by wishing a curse to his soul.*n9
31 If the men of my tabernacle said not, Oh that we had of his flesh! we cannot be satisfied.
32 The stranger did not lodge in the street: but I opened my doors to the traveller.*n10
33 If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom:*n11
34 Did I fear a great multitude, or did the contempt of families terrify me, that I kept silence, and went not out of the door?
35 Oh that one would hear me! behold, my desire is, that the Almighty would answer me, and that mine adversary had written a book.*n12
36 Surely I would take it upon my shoulder, and bind it as a crown to me.
37 I would declare unto him the number of my steps; as a prince would I go near unto him.
38 If my land cry against me, or that the furrows likewise thereof complain;*n13
39 If I have eaten the fruits thereof without money, or have caused the owners thereof to lose their life:*n14*n15
40 Let thistles grow instead of wheat, and cockle instead of barley. The words of Job are ended.*n16

Job 9: 17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.
18 He will not suffer me to take my breath, but filleth me with bitterness.
19 If I speak of strength, lo, he is strong: and if of judgment, who shall set me a time to plead?
20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.
21 Though I were perfect, yet would I not know my soul: I would despise my life.

This demonstrates that Job was not proud of himself. He didn't have a big ego. He knew who his righteousness came from.

The following shows that even Job's three friends understood what righteous behavior consisted of. Funny that they accused Job of what he denied doing and wanted his case put directly before God.

Job 24: 1 Why, seeing times are not hidden from the Almighty, do they that know him not see his days?
2 Some remove the landmarks; they violently take away flocks, and feed thereof.*n1
3 They drive away the ass of the fatherless, they take the widow’s ox for a pledge.
4 They turn the needy out of the way: the poor of the earth hide themselves together.
5 Behold, as wild asses in the desert, go they forth to their work; rising betimes for a prey: the wilderness yieldeth food for them and for their children.
6 They reap every one his corn in the field: and they gather the vintage of the wicked.*n2*n3
7 They cause the naked to lodge without clothing, that they have no covering in the cold.
8 They are wet with the showers of the mountains, and embrace the rock for want of a shelter.
9 They pluck the fatherless from the breast, and take a pledge of the poor.
10 They cause him to go naked without clothing, and they take away the sheaf from the hungry;
11 Which make oil within their walls, and tread their winepresses, and suffer thirst.
12 Men groan from out of the city, and the soul of the wounded crieth out: yet God layeth not folly to them.
13 They are of those that rebel against the light; they know not the ways thereof, nor abide in the paths thereof.

Job 42: 5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

Job 42: 7 ¶And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

This demonstrates that Job knew God intimately and Jesus said the following:

John 17: 1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Dan2255 · Nov 8, 2023

Sounds to me job was perfect in the Lord’s eyes because he loved his neighbor as himself. Examples like job were to teach us. We are made perfect in God’s love. His love is placed in our heart as being one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit. We are what we are made in the image of Christ by receiving his Holy Spirit. Are you trying to justify your salvation by works or by Christ in us. Of course those in Christ will produce works of righteousness. As the command says love they neighbor as thy self. This we will do if The Father has placed his love in our heart.

Gary K · Nov 8, 2023

Dan2255 said:
Sounds to me job was perfect in the Lord’s eyes because he loved his neighbor as himself. Examples like job were to teach us. We are made perfect in God’s love. His love is placed in our heart as being one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit. We are what we are made in the image of Christ by receiving his Holy Spirit. Are you trying to justify your salvation by works or by Christ in us. Of course those in Christ will produce works of righteousness. As the command says love they neighbor as thy self. This we will do if The Father has placed his love in our heart.

What does it look like to you?

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 8, 2023

Dan2255 said:
What makes a person perfect in the eyes of my Father? Was it works? Was job perfect in the eyes of my Father because of works or by Faith? Was Abraham justified by works or by faith? No was has ever kept the Ten Commandments completely. Perfection is through faith and not by works. As it is said if righteousness could have come by a law one would have been given. It is also written that my Father so loved the world that he gave his Son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. Salvation is a gift not of works. Even the trust or belief you have is given to you by my Father who gives it to us through the gifts of the Holy Spirit. So when a person receives the Holy Spirit these gifts is what enables us to serve the Father through his Son. It is also shown to us that Abraham believed the Father and his actions proved he trusted in what he was told and not understanding went out looking for the Land which the Father had promised him. Those in Christ have works but they are the works that come from the Holy Spirit.

