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Is REPENTANCE FOR GENTILES ?

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dan p

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Hi to all and I have many OP , on repentance and that the Body of Christ is not involved in Repentance !!

In Heb 6:6 , Israel has no Repentance as they Rejected their MESSIAH !!

All will usually point to Acts 26:20 and say that Gentiles of today HAVE TO be Repentent TO BE SAVED !!

How do all you see this ??

dan p
 
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bibledoctrine

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Hi to all and I have many OP , on repentance and that the Body of Christ is not involved in Repentance !!

In Heb 6:6 , Israel has no Repentance as the Rejected their MESSIAH !!

All will usually point to Acts 26:20 and say that Gentiles of today HAVE TO be Repentent TO BE SAVED !!

How do all you see this ??

dan p

That is both Biblical and doctrinally correct. Repentance is often seen in Israel's program, which Christ spoke to regarding the Kingdom of heaven (to be installed on the earth) and commented to the disciples that they sound repent and be water baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and Spirit.

We, today, contrary to that, are saved by grace, and that by faith. Repentance is not a formula pattern by which we are saved today; like it was for Israel in the Gospel accounts (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John). When in Acts 26:20, where it mentions that the Gentiles, that whey should repent and turn to God, this account, although in Acts 26, stems from the time period of Acts 9, in which Paul is here giving another account of the voice and vision and appointment by Christ regarding his ministry for today to the Gentiles. Acts 26 is a further revelation by Paul to the reader - to King Agrippa - on the details of his ministry appointment to the Gentiles, etc. When we study the accounts of Paul in his early ministry, he first preaches the gospel of grace to the Jews, and then Gentiles, and at that early time, if a Gentile wished to believer, they would still be inclined to join the Jewish church of Messiah believers. That is what the repentance is attributed to for those early ministry years of Paul. But that was not the final pattern which later materialized, which we find in the later ministry journey of Paul, especially when the Jews stopped entertaining Paul's message of grace, then Paul began going directly to the Gentiles first, and making no difference between Jew and Gentile. By the time that occurred, then the pattern for salvation had been revealed to Paul by the Lord Christ Jesus (II Corinthians 12:1: It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.)

It was those "visions and revelations of the Lord", in II Corinthians 12:1, which were further revelations to Paul for the pattern for grace salvation today which did not include repentance, per say, as an ingredient for salvation.
 
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dan p

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That is both Biblical and doctrinally correct. Repentance is often seen in Israel's program, which Christ spoke to regarding the Kingdom of heaven (to be installed on the earth) and commented to the disciples that they sound repent and be water baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and Spirit.

We, today, contrary to that, are saved by grace, and that by faith. Repentance is not a formula pattern by which we are saved today; like it was for Israel in the Gospel accounts (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John). When in Acts 26:20, where it mentions that the Gentiles, that whey should repent and turn to God, this account, although in Acts 26, stems from the time period of Acts 9, in which Paul is here giving another account of the voice and vision and appointment by Christ regarding his ministry for today to the Gentiles. Acts 26 is a further revelation by Paul to the reader - to King Agrippa - on the details of his ministry appointment to the Gentiles, etc. When we study the accounts of Paul in his early ministry, he first preaches the gospel of grace to the Jews, and then Gentiles, and at that early time, if a Gentile wished to believer, they would still be inclined to join the Jewish church of Messiah believers. That is what the repentance is attributed to for those early ministry years of Paul. But that was not the final pattern which later materialized, which we find in the later ministry journey of Paul, especially when the Jews stopped entertaining Paul's message of grace, then Paul began going directly to the Gentiles first, and making no difference between Jew and Gentile. By the time that occurred, then the pattern for salvation had been revealed to Paul by the Lord Christ Jesus (II Corinthians 12:1: It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.)

It was those "visions and revelations of the Lord", in II Corinthians 12:1, which were further revelations to Paul for the pattern for grace salvation today which did not include repentance, per say, as an ingredient for salvation.


Hi , and you are one of the first one to see what I see in Acts 26:20 .

Even Pauline dispensationalist do not see what we see in Acts 26:20 .

