Is science irrational?

[Chriliman]

Are you?

Yes, I am open to having my mind changed based on the truth. Are you the one who is going to show me the truth? Even if you did, wouldn't I have to believe you in order to see it as true?

 

[KCfromNC]

Does it seem like I lack confidence in my beliefs?

Why does it scare you that other people disagree with your guesses about the nature of the god you follow?

 

[Chriliman]

Why does it scare you that other people disagree with your guesses about the nature of the god you follow?

Because the thought of someone denying God and accepting their own desires and being punished eternally for doing so is a scary thought, I wouldn't want that for anyone. Would you?

Of course it's easier to think this isn't a possibility and just ignore it. Or place the blame on God for allowing it, when all He asks is for us to listen to Him because He knows better than any of us because He is God.

Of course it's easier to just lack belief in God so we don't have to face these possible realities.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Yes, I am open to having my mind changed based on the truth

I don't think you are, given your previous comments.

 

[expos4ever]

I didn't evade. I clearly stated that in my opinion the most rational way to understand reality (and I include myself in this reality) is to ask honest questions with the intent of finding the truth.

Not to ask questions with the intent of understanding reality because that would preclude the truth that would make it all make sense to me personally.

Not that difficult to understand.

Like at least one other poster, I find this very difficult to understand.

I think there may be a foundational problem in the way you conceptualize things. It appears that you seem to think that there is a difference between "understanding reality" and "finding the truth". I suggest this is a misleading distinction to draw. You appear to have this notion that there is some special class of knowledge - the "truth" - that somehow "explains" all the other stuff we know (you appear call this other stuff our "understanding of reality").

Can you explain this distinction? I will be surprised if you can since I expect all you will really end up doing is listing items of "religious" doctrinal belief in the category you call "truth", and relegate knowledge acquired through science to the category "understanding reality".

But this produces needless confusion, I suggest.

Here is something we believe from science: Water boils at 100 Celsius.
Here is something we (or some of us at least) believe based on other reasons: Jesus Christ was raised from the dead and lives still in "heaven".

Both are assertions about what "is the case" about reality - they are both "truth" claims. It can be easily shown that water boils at 100 C. The Jesus thing is much more complicated. To the extent that we believe it for reasons other than mere blind faith, we believe it based on historical, cultural, experiential, and philosophical reasons. But it is still a claim about "what is the case".

I think you are only creating confusion by introducing the distinction of "ultimate truth" vs "reality as understood by means such as the scientific method".

 

[Chriliman]

Can you explain this distinction? I will be surprised if you can since I expect all you will really end up doing is listing items of "religious" doctrinal belief in the category you call "truth", and relegate knowledge acquired through science to the category "understanding reality".

I believe there is a truth that can explain everything and that truth is Jesus because he is connected to God the Father.

Here is something we believe from science: Water boils at 100 Celsius.

This is true.

Here is something we (or some of us at least) believe based on other reasons: Jesus Christ was raised from the dead and lives still in "heaven".

If you are a true Christian then you understand that Jesus lives in you. The kingdom of God is within you.

Luke 17:21
"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

 

[bhsmte]

What is scary to me is your misconception of what it means to change your mind about something as significant as God. When changing your mind from believing there is a God to believing there is no God, it may seem like you've overcome some kind of deception and you view overcoming this as a strength.

However, when changing your mind from believing there is no God to believing there is a God, is not a sign of strength, but rather humility, because you've realized you yourself are weak and wretched when compared to this God. All you can do is ask for mercy and forgiveness and His promise is that if you believe in His son Jesus, you will be forgiven and He will have mercy on you.

I don't think the ability to change one's mind is a sign of strength because in order to change your mind you would have to admit you were wrong, either to someone else or yourself. This is a sign of humility.

I disagree.

Accepting new knowledge that may be uncomfortable, but a person has the ability to recognize the validity of it anyway, is a sign of a healthy and open mind and the recognition, no matter how comfy a certain belief may be, it is even more uncomfortable, to lie to yourself and ignore well evidenced reality.

 

[expos4ever]

I believe there is a truth that can explain everything and that truth is Jesus because he is connected to God the Father.

I am not sure exactly what you mean by this statement. Can you articulate "how" the reality of Jesus "explains" that things fall at 9.8 meters per second per second? My answer to that question would be simply this: I believe that God created the universe that way. Is that your view as well?

I share your belief in the reality of Jesus, but I am very skeptical that you have a sensible model of different categories of knowledge. In short, I think you are presenting all these atheists and agnostics here with a kind of parody of what should be a more carefully reasoned apologetic. No offense intended, by the way: it is a difficult task to make such an apologetic. We are, after all, immersed in a world that is inclined to simply dismiss the Christian worldview as so much fantasy when, in fact, I think a reasonable case can be made for it.

 

[bhsmte]

Does it seem like I lack confidence in my beliefs? It is scary how warped one's view of reality can get. Thankfully, bhsmte has stated that he is open to having his mind changed based on the truth. So that's good.

In all honesty, your evasiveness, talking in circles and clear defense mechanisms to protect your belief, are an indication, that your beliefs need constant protection and indicates opposing opinions and evidence, are a threat to you.

Just my opinion, based on the content of your posts.

