Is Scripture Reality?

[Jersey]

Just how does a Christian explain how scripture can be part of reality?

I've read through the bible a couple times but for the life of me I just can't bring myself to accept scripture as anything other than non-reality. Which is why I never became a Christian.

What I'm trying to find out here is. How does a Christian who lives in the same natural world as the atheist adjust reality to fit their beliefs from the scriptures they read in the bible?

 

[seashale76]

Find it a bit fanciful do you? We adjust reality to fit our beliefs do we? Perhaps the thought hasn't occurred to you that some of us, at one time, did not hold to preconceived beliefs of a Christian nature, but rather that we have had experiences that convince us that perhaps our preconceived beliefs of a decidedly non-Christian nature were erroneous and decidedly lacking? Reality is what it is. One's perception of reality is the thing that may be incorrect. You assume that your perception isn't skewed, we assume that it is ours that isn't.

 

[unkern]

There is alot of data supporting the bible, they have found lots of documents and sites that support the bible. Here are some to check out Tacitus, Josephus. Theres plenty more stuff. You should check out "Evidence that demands a verdict"

 

[dead2self]

I was like you my friend. An ardent evolutionist who thought the Bible was fanciful nonsense. Then I started to see evidence for the Bible and it's stories. At the same time I started to see through some of the supposed science backing evolution and the big bang and all that. The obvious reality you see in textbooks is not as air tight as it seems. The fanciful nonsense in the Bible is not so far fetched as it seems. There is a lot of proof backing up the Biblical acount of creation and the earl days of it's history. Furthermore, much of the human activity recorded in the Bible is authenticated by outside sources.

We do not need to adjust reality to fit scripture. We need to adjust reality to deny it. It takes far more faith to be an atheist or evolutionist thatn a Christian creationist.

 

[salida]

Hmm, well scripture is the most realistic thing in the world and truthful. The Bible has many characteristics in it that it could only be written by God; and its the most true book in the world. For example, it has hundreds of detailed prophesies in it that has come true and more to be fulfilled. I have studied other religions and none of them have this. God is all His divine wisdom sent His Son to save us from spiritual death. Just like a doctor would treat a persons physical medical condition and only had one treatment possible. Read The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell (it would stand up in court) and Examine the Evidence by Muncaster(a former athiest). The unfortunate reality is that man's will triumphs the overwhelming evidence of the Bible because they don't want it to be true. Why? Because they can't live life they way they want. After one receives the Holy Spirit which gives one the power to live a christian life -this is more real than the world you see. No one can tell you different after this experience. Also, www.reasons.org - about science and belief. God created science not man.

Biblical Evidence – This is a very small amount of information
out of large amounts of information out there.

Internal Evidences-Prophesies that are confirmed with Bible;

mentioning only a few – but there are hundreds.

Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen. 49:10, Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Luke’s time period is 60-70 AD)

Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5, Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60-70 AD)

Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14/Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(60-70 AD)

Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 – four kingdoms are described in the interpretation
of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek – Daniel 8:21, 10:20/ and a fourth great kingdom to follow which was part iron and clay – which is the
Roman Empire – during this empire, Christ came and the church was established – Daniel 2:44.

Historical Accuracy

The Bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events of hundreds of years ago, yet
none of them has been proven to be incorrect.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents)
New Testament – starts at 25 years – between the original and surviving copies
Homer- starts at 500 years/Demosthenes – at 1400 years/Plato – at 1200 years/
Caesar – at 1000 years

Number of Manuscript Copies

New Testament – 5,686/Homer – 643/Demosthenes – 200/Plato – 7/Caesar – 10

Consistency – Written by 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years, and has no
Internal inconsistencies.

Claim of Inspiration- It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Tim 3:16-17). No other religious book makes such claims.

