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You mean like having faith that he is really present in the Eucharist? Even if it looks like a plain wheat wafer?
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That is what paul means when he teaches us to walk by faith not sight, and to look at that which is unseen rather than the earthly things we see.
"How readers have it right" is not the issue. It's "What is the authority?"
I'd like you, for once, to actually address the point I made.
HOW DOES TRADITION SOLVE THE PROBLEM YOU POINTED TO (i.e. DIFFERENT INTERPETATIONS)?
You mean like having faith that he is really present in the Eucharist? Even if it looks like a plain wheat wafer?
Deut 8:2 And you shall remember that the Lord your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you and test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not. 3 So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord. 4 Your garments did not wear out on you, nor did your foot swell these forty years. 5 You should know in your heart that as a man chastens his son, so the Lord your God chastens you.
Matthew 4:4 But He answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.[a]
John 6:6 New King James Version (NKJV)
Feeding the Five Thousand
6 After these things Jesus went over the Sea of Galilee, which is the Sea of Tiberias. 2 Then a great multitude followed Him, because they saw His signs which He performed on those who were diseased. 3 And Jesus went up on the mountain, and there He sat with His disciples.
4 Now the Passover, a feast of the Jews, was near. 5 Then Jesus lifted up His eyes, and seeing a great multitude coming toward Him, He said to Philip, Where shall we buy bread, that these may eat? 6 But this He said to test him, for He Himself knew what He would do.
26 Jesus answered them and said, Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.
32 Then Jesus said to them, Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, I have come down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught by God.[e]
8 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.
3 Then Jesus said to them, Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed,[h] and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heavennot as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life
You know, I know people who underline things on greeting cards they send, in order to show that this is meaningful to them, but often it means little. The same can be said for you, copying and pasting Scripture, then bolding and underlining snippets.. Besides, the Church Fathers disagree with your interpretation!
Not to worry. We may not understand but we can just buy a few indulgences and things will be ok.
If Church has all the answers then why do people come onto this forum to exchange ideas? Isn't their church tradition and leaders enough?
"we are not entitled to such license, namely, of affirming whatever we please. For we make Sacred Scripture the rule and the norm of every doctrine. Upon that we are obliged to fix our eyes, and we approve only whatever can be brought into harmony with the intent of these writings." -- St Gregory of Nyssa (c. 330-395)
Scripture is "missing that dogma" or... that dogma is not supported by scripture?
Mormons and JW's could come up with a host of ideas "missing from the Bible" that we would counter with "not at all supported by the Bible". One cannot sweep all error under the rug of "well that is missing from the Bible"
In John 6 -( where many like to go for some sort of transubstantiation idea ) we do not find "some day in the future you will need to bite me" or "someday in the future you will need to eat my flesh" -- Christ said it was already true.
So then the "test" is whether anyone takes that view and bites Him then and there - nobody does it because as He said in John 6 "literal flesh is worthless it is my WORDS that have life".
Same lesson about BREAD that we find in Matt 16 where it is the symbol for teaching.
in Christ,
Bob
There is no division in my church. Paul says we are not saved by works and i agree. Paul says we should learn to do works and i agree. John says we need no teacher and i agree. Its simple and unrebukable. I dont need to defend the Pope because i have no pope. I dont need to defend Ellen White because i dont follow her. I follow no man or woman. I follow only scripture. I dont need to defend that. I have no division and i have peace without conflict.
You must admit you havent been able to refute anything i have said. That may be an indication that i am right. Not that i wish to be right and others wrong, its just that i wish to know the truth which sets us free, and to live in peace with all men.
You are your own pope because you trust only your own interpretation of what's written. And don't tell me you don't interpret Scripture-everybody interprets Scripture. You are a church of one.
Mathew 23:8 But you, do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.
Is that what's important to you? Being right in the argument? We know the Truth if we seek it humbly and honestly. The Catholic Church has done an amazing amount of work on it over the 2000 years of her existence.
Do you want to know what the truth sounds like? I'll tell you. It hurts to hear it, it really does. Its not always pleasant and joyful, but if we embrace it anyway then thats faith. No matter how much it hurts, we cannot close our ears to it. God loves faith. He loves to see people love him enough, and need Him enough to hear his chastening and endure it. Gods chastening isn't joyful but its a blessing regardless. Hes our father. Imagine that concepts. Of course he will discipline us. Amen. That is proof that he loves us and that we are His children. Most people don't want to hear it however. They are like the Israelites who begged God to stop speaking to them on the mountain because they could not bear to hear His voice.
Revelation 3: 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hear the Heavenly Voice
25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, Yet once more I shake[h] not only the earth, but also heaven. 27 Now this, Yet once more, indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may[j] serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Hebrews 12:5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.[a]
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
Context, please. Who was Jesus just criticizing?
They ordained me. I taught myself. Or rather the Lord taught me. Im not boasting, im only wanting to exalt the power of the word. When the scriptures say we need no teacher that is the truth. Don't give me prophets and teachers, just give me the word. This man struggled and stumbled over all the denominations and teachers and the blindness. I cried to God and he didn't forsake me. Thats worthy of an Amen. The Lord is my portion says my soul.
1 John 2:27King James Version (KJV)
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
The Church believes that Christ remains in us for 15 minutes after we consume the Body and Precious Blood. Once the accidents of bread and wine are changed, they are no longer the Body and Blood. Try investigating that!
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