 

[Chriliman]

I am not sure exactly what you mean by this statement. Can you articulate "how" the reality of Jesus "explains" that things fall at 9.8 meters per second per second? My answer to that question would be simply this: I believe that God created the universe that way. Is that your view as well?

I agree, God created the universe that way, but I also believe everything has a purpose or reason. I believe God does everything for a purpose or reason so that we can understand why He has done certain things. Ultimately, all the knowledge we gain will point to God because He wants us to believe in Him.

I share your belief in the reality of Jesus, but I am very skeptical that you have a sensible model of different categories of knowledge. In short, I think you are presenting all these atheists and agnostics here with a kind of parody of what should be a more carefully reasoned apologetic. No offense intended, by the way: it is a difficult task to make such an apologetic. We are, after all, immersed in a world that is inclined to simply dismiss the Christian worldview as so much fantasy when, in fact, I think a reasonable case can be made for it.

Whether the case is reasonable or not is completely dependent on the person who is subjected to the reasoning you present. You could be the most reasonable Christian they ever met and they still wouldn't believe that what you're saying is true. Of course I think my reasoning is sound, but none of the atheists or agnostics here agree. I know I can't prove God to them, only God can do this. I can help them think about God in new and different ways.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Whether the case is reasonable or not is completely dependent on the person who is subjected to the reasoning you present. You could be the most reasonable Christian they ever met and they still wouldn't believe that what you're saying is true. Of course I think my reasoning is sound, but none of the atheists or agnostics here agree. I know I can't prove God to them, only God can do this. I can help them think about God in new and different ways.

As I mentioned to you before, you're not helping your cause, you're only hurting it. The reason why none of the atheists agree with you is precisely because your reasoning isn't sound. It's been explained to you over and over in multiple threads. And now a Christian is joining in and saying similar things.

Do you actually listen to anyone but yourself?

 

[Chriliman]

As I mentioned to you before, you're not helping your cause, you're only hurting it. The reason why none of the atheists agree with you is precisely because your reasoning isn't sound. It's been explained to you over and over in multiple threads. And now a Christian is joining in and saying similar things.

Do you actually listen to anyone but yourself?

I'm guessing you think your reasoning is sound as well? Otherwise, you'd change it, right?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I'm guessing you think your reasoning is sound as well? Otherwise, you'd change it, right?

I have a good grasp of logic. One of my two majors in college was Philosophy.

 

[HitchSlap]

I'm guessing you think your reasoning is sound as well? Otherwise, you'd change it, right?

If reasoning comports with reality, then sound.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I'm guessing you think your reasoning is sound as well? Otherwise, you'd change it, right?

Oh, and you didn't answer my question:

Do you listen to anyone but yourself?

 

[Chriliman]

Oh, and you didn't answer my question:

Do you listen to anyone but yourself?

Honestly, I think its myself that is the least I want to rely on because I understand that I'm not perfect. I rely on God and those around me who love me.

If expos4ever sees me as a brother in Christ then I'm sure we could rely on each other to be honest with each other.

 

[bhsmte]

Because the thought of someone denying God and accepting their own desires and being punished eternally for doing so is a scary thought, I wouldn't want that for anyone. Would you?

Of course it's easier to think this isn't a possibility and just ignore it. Or place the blame on God for allowing it, when all He asks is for us to listen to Him because He knows better than any of us because He is God.

Of course it's easier to just lack belief in God so we don't have to face these possible realities.

Some people judge whether a potential reality is possible or not with evidence and they don't do well with pretending evidence is present to accept a reality, when there is none.

I appreciate your concern that people who disagree with you will be doomed (2/3 of the worlds population by the way), but fail to seem to comprehend, how others can disagree with you.

So let me ask you a simple question; do you believe your belief in God could be fallible and you are wrong about your belief? Yes, or no please.

 

[bhsmte]

Honestly, I think its myself that is the least I want to rely on because I understand that I'm not perfect. I rely on God and those around me who love me.

If expos4ever sees me as a brother in Christ then I'm sure we could rely on each other to be honest with each other.

You rely on yourself quite a bit, in interpreting what the God you believe in is telling you.

 

[Chriliman]

Some people judge whether a potential reality is possible or not with evidence and they don't do well with pretending evidence is present to accept a reality, when there is none.

I appreciate your concern that people who disagree with you will be doomed (2/3 of the worlds population by the way), but fail to seem to comprehend, how others can disagree with you.

So let me ask you a simple question; do you believe your belief in God could be fallible and you are wrong about your belief? Yes, or no please.

Yes, what I currently believe about God is not 100% accurate because my beliefs are fallible, which is why I rely on Him for correction not myself.

Just because my beliefs are fallible does not automatically mean God must not exist.

My faith in God makes up for my fallible beliefs.

 

[bhsmte]

Yes, what I currently believe about God is not 100% accurate because my beliefs are fallible, which is why I rely on Him for correction not myself.

Just because my beliefs are fallible does not automatically mean God must not exist.

My faith in God makes up for my fallible beliefs.

How does your belief in God make up for your fallible beliefs, when your belief in God could be fallible?

That makes zero sense and is circular.

My belief in God could be fallible, but since I believe in God, it makes up for it????????????????????????????????????