Is Science defined as Truth-seeking?

[Subduction Zone]

Color me careful, not paranoid.

Color you self conscious of your guilt would be more accurate.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

You could have tried to use a quote that is somewhat in context to support your claim.

I can read, and that's what I read. The syndrome is associated with people of generally low ability, not people with low ability in some certain area.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I can read, and that's what I read. The syndrome is associated with people of generally low ability, not people with low ability in some certain area.

If that is the case it should be easy for you to quote from the article where you got that idea from.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Sorry, but you have that backwards. The Kool-Aid drinkers are those that try to claim that the Bible is something that it does not even claim for itself. You do realize that if you want to claim that the Bible is "God's word" that puts a heavy burden of proof upon those making that claim. You would not accept that the Koran or the Vedas are "God's word" without extreme evidence, why should anyone believe you about your holy book?

It is only those who profess to be believers who should probably believe the writings that form the basis of their belief. Atheists need not be concerned.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

If that is the case it should be easy for you to quote from the article where you got that idea from.

Here's a good one.

Dunning-Kruger Effect: Why Incompetent People Think They Are Superior

DK cannot be applied to me as I am not an 'incompetent' person.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It is only those who profess to be believers who should probably believe the writings that form the basis of their belief. Atheists need not be concerned.

Only if those believers have no interest in knowing what actually happened. Even when I was a Christian I did not believe the myth since it required that one believe in a lying God. To me that was sacrilege.
The first people that refuted the flood were early Christian geologists looking for evidence to confirm the flood. Instead they found out that it never happened.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Only if those believers have no interest in knowing what actually happened. Even when I was a Christian I did not believe the myth since it required that one believe in a lying God. To me that was sacrilege.
The first people that refuted the flood were early Christian geologists looking for evidence to confirm the flood. Instead they found out that it never happened.

That's because the flood didn't leave the evidence they believed it would leave. They assumed the wrong flood model.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I saw no quote. Do you know how to quote something? And to be valid a quote has to be in context. Otherwise you are in effect supporting the claim that there is no God since the Bible can be quote mined at least twelve different times saying "there is no God". Quotes need to be in context to be valid.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That's because the flood didn't leave the evidence they believed it would leave. They assumed the wrong flood model.

That is not true. You claimed something that simply would not happen with moving water.

Floods that were infinitely smaller, that had much slower rate of inundation and recession have left evidence. Your massive flood would have left massive evidence. That is a fact that you can't handwave away.

And you still have no answer to why waking up in a bathtub of ice missing a kidney is not a reality.

 

[TBDude65]

Science is a process/method for discerning that which is likely factual from that which is not via evidence and experiments, and uses both inductive and deductive reasoning.

The alternate definition of science is the accumulated knowledge via the scientific method

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I saw no quote. Do you know how to quote something? And to be valid a quote has to be in context. Otherwise you are in effect supporting the claim that there is no God since the Bible can be quote mined at least twelve different times saying "there is no God". Quotes need to be in context to be valid.

Quote, schmote. I gave you the whole article.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Quote, schmote. I gave you the whole article.

Yes, you appear to have misunderstood the whole article since you cannot find any part of it that supports your claim. And actually I linked the article.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That is not true. You claimed something that simply would not happen with moving water.

Floods that were infinitely smaller, that had much slower rate of inundation and recession have left evidence. Your massive flood would have left massive evidence. That is a fact that you can't handwave away.

Any such evidence would have been degraded over the past 4000 or so years. Lots of things have happened to change earth's surface since.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Yes, you appear to have misunderstood the whole article since you cannot find any part of it that supports your claim. And actually I linked the article.

You linked the Wiki article, not this one. But I'll highlight the phrases that support my claim. I will concede that DK can affect smart people as well, as the article point out (toward the end).

Dunning-Kruger Effect: Why Incompetent People Think They Are Superior

The Dunning-Kruger effect is a type of cognitive bias in which people believe that they are smarter and more capable than they really are. Essentially, low ability people do not possess the skills needed to recognize their own incompetence. The combination of poor self-awareness and low cognitive ability leads them to overestimate their own capabilities.

The term lends a scientific name and explanation to a problem that many people immediately recognize—that fools are blind to their own foolishness. As Charles Darwin wrote in his book The Descent of Man, "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge."

original study on this psychological phenomenon, they performed a series of four investigations and found that people who scored in the lowest percentiles on tests of grammar, humor, and logic also tended to dramatically overestimate how well they had performed. Their actual test scores placed them in the 12th percentile, yet they estimated that their performance placed them in the 62nd percentile.
The Research
In one experiment, for example, Dunning and Kruger asked their 65 participants to rate how funny different jokes were. Some of the participants were exceptionally poor at determining what other people would find funny—yet these same subjects described themselves as excellent judges of humor.