Acts 2 and Covenant people focus on is Repentance BUT what they all miss is " and " DOING WORKS " , and you rightly quoted Eph 2:8 ,

Only the Pharisees and Saducees had to produce FRUIT , or John would not Baptize them , dan p
 
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Biblewriter

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That is both Biblical and doctrinally correct. Repentance is often seen in Israel's program, which Christ spoke to regarding the Kingdom of heaven (to be installed on the earth) and commented to the disciples that they sound repent and be water baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and Spirit.

We, today, contrary to that, are saved by grace, and that by faith. Repentance is not a formula pattern by which we are saved today; like it was for Israel in the Gospel accounts (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John). When in Acts 26:20, where it mentions that the Gentiles, that whey should repent and turn to God, this account, although in Acts 26, stems from the time period of Acts 9, in which Paul is here giving another account of the voice and vision and appointment by Christ regarding his ministry for today to the Gentiles. Acts 26 is a further revelation by Paul to the reader - to King Agrippa - on the details of his ministry appointment to the Gentiles, etc. When we study the accounts of Paul in his early ministry, he first preaches the gospel of grace to the Jews, and then Gentiles, and at that early time, if a Gentile wished to believer, they would still be inclined to join the Jewish church of Messiah believers. That is what the repentance is attributed to for those early ministry years of Paul. But that was not the final pattern which later materialized, which we find in the later ministry journey of Paul, especially when the Jews stopped entertaining Paul's message of grace, then Paul began going directly to the Gentiles first, and making no difference between Jew and Gentile. By the time that occurred, then the pattern for salvation had been revealed to Paul by the Lord Christ Jesus (II Corinthians 12:1: It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.)

It was those "visions and revelations of the Lord", in II Corinthians 12:1, which were further revelations to Paul for the pattern for grace salvation today which did not include repentance, per say, as an ingredient for salvation.

We first see repentance specially commanded to the gentiles in Acts 17, where Paul told the Athenians that God formerly "winked at" their ignorance, "but now commandeth all men to repent."

"Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:" (Acts 17:22-30)
Again, you wholly misrepresent Acts 26. Paul was indeed speaking of the time the Lord originally sent him to the gentiles. But what the Lord told him at that time was to tell them to "repent, and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance."


This is not a statement that salvation has any bearing on salvation, but that works are necessary in one who is saved.




"At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance." (Acts 26:13-20)
 
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bibledoctrine

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And the works we have in this sanctification walk is thus:

Ephesians 2:10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

God in all His glorious plan has already before ordained that we should walk in His workmanship of good works. These good works are not of us nor of our initiative, for "God hath before ordained that we should walk in them".

And just in case someone should come to this post and determine that we need to perform works for salvation, then heed this Scripture - no more of works:

Romans 11:6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
 
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dan p

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And the works we have in this sanctification walk is thus:



God in all His glorious plan has already before ordained that we should walk in His workmanship of good works. These good works are not of us nor of our initiative, for "God hath before ordained that we should walk in them".

And just in case someone should come to this post and determine that we need to perform works for salvation, then heed this Scripture - no more of works:


Hi , and good post as , even many dispensationalist do not see that works are not invloved in our salvation , but after salvation , Eph 2:9 , dan p
 
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mark273

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I am joining this discussion a little late, but I don't see how repentance in Acts 17 does not refer to a condition for salvation. But even if that is set aside (although I don't see how it could be), Luke 24:47 makes clear that repentance is part of the message that should be proclaimed to all nations. It is closely linked in that passage with forgiveness of sins in a context of proclaiming the message of the gospel. Jesus also clearly implies that the message that is to go the nations is the one that will begin to be proclaimed in Jerusalem, thus undercutting any idea that gospel given in Acts 2 is different from the one in Acts 17 or later.
 
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dan p

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Acts 18:6
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
6 But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”

Repenting is for all nations. There are no freebies or passes to speak of.


Hi , and in Acts 26:20 , and Gentiles were to do WORKS TO PROVE THEIR REPENTANCE ??

Is that what is done today , DO WORKS TO PROVE OUR REPENTANCE ??