None of us are anywhere near perfect. In fact we are totally imperfect. There is only one who is perfect, and He is Jesus Christ. We trust by faith in His perfection and His righteousness. When we walk in the light as Jesus is in the light, His blood cleanses us from all sin. How? We are not trusting in our ability to become more holy than what we are. We are walking in total dependence on His righteousness, that in Him we are a holy priesthood, totally clean and perfect in Him. The moment we get our eyes off Christ and stray from the light wherein He is walking, we see our own sinfulness and become conflicted and fall into despair. The remedy is not to struggle to try and improve ourselves, but to get back into the light with Jesus. We do this by obeying the Scripture: "Come boldly to the throne of grace that we may find mercy and grace to help in our time of need."

Gary K · Nov 8, 2023

Watchman1 said:
None of us are anywhere near perfect. In fact we are totally imperfect. There is only one who is perfect, and He is Jesus Christ. We trust by faith in His perfection and His righteousness. When we walk in the light as Jesus is in the light, His blood cleanses us from all sin. How? We are not trusting in our ability to become more holy than what we are. We are walking in total dependence on His righteousness, that in Him we are a holy priesthood, totally clean and perfect in Him. The moment we get our eyes off Christ and stray from the light wherein He is walking, we see our own sinfulness and become conflicted and fall into despair. The remedy is not to struggle to try and improve ourselves, but to get back into the light with Jesus. We do this by obeying the Scripture: "Come boldly to the throne of grace that we may find mercy and grace to help in our time of need."

It's too bad you don't believe scripture.

Gary K · Nov 9, 2023

Watchman1 said:
None of us are anywhere near perfect. In fact we are totally imperfect. There is only one who is perfect, and He is Jesus Christ. We trust by faith in His perfection and His righteousness. When we walk in the light as Jesus is in the light, His blood cleanses us from all sin. How? We are not trusting in our ability to become more holy than what we are. We are walking in total dependence on His righteousness, that in Him we are a holy priesthood, totally clean and perfect in Him. The moment we get our eyes off Christ and stray from the light wherein He is walking, we see our own sinfulness and become conflicted and fall into despair. The remedy is not to struggle to try and improve ourselves, but to get back into the light with Jesus. We do this by obeying the Scripture: "Come boldly to the throne of grace that we may find mercy and grace to help in our time of need."

I owe you an apology. I agree with what you said, just not your conclusions. Walking in total dependence on God allows us to obey Him and keep His law.

The way we are to struggle to make ourselves better is to spend more time with God in prayer and studying His word. not to try to change our behavior. That cannot work but knowing Jesus better and better will.

John 17: 1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Knowing Jesus is eternal life.

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 10, 2023

Gary K said:
I owe you an apology. I agree with what you said, just not your conclusions. Walking in total dependence on God allows us to obey Him and keep His law.

The way we are to struggle to make ourselves better is to spend more time with God in prayer and studying His word. not to try to change our behavior. That cannot work but knowing Jesus better and better will.

Knowing Jesus is eternal life.

The Scripture says that we are His workmanship in Christ. He does what we can't do. We depend on Him and walk in the light as He is in the light, and the Holy Spirit writes His law on our hearts and gives us the will and strength to walk in it.

Gary K · Nov 10, 2023

Watchman1 said:
The Scripture says that we are His workmanship in Christ. He does what we can't do. We depend on Him and walk in the light as He is in the light, and the Holy Spirit writes His law on our hearts and gives us the will and strength to walk in it.

I agree. He is the one capable of keeping us from sinning.

I think John 17 is one of the most important chapters in the Bible as it teaches pure righteousness by faith through God dwelling within us. The entire chapter is based entirely upon the love of God. As God is the creator and all other persons are created beings it is extremely illogical to believe that anything one of His created beings brings into existence is more powerful than He is. i.e. sin.

Paleouss · Nov 11, 2023

Hi Gary, I hope your week was a good one.

I read your title, "Is sinning necessary" and then read what you wrote. I must admit, I'm confused when comparing your title with what you write. When I read the title "necessary", I think of something being required. For example, Is sin necessary (required) so that good may abound. But of course this is false and we can find scripture to tell us such. This is just to say, I find your title confusing me as to what you are asking. You don't seem to mean 'required' in the sense I wrote above, occording to my evaluation of your responses.

Then after reading your title, I read the first thing you write and it is dealing with "perfection". This immediately makes one think, at least me and what appears to be most of your resondents, that what you mean is people can be "perfect" as Jesus Christ is perfect. But your responses indicate that this is not at all what you mean. So what do you mean to say?

Who or what concept are you specifically arguing against?

Is sinning necessary

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