External Evidences

(Prophesies Outside the Bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never to be built again- and they haven’t.
Niveveh – Nahum 1:10, 3:7, 15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon – Isaiah 13:1-22
Tyre -Ezekiel 26:1-28

Bible before Science

He hangs the earth on nothing – Job 26:7
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago – some scholars think it could have been even 3000
years ago)
Note: Man only knew the above for 350 years.
Earth is a sphere – Isaiah 40:22/Air has weight – Job 28:25/
Gravity – Job 26:7, Job 38: 31-33/Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6

Documents that Prove Bible is True

Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles

Archealogical Evidence (Still adding to this list today- it hasn’t stopped)
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

 

[salida]

Hmm, well scripture is the most realistic thing in the world and truthful. The Bible has many characteristics in it that it could only be written by God; and its the most true book in the world. For example, it has hundreds of detailed prophesies in it that has come true and more to be fulfilled. I have studied other religions and none of them have this. God is all His divine wisdom sent His Son to save us from spiritual death. Just like a doctor would treat a persons physical medical condition and only had one treatment possible. Read The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell (it would stand up in court) and Examine the Evidence by Muncaster(a former athiest). The unfortunate reality is that man's will triumphs the overwhelming evidence of the Bible because they don't want it to be true. Why? Because they can't live life the way they want. After one receives the Holy Spirit which gives one the power to live a christian life -this is more real than the world you see. No one can tell you different after this experience. Also, www.reasons.org - about science and belief. God created science not man.

Biblical Evidence – This is a very small amount of information
out of large amounts of information out there.

Internal Evidences-Prophesies that are confirmed with Bible;

mentioning only a few – but there are hundreds.

Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen. 49:10, Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Luke’s time period is 60-70 AD)

Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5, Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60-70 AD)

Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14/Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(60-70 AD)

Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 – four kingdoms are described in the interpretation
of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek – Daniel 8:21, 10:20/ and a fourth great kingdom to follow which was part iron and clay – which is the
Roman Empire – during this empire, Christ came and the church was established – Daniel 2:44.

Historical Accuracy

The Bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events of hundreds of years ago, yet
none of them has been proven to be incorrect.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents)
New Testament – starts at 25 years – between the original and surviving copies
Homer- starts at 500 years/Demosthenes – at 1400 years/Plato – at 1200 years/
Caesar – at 1000 years

Number of Manuscript Copies

New Testament – 5,686/Homer – 643/Demosthenes – 200/Plato – 7/Caesar – 10

Consistency – Written by 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years, and has no
Internal inconsistencies.

Claim of Inspiration- It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Tim 3:16-17). No other religious book makes such claims.

External Evidences

(Prophesies Outside the Bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never to be built again- and they haven’t.
Niveveh – Nahum 1:10, 3:7, 15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon – Isaiah 13:1-22
Tyre -Ezekiel 26:1-28

Bible before Science

He hangs the earth on nothing – Job 26:7
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago – some scholars think it could have been even 3000
years ago)
Note: Man only knew the above for 350 years.
Earth is a sphere – Isaiah 40:22/Air has weight – Job 28:25/
Gravity – Job 26:7, Job 38: 31-33/Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6

Documents that Prove Bible is True

Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles

Archealogical Evidence (Still adding to this list today- it hasn’t stopped)
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

 

[Jersey]

Find it a bit fanciful do you? We adjust reality to fit our beliefs do we? Perhaps the thought hasn't occurred to you that some of us, at one time, did not hold to preconceived beliefs of a Christian nature, but rather that we have had experiences that convince us that perhaps our preconceived beliefs of a decidedly non-Christian nature were erroneous and decidedly lacking? Reality is what it is. One's perception of reality is the thing that may be incorrect. You assume that your perception isn't skewed, we assume that it is ours that isn't.

All you seem to be doing in your explanation is answering questions with more questions that really doesn't answer my original question that simply asks:

What I'm trying to find out here is. How does a Christian who lives in the same natural world as the atheist adjust reality to fit their beliefs from the scriptures they read in the bible?

