Is salvation conditional?

Just_a_Joe said:

There is no will in the gospel. Bogus. Because the premise is, all have sinned and fell short of the glory of God. There is no righteous, no, not one. Adam sinned and this sin was transferred to all humans, in Adam all have sinned. Your nature. Born that way.

Everybody is destined to hell by default (Adam and Eve not included). Nice choice! Free indeed.

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Then if there is no free will in the gospel, how come not everyone is saved?

God has His standards, you just don't seem to like them. God says sin must be accounted for, our sin is by our Advocate, Jesus Christ.

Verward said:

How faithful do you have to be? How much "cooperation" is required? Is anyone perfect in that regard? How imperfect can you be?

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"No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.(Matt 6:24, NIV)." That applies to other sins as well.

believeume said:

After accepting God's sacrifice, his son Jesus the Christ. And from there acquiring salvation from sin and destruction/hell, is it on the condition that you remain faithful to Jesus?

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Yes, and God is the One who keeps us. If it depended on us, how could we be superior to others?

Albion said:

As we've seen dozens of times here on CF, the folks who most earnestly insist that we must keep the Law all our lives, never commit a sin after conversion, or earn our salvation by performing good works...

...are unable to explain how or how much of any of that can be done.

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This has been explained multiple times in multiple threads by multiple posters and is also clear from scripture. It's no one's fault but your own if you choose to close your eyes and cover your ears.

This in itself would probably be sufficient to prove to me that 'Works Righteousness' is a mistaken idea if I had not already come to that conclusion because of the Bible's testimony.

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Yeah, it was such a mistaken idea that it was taught in every Christian church and believed by every church father and all Christians for over 1,500 years before King Henry VIII created your religion so he could divorce his wife.

Two scriptures come to mind..one used by those who teach you can have salvation and lose it:

Hebrews 6:4 - 6
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame"

And those who teach that if you are saved you are saved and will know truly that you are if god disciplines you when you do fall.
Hebrews 12:5 - 8
"And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons."

I know there are numerous verses that support both teachings and also refute them.
We deal with people who say a "sinners prayer" and then go on to live the rest of their life in sin, are never chastened by the Lord and die in sin..were they ever saved in the first place?

But the person who truly believed and received the LORD and follows him, if they fall will be permitted to sin for awhile but then God intervenes. It can be as simple as someone giving you a message and you hear it and realize your sin and repent. Or, it can be as serious as getting everything you have taken from you, being driven from your community, sent on a long faith journey with almost nothing and forced to rely on the LORD.
Being a Christian for almost 32 years now I have experienced both.
So I think it is only conditional based on how you received the LORD when you met him in the first place, because if God gave you the gift and you fully received it, you may falter later but if truly saved God isn't going to let you get very far. I can also tell you that in a prodigal son scenario, sometimes God will let you find out for yourself and live among the pigs for awhile, then wake up and return to Him.
But other times Father is going to go out hunting, completely destroy the pig farm (symbolically or literally) and bring you home...

believeume said:

After accepting God's sacrifice, his son Jesus the Christ. And from there acquiring salvation from sin and destruction/hell, is it on the condition that you remain faithful to Jesus?

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It is on the condition that it is a true confession and profession upon the heart. Which isn't hidden from HIM.

believeume said:

humans have a tendency to be crappy in any clothing they may adorn themselves with.

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I myself need to watch out for hypocrisy and how I still can look down on others. God is able to correct us > Hebrews 12:4-11.

Uber Genius said:

Jesus and the disciple didn't berate knowledge. Jesus was masterful at taking apart the various religious groups heresies using deep philosophical knowledge of the roots of the errors. Paul, John, and the author of Hebrews make appeals to study and identification of error.

Shema also calls us to love God with all our minds.

Your point about change is fair. We are to be changed by the renewing of our minds.

If there is no renewal then we are not being conformed to Jesus' likeness.

But knowledge is extremely important here. And working hard to understand what the original audience would have understood is hardly something to be mocked!