Incompetent people, the researchers found, are not only poor performers, they are also unable to accurately assess and recognize the quality of their own work. These low performers were also unable to recognize the skill and competence levels of other people, which is part of the reason why they consistently view themselves as better, more capable, and more knowledgeable than others.

This is the reason why students who earn failing scores on exams sometimes feel that they deserved a much higher score. They overestimate their own knowledge and ability and are incapable of seeing the poorness of their performance.

"In many cases, incompetence does not leave people disoriented, perplexed, or cautious," wrote David Dunning in an article for Pacific Standard. "Instead, the incompetent are often blessed with an inappropriate confidence, buoyed by something that feels to them like knowledge."

This effect can have a profound impact on what people believe, the decisions they make, and the actions they take. In one study, Dunning and Ehrlinger found that women performed equally to men on a science quiz, and yet women underestimated their performance because they believed they had less scientific reasoning ability than men. The researchers also found that as a result of this belief, these women were more likely to refuse to enter a science competition.

Dunning and his colleagues have also performed experiments in which they ask respondents if they are familiar with a variety of terms related to subjects including politics, biology, physics, and geography. Along with genuine subject-relevant concepts, they interjected completely made up terms.

In one such study, approximately 90 percent of respondents claimed that they had at least some knowledge of the made up terms. Consistent with other findings related to the Dunning-Kruger effect, the more familiar participants claimed that they were with a topic, the more likely they were to also claim they were familiar with the meaningless terms. As Dunning has suggested, the very trouble with ignorance is that it can feel just like expertise.

Dunning suggests that deficits in skill and expertise create a two-pronged problem. First, these deficits cause people to perform poorly in the domain in which they are incompetent. Secondly, their erroneous and deficient knowledge makes them unable to recognize their mistakes.

A Lack of Metacognition

The Dunning-Kruger effect is also related to difficulties with metacognition, or the ability to step back and look at one's own behavior and abilities from outside of oneself. People are often only able to evaluate themselves from their own limited and highly subjective point of view. From this limited perspective they seem highly skilled, knowledgeable, and superior to others. Because of this, people sometimes struggle to have a more realistic view of their own abilities.

A Little Knowledge Can Lead to Overconfidence

Another contributing factor is that sometimes a tiny bit of knowledge on a subject can lead people to mistakenly believe that they know all there is to know about it. As the old saying goes, a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing. A person might have the slimmest bit of awareness about a subject, yet thanks to the Dunning-Kruger effect, believe that he or she is an expert.

Other factors that can contribute to the effect include our use of heuristics, or mental shortcuts that allow us to make decisions quickly, and our tendency to seek out patterns even where none exist. Our minds are primed to try to make sense of the disparate array of information we deal with on a daily basis. As we try to cut through the confusion and interpret our own abilities and performance within our individual worlds, it is perhaps not surprising that we sometimes fail so completely to accurately judge how well we do.

low IQ. As awareness of the term has increased over the past few years, misapplication of the term as a synonym for stupid has also grown. It is, after all, easy to judge others and believe that such things simply do not apply to you.

The reality is that everyone is susceptible to this phenomenon, and in fact, most of us probably experience it with surprising regularity. People who are genuine experts in one area may mistakenly believe that their intelligence and knowledge carry over into other areas in which they are less familiar. A brilliant scientist, for example, might be a very poor writer. In order for the scientist to recognize their own lack of skill, they needs to possess a good working knowledge of things such as grammar and composition. Because those are lacking, the scientist in this example also lacks the ability to recognize their own poor performance.

So if the incompetent tend to think they are experts, what to genuine experts think of their own abilities? Dunning and Kruger found that those at the high end of the competence spectrum did hold more realistic views of their own knowledge and capabilities. However, these experts actually tended to underestimate their own abilities relative to how others did.

Essentially, these top scoring individuals know that they are better than the average, but they are not convinced of just how superior their performance is compared to others. The problem in this case is not that experts don't know how well-informed they are; it's that they tend to believe that everyone else is knowledgeable as well.

confirmation bias. In order to minimize this tendency, keep challenging your beliefs and expectations. Seek out information that challenges your ideas.