 

[Jersey]

There is alot of data supporting the bible, they have found lots of documents and sites that support the bible. Here are some to check out Tacitus, Josephus. Theres plenty more stuff. You should check out "Evidence that demands a verdict"

Evidence for what? Don't you think the title of his book should read:

"Evidence that demands belief" ????

Because I don't see to many things in the bible that comes close to reality. Does science support the creation story in Genesis in any shape or form? Does science claim that the first human was created out of dust and the woman from his rib? Does science confirm the earth is flat and held up on pillars?

 

[ebia]

Just how does a Christian explain how scripture can be part of reality?

Scripture isn't trying to describe the same aspect of reality that, say, science is trying to describe. Scripture is about the reality behind the reality, the story of what is wrong with creation and what God is doing to put it right.

 

[Jersey]

Scripture isn't trying to describe the same aspect of reality that, say, science is trying to describe. Scripture is about the reality behind the reality, the story of what is wrong with creation and what God is doing to put it right.

Reality behind the reality? What does that mean exactly?

 

[OldChurchGuy]

Just how does a Christian explain how scripture can be part of reality?

I've read through the bible a couple times but for the life of me I just can't bring myself to accept scripture as anything other than non-reality. Which is why I never became a Christian.

What I'm trying to find out here is. How does a Christian who lives in the same natural world as the atheist adjust reality to fit their beliefs from the scriptures they read in the bible?

There seems to be a lot of discussion here without a clear understanding of terms used.

How do you define reality? Also, can you provide an example of a reality which seems to run contrary to something in the Bible?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

 

[Jersey]

There seems to be a lot of discussion here without a clear understanding of terms used.

How do you define reality? Also, can you provide an example of a reality which seems to run contrary to something in the Bible?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

That's odd. I thought I was the one asking the questions but all you have done so far is answer questions with more questions that really doesn't answer any of my questions. I think you're intelligent enough to understand what reality really is and i don't have to give you a definition. With that said, answer my questions, please and then we can proceed from there. But since you asked, i'll play your little silly game and give you a brief answer. Reality is what is real; it is anything that conforms with fact. Do you find anything like that in scripture? We can start with the virgin birth and the resurrection. Are they part of reality? Do they conform with fact? IF they don't then what category do you think they should be placed in?

 

[Hog Red]

You've read the Bible through twice!!!! thats more than a lot of Christians but you've been reading someone elses mail.


42Jesus said unto them, "If God were your Father, ye would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of Myself, but He sent Me.


43Why do ye not understand My speech? Even because ye cannot hear My Word!

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe Me not.

46Which of you convicteth Me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe Me?
47He that is of God heareth God's words; ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."

 

[Jersey]

You've read the Bible through twice!!!! thats more than a lot of Christians but you've been reading someone elses mail.


42Jesus said unto them, "If God were your Father, ye would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of Myself, but He sent Me.


43Why do ye not understand My speech? Even because ye cannot hear My Word!

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe Me not.

46Which of you convicteth Me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe Me?
47He that is of God heareth God's words; ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."

Are these the only scriptures you can think of? Try going through some of the books in the OT. Any careful objective reader will conclude it is not inspiration of a super being capable of loving. It's more like a group of humans got together and put words in the mouth of God and claimed it as inspiration. And who's mail do you think i've been reading? My name isn't George W. Bush.

 

[Hog Red]

Are these the only scriptures you can think of? Try going through some of the books in the OT. Any careful objective reader will conclude it is not inspiration of a super being capable of loving. It's more like a group of humans got together and put words in the mouth of God and claimed it as inspiration. And who's mail do you think i've been reading? My name isn't George W. Bush.

No I can think of a lot more but that one had your name on it.

 

[ebia]

Reality behind the reality? What does that mean exactly?