In fact many Christians are ignorant of how much effort, and how many lives have been given up in obedience to Christ, sacrificed so that we could have a testimony. To mock knowledge is to make their martyrdom for the sake of the scriptural transmission a mockery.

The scriptures are of immense value, exegesis is of immense value, hermeneutics is of immense value, post-modern reads of the scriptures (this is what it means to me given that I refuse to study deeply) is a travesty.

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I sure hope you are not calling Paul a mocker....
"
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Point being the outcome of knowledge should be love...

One can call out every mistake they think another has made in their doctrines...but its the one that trust Jesus who is truly justified...and they can have lots of faulty thinking...and enter the kingdom faster than one who doesn't and believes all the right things....

Just_a_Joe said:

Nice theology. In real life, very few if anybody truly practices Jesus's teachings as you described. Nobody. Common is conformity with the world to a more or less degree. In the West, in the greater conformity side of the spectrum.

Lack of faith?

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One reason I believe....after reading from Willard...is because we are taught that justification is all there is to salvation...rather than...the initial concept...that Jesus preached which the kingdom of God was at hand...meaning we can enjoy life now..not just when we die....so we heard that Jesus came preaching the gospel of the kingdom...and we know of the gospel preached obviously part of progressive revelation, as atone ment.....It seems when we teach one before the other...we don't find to many deciples..meaning those that truly take up their cross...However, If ministers taught folks to put their trust in Jesus and then if they stumble they will find forgiveness of sins...truly more disciples would be made. Point being....teaching that once you believe you will alway be saved..leaves no room for many to start transforming their hearts to the image of Christ...why because part of our change...is when we practice righteousness the place as DW says where Jesus meets us at...We love him by obeying him....and this makes a relationship...when in the right heart.....and eternal life is said...to be knowing God and Jesus Christ....but it is written how do you say you love me and hate your brother......if we love one another we are in him and he in us....

ToBeLoved said:

Then if there is no free will in the gospel, how come not everyone is saved?

God has His standards, you just don't seem to like them. God says sin must be accounted for, our sin is by our Advocate, Jesus Christ.

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No free will in being born with innate sinfulness. No free will in choosing salvation because of fear of hell.

If you're forced to choose something because you believe otherwuse you will be punished - it's not a choice, it's a gun to your head pushing you to do it.

But billions and billions people haven't even heard the gospel. That's why there is no way they can accept it and get saved.

Just_a_Joe said:

No free will in being born with innate sinfulness. No free will in choosing salvation because of fear of hell.

If you're forced to choose something because you believe otherwuse you will be punished - it's not a choice, it's a gun to your head pushing you to do it.

But billions and billions people haven't even heard the gospel. That's why there is no way they can accept it and get saved.

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..mmmmm..why do you say its not freewill.....Adam had a choice...he chose for all of us. You do have free will with fear....Free will to choose hell, or heaven. One may choose punishment..my brother did it all the time...he preferred to suffer the consequence

corinth77777 said:

One reason I believe....after reading from Willard...is because we are taught that justification is all there is to salvation...rather than...the initial concept...that Jesus preached which the kingdom of God was at hand...meaning we can enjoy life now..not just when we die....so we heard that Jesus came preaching the gospel of the kingdom...and we know of the gospel preached obviously part of progressive revelation, as atone ment.....It seems when we teach one before the other...we don't find to many deciples..meaning those that truly take up their cross...However, If ministers taught folks to put their trust in Jesus and then if they stumble they will find forgiveness of sins...truly more disciples would be made. Point being....teaching that once you believe you will alway be saved..leaves no room for many to start transforming their hearts to the image of Christ...why because part of our change...is when we practice righteousness the place as DW says where Jesus meets us at...We love him by obeying him....and this makes a relationship...when in the right heart.....and eternal life is said...to be knowing God and Jesus Christ....but it is written how do you say you love me and hate your brother......if we love one another we are in him and he in us....