A Word From Verywell

The Dunning-Kruger effect is one of many cognitive biases that can affect your behaviors and decisions, from the mundane to the life-changing. While it may be easier to recognize the phenomenon in others, it is important to remember that it is something that impacts everyone. By understanding the underlying causes that contribute to this psychological bias, you might be better able to spot these tendencies in yourself and find ways to overcome them.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Any such evidence would have been degraded over the past 4000 or so years. Lots of things have happened to change earth's surface since.

That is shown to be false by the older weaker flood that I linked earlier that likely inspired the myth. That evidence is still apparent, so would the evidence for your infinitely more intense flood. This claim, like your magic Ark, does not float.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You linked the Wiki article, not this one. But I'll highlight the phrases that support my claim. I will concede that DK can affect smart people as well, as the article point out (toward the end).

Dunning-Kruger Effect: Why Incompetent People Think They Are Superior

The Dunning-Kruger effect is a type of cognitive bias in which people believe that they are smarter and more capable than they really are. Essentially, low ability people do not possess the skills needed to recognize their own incompetence. The combination of poor self-awareness and low cognitive ability leads them to overestimate their own capabilities.

The term lends a scientific name and explanation to a problem that many people immediately recognize—that fools are blind to their own foolishness. As Charles Darwin wrote in his book The Descent of Man, "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge."

original study on this psychological phenomenon, they performed a series of four investigations and found that people who scored in the lowest percentiles on tests of grammar, humor, and logic also tended to dramatically overestimate how well they had performed. Their actual test scores placed them in the 12th percentile, yet they estimated that their performance placed them in the 62nd percentile.
The Research
In one experiment, for example, Dunning and Kruger asked their 65 participants to rate how funny different jokes were. Some of the participants were exceptionally poor at determining what other people would find funny—yet these same subjects described themselves as excellent judges of humor.

Incompetent people, the researchers found, are not only poor performers, they are also unable to accurately assess and recognize the quality of their own work. These low performers were also unable to recognize the skill and competence levels of other people, which is part of the reason why they consistently view themselves as better, more capable, and more knowledgeable than others.

This is the reason why students who earn failing scores on exams sometimes feel that they deserved a much higher score. They overestimate their own knowledge and ability and are incapable of seeing the poorness of their performance.

"In many cases, incompetence does not leave people disoriented, perplexed, or cautious," wrote David Dunning in an article for Pacific Standard. "Instead, the incompetent are often blessed with an inappropriate confidence, buoyed by something that feels to them like knowledge."

This effect can have a profound impact on what people believe, the decisions they make, and the actions they take. In one study, Dunning and Ehrlinger found that women performed equally to men on a science quiz, and yet women underestimated their performance because they believed they had less scientific reasoning ability than men. The researchers also found that as a result of this belief, these women were more likely to refuse to enter a science competition.

Dunning and his colleagues have also performed experiments in which they ask respondents if they are familiar with a variety of terms related to subjects including politics, biology, physics, and geography. Along with genuine subject-relevant concepts, they interjected completely made up terms.

In one such study, approximately 90 percent of respondents claimed that they had at least some knowledge of the made up terms. Consistent with other findings related to the Dunning-Kruger effect, the more familiar participants claimed that they were with a topic, the more likely they were to also claim they were familiar with the meaningless terms. As Dunning has suggested, the very trouble with ignorance is that it can feel just like expertise.

Dunning suggests that deficits in skill and expertise create a two-pronged problem. First, these deficits cause people to perform poorly in the domain in which they are incompetent. Secondly, their erroneous and deficient knowledge makes them unable to recognize their mistakes.

A Lack of Metacognition

The Dunning-Kruger effect is also related to difficulties with metacognition, or the ability to step back and look at one's own behavior and abilities from outside of oneself. People are often only able to evaluate themselves from their own limited and highly subjective point of view. From this limited perspective they seem highly skilled, knowledgeable, and superior to others. Because of this, people sometimes struggle to have a more realistic view of their own abilities.

A Little Knowledge Can Lead to Overconfidence

Another contributing factor is that sometimes a tiny bit of knowledge on a subject can lead people to mistakenly believe that they know all there is to know about it. As the old saying goes, a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing. A person might have the slimmest bit of awareness about a subject, yet thanks to the Dunning-Kruger effect, believe that he or she is an expert.

Other factors that can contribute to the effect include our use of heuristics, or mental shortcuts that allow us to make decisions quickly, and our tendency to seek out patterns even where none exist. Our minds are primed to try to make sense of the disparate array of information we deal with on a daily basis. As we try to cut through the confusion and interpret our own abilities and performance within our individual worlds, it is perhaps not surprising that we sometimes fail so completely to accurately judge how well we do.

low IQ. As awareness of the term has increased over the past few years, misapplication of the term as a synonym for stupid has also grown. It is, after all, easy to judge others and believe that such things simply do not apply to you.