Scripture is about the bigger picture than simply the mechanics of creation and chronology of history. It's concerned with relationship between the creator God and his creation. So, for example, the genealogies in the bible are not meant to be a very muddled way for God to say whole old the universe is, but rather a very clear way of tying people in general, and Jesus of Nazareth in particular, back through David... Judah... Jacob... Abraham... Noah... Adam... God. The Noah story is an explanation of why God cannot simply wipe out evil by wiping out evil people, and so on.

 

[OldChurchGuy]

That's odd. I thought I was the one asking the questions but all you have done so far is answer questions with more questions that really doesn't answer any of my questions. I think you're intelligent enough to understand what reality really is and i don't have to give you a definition. With that said, answer my questions, please and then we can proceed from there. But since you asked, i'll play your little silly game and give you a brief answer. Reality is what is real; it is anything that conforms with fact. Do you find anything like that in scripture? We can start with the virgin birth and the resurrection. Are they part of reality? Do they conform with fact? IF they don't then what category do you think they should be placed in?

"Reality is what is real; it is anything that conforms with fact." Thanks for the clarification.

Regarding the virgin birth reflecting reality. It is my understanding both the writers of Matthew and Luke wrote about the virgin birth in their Gospel narratives to establish credibility of Jesus as God incarnate. For their particular audiences (Jewish for Matthew and Greek for Luke) adding this story was important.

So, the question would seem to be do the virgin birth stories conform with fact? The answer is I don't know. I cannot prove Joseph and Mary existed. Outside of a few writings not in the Bible written soon after Jesus' death, I can't even prove that Jesus existed (depending on who you talk to these writings either support the existense of Jesus or were written after the fact to justify the existense of Jesus). Because I believe that God exists and God is responsible for the entire known universe, then it would seem that causing a woman to be pregnant without a mortal father is not beyond His ability. Since I lack a time machine, I confess I do not know the true facts regarding Jesus' birth. On the other hand, no one else can prove it one way or the other.

I have no problem with those who accept the virgin birth story as literal and factual. I have no problem with those who question it or even reject it. It is not a matter of being wishy-washy but a conclusion that until we can go back in time and record the actual events then bring the information back to our current time, there is no way to prove the virgin birth is a fact.

Was there a resurrection? Outside of the New Testament writings there is nothing written for the times to substantiate the idea to the best of my knowlede. On the other hand, it seems odd a small group of people (maybe 50 or so) would risk social ridicule not to mention Roman persecution if they didn't believe the resurrection happened. But, again with out a time machine, there is no way to prove the resurrection one way or another.

Religion by its very nature is a matter of faith, not fact. I have faith there was a resurrection. Until irrefutable evidence appears to show there was no resurrection, I am OK with believing a resurrection occurred.

So if I am ignoring reality because I choose to believe in God, so be it.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

 

[Jersey]

No I can think of a lot more but that one had your name on it.

I'm not following what you're trying to say here. What had my name on what?

Since this thread is about reality, may i suggest you at least get real about what it is you're trying to say?

 

[Hog Red]

I'm not following what you're trying to say here. What had my name on what?

Since this thread is about reality, may i suggest you at least get real about what it is you're trying to say?

If the shoe fits wear it.

You want reality?......Look at how complex the universe is, how complex the world is, how complex the human body is, how complex the living cell is and tell me it just all happened at random. That's all the reality I need to believe in the Creator of the Universe. The Bible confirms that for me. You believe what you want which is nothing. BTW, I was praying for you this morning while in my car and it appears to have been right about the time you were posting at 11. I was asking the Holy Spirit to reveal himself to you.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Just how does a Christian explain how scripture can be part of reality?

I've read through the bible a couple times but for the life of me I just can't bring myself to accept scripture as anything other than non-reality. Which is why I never became a Christian.

What I'm trying to find out here is. How does a Christian who lives in the same natural world as the atheist adjust reality to fit their beliefs from the scriptures they read in the bible?

God's word concerns spiritual reality, not scientific reality. The why of things, not the what.

owg