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I absolutely agree. Unless you have a constant motivation like a carrot in front of a horse, nobody's going to do anything.

I also think that motivation must be out of love and not fear. Because fear is primitive and short-lived. But love is so much more powerful and long-lasting.

The denomination that teach salvation in progress, lifetime work, salvation by deeds - always be ready any second like the wise virgins with burning candles. Those I think show much better outcome.

But even those motivate out of fear and I think it's a big shortcoming.

corinth77777 said:

..mmmmm..why do you say its not freewill.....Adam had a choice...he chose for all of us. You do have free will with fear....Free will to choose hell, or heaven. One may choose punishment..my brother did it all the time...he preferred to suffer the consequence

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Well. I don't agree. Adam doesn't matter to me. The Bible says children do not bare responsibility for the sins of their parents (anscestors). And being born sinful and destined to hell because of it is not a choice. It's a default state.

Just_a_Joe said:

I absolutely agree. Unless you have a constant motivation like a carrot in front of a horse, nobody's going to do anything.

I also think that motivation must be out of love and not fear. Because fear is primitive and short-lived. But love is so much more powerful and long-lasting.

The denomination that teach salvation in progress, lifetime work, salvation by deeds - always be ready any second like the wise virgins with burning candles. Those I think show much better outcome.

But even those motivate out of fear and I think it's a big shortcoming.

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There is no fear in Christ...perfect love cast out all fear....for fear has to do with punishment...that is why we put our trust in him...

what about the denominations..that teach salvation as progressive?

corinth77777 said:

There is no fear in Christ...perfect love cast out all fear....for fear has to do with punishment...that is why we put our trust in him...

what about the denominations..that teach salvation as progressive?

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Well what is the gospel? Saving from hell, isn't it? It's a scary place that people fear to go to. When one of the great revival preachers was preaching (I forgot his name), people were so scared they thought they were burning already and rushed to get saved immediately.

Denominations like Orthodoxy or Catholicism teach salvation by works. I think it makes more sense. Still not good to scare people into believing God.

Just_a_Joe said:

Well. I don't agree. Adam doesn't matter to me. The Bible says children do not bare responsibility for the sins of their parents (anscestors). And being born sinful and destined to hell because of it is not a choice. It's a default state.

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The other option isn't right or righteous either

Just_a_Joe said:

Well. I don't agree. Adam doesn't matter to me. The Bible says children do not bare responsibility for the sins of their parents (anscestors). And being born sinful and destined to hell because of it is not a choice. It's a default state.

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The person that sinneth shall die...

"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"

Just_a_Joe said:

Well what is the gospel? Saving from hell, isn't it? It's a scary place that people fear to go to. When one of the great revival preachers was preaching (I forgot his name), people were so scared they thought they were burning already and rushing to get saved immediately.

Denominations like Orthodoxy or Catholicism teach salvation by works. I think it makes more sense. Still not good to scare people into believing God.

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Mmmm...interesting point...yet, we are made for God's pleasure.....not our own.....

Just_a_Joe said:

Nice theology. In real life, very few if anybody truly practices Jesus's teachings as you described. Nobody. Common is conformity with the world to a more or less degree. In the West, in the greater conformity side of the spectrum.

Lack of faith?

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I think maybe its because the truth of the Lords' word that helps us die to ourselves and shed the things that cause us to stumble has been suppressed and obscured by the organizations because of their many centuries of worldly conformity, what is happening now is not new, it has been happening all along, its just that now we have so many resources like the internet and sites like this that people are starting to come together and understand the truth in spite of the orgs and their agendas. most people like myself have been fooled for many years by the milk peddlers, but my wife and I left the orgs 3 years ago, and we have learned so much, my prayer is that all of us will realize that our homes are our ministries and we don't have to GO anywhere to experience Jesus, because we all have fellowship in Christ all around the world because we ARE His Temple, and we fellowship and worship in the Spirit. Like we are right now.