The reality is that everyone is susceptible to this phenomenon, and in fact, most of us probably experience it with surprising regularity. People who are genuine experts in one area may mistakenly believe that their intelligence and knowledge carry over into other areas in which they are less familiar. A brilliant scientist, for example, might be a very poor writer. In order for the scientist to recognize their own lack of skill, they needs to possess a good working knowledge of things such as grammar and composition. Because those are lacking, the scientist in this example also lacks the ability to recognize their own poor performance.

So if the incompetent tend to think they are experts, what to genuine experts think of their own abilities? Dunning and Kruger found that those at the high end of the competence spectrum did hold more realistic views of their own knowledge and capabilities. However, these experts actually tended to underestimate their own abilities relative to how others did.

Essentially, these top scoring individuals know that they are better than the average, but they are not convinced of just how superior their performance is compared to others. The problem in this case is not that experts don't know how well-informed they are; it's that they tend to believe that everyone else is knowledgeable as well.

confirmation bias. In order to minimize this tendency, keep challenging your beliefs and expectations. Seek out information that challenges your ideas.

A Word From Verywell

The Dunning-Kruger effect is one of many cognitive biases that can affect your behaviors and decisions, from the mundane to the life-changing. While it may be easier to recognize the phenomenon in others, it is important to remember that it is something that impacts everyone. By understanding the underlying causes that contribute to this psychological bias, you might be better able to spot these tendencies in yourself and find ways to overcome them.

Then you either did not read or understand that article. It tells you specific tests that they did on people and found that those that did poorly in those specific tests also over estimated their ability. And your claim is specifically refuted by this paragraph from the article:

"The reality is that everyone is susceptible to this phenomenon, and in fact, most of us probably experience it with surprising regularity. People who are genuine experts in one area may mistakenly believe that their intelligence and knowledge carry over into other areas in which they are less familiar. A brilliant scientist, for example, might be a very poor writer. In order for the scientist to recognize their own lack of skill, they needs to possess a good working knowledge of things such as grammar and composition. Because those are lacking, the scientist in this example also lacks the ability to recognize their own poor performance."

Do you see how it is not limited to people of low ability. Everyone is susceptible to it when dealing with areas outside of their expertise. Your claim that is was an insult is refuted by the very article that you linked.

EDIT: That is also why I asked you what you did. I was pretty sure that I could come up with an example of someone that did not have your expertise that gave you bad advice on how to do your job.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Then you either did not read or understand that article. It tells you specific tests that they did on people and found that those that did poorly in those specific tests also over estimated their ability. And your claim is specifically refuted by this paragraph from the article:

"The reality is that everyone is susceptible to this phenomenon, and in fact, most of us probably experience it with surprising regularity. People who are genuine experts in one area may mistakenly believe that their intelligence and knowledge carry over into other areas in which they are less familiar. A brilliant scientist, for example, might be a very poor writer. In order for the scientist to recognize their own lack of skill, they needs to possess a good working knowledge of things such as grammar and composition. Because those are lacking, the scientist in this example also lacks the ability to recognize their own poor performance."

Do you see how it is not limited to people of low ability. Everyone is susceptible to it when dealing with areas outside of their expertise. Your claim that is was an insult is refuted by the very article that you linked.

EDIT: That is also why I asked you what you did. I was pretty sure that I could come up with an example of someone that did not have your expertise that gave you bad advice on how to do your job.

The preponderant weight of these articles points to people of low ability. Note that I did concede your point. Also, Tas expanded the term to include everything that I do as DK, so I expect that others believe this as well.

Regarding your last point, co-workers look to me for advice, not the other way around. In fact I'm so good at my job that it embarrasses my bosses.

 

[bhsmte]

That's because the flood didn't leave the evidence they believed it would leave. They assumed the wrong flood model.

What flood?

 

[Subduction Zone]

The preponderant weight of these articles points to people of low ability. Note that I did concede your point. Also, Tas expanded the term to include everything that I do as DK, so I expect that others believe this as well.

Regarding your last point, co-workers look to me for advice, not the other way around. In fact I'm so good at my job that it embarrasses my bosses.

No, that was a very biased reading of yours. It shows that you could not approach that article with an open mind. They used obvious examples to make their point but then went out of their way to say that it applies to everyone at times.

And I did not ask about co-workers, but it appears that you may not deal with the public at all in your job so perhaps you will not be able to relate.