This is how I see it , Acts 26:20 is the Near View as Far as the NATIONS / GENTILES / NATION OF JEWS / HEATHEN , AND PAGAN is what ETHNOS in the Original means !!

The FAR VIEW is how Gentiles will be saved in the Mellinnium ??

Today we are saved by Grace , Eph 2:8 . as DEAD MEN can not Repent , as 1 Cor 2:14 , REVEALS !!

dan p
 
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mark273

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@ dan p - to say that DEAD MEN can not repent is not saying anything that is also not true of faith. DEAD MEN cannot believe without grace and the work of the Holy Spirit. So it seems to me that in terms of human inability, faith and repentance are on an equal level. Acts 26:20 is very clear that the same gospel that Paul preached to the Jews is the one he preached to gentiles. Repentance is a requirement for salvation. Interact with Luke 24:47 that I referred to above.

People have always and only been saved by grace. There is no other way to be saved. So to say that today we are saved by grace is to say what has always been true. But you say it in such a way that it makes me think that you believe that at other times people are not saved by grace. Well, how would that ever be possible? At all times, past, present, and future, we are saved by grace through faith. And repentance is a necessary part of that conversion process.
 
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mark273

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@ several of you - you seem to be concerned that if repentance is required for salvation, then works are required for salvation. However, something can be necessary without being meritorious. Faith is something that the sinner does. God does not believe. He gives grace, but He does not believe. The sinner does that, and it is required for salvation. But that does not make it meritorious. Repentance is an expression of faith and the life of God that grace puts there. It is required, but it is not meritorious.
 
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dan p

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Adam and Eve did not have need for repentance until "the serpent" introduced lie's.
The devil is the problem, every problem. Lucifer's lust against God is the sin. :)


Hi , and I believe the problem is , FREE WILL , that Adam and Eve had !!

They exercised there Free Will and we have been in trouble since then !!

The first persons to exercised Free will were angels , like Lucifer !!

dan p
 
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BillyShope

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People have always and only been saved by grace. There is no other way to be saved. So to say that today we are saved by grace is to say what has always been true. But you say it in such a way that it makes me think that you believe that at other times people are not saved by grace. Well, how would that ever be possible? At all times, past, present, and future, we are saved by grace through faith. And repentance is a necessary part of that conversion process.


Good paragraph...until that last sentence. How can I...who am alive in the new man...repent for that which was accomplished by the old man...who is now dead? That's totally illogical. Israel, in the Dispensation of Law, was commanded to repent of their sin of rejecting their Messiah, but, for those of this Dispensation of Grace, to repent of the sins committed by the old man makes as much sense as to be water baptized to identify with our Lord in His burial or to be crucified (as in The Philippines) to be identified with our Lord in His death. I discuss this more in "Identification with Christ" and "Should we confess our sins?" under "Christianity" in shopeshop.org
 
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mark273

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Good paragraph...until that last sentence. How can I...who am alive in the new man...repent for that which was accomplished by the old man...who is now dead? That's totally illogical. Israel, in the Dispensation of Law, was commanded to repent of their sin of rejecting their Messiah, but, for those of this Dispensation of Grace, to repent of the sins committed by the old man makes as much sense as to be water baptized to identify with our Lord in His burial or to be crucified (as in The Philippines) to be identified with our Lord in His death. I discuss this more in "Identification with Christ" and "Should we confess our sins?" under "Christianity" in shopeshop.org

Hello, Mr.Shopes. I would like to respond to your post, but you will have to excuse me, I am not going to go and read your books. I have some time to interact on this forum, but reading a whole other book is beyond a conversation.

Now as to your comment, I do not see what is "illogical." Correct me if I am wrong, but in using the terms "old man" and "new man" the way you are, it seems like you are saying that who a person is before they are converted is one person, and who they are after conversion is a completely different person. This difference, it seems to me you are saying, is not the same as saying that they have changed a great deal, but that they are actually two different people.

If that is the case, then it is illogical to me to see how you can speak of salvation at all. If the old man is "dead" and is replaced by the "new man", then the old person was not saved, he was replaced. Replacement is not salvation, it is obliteration and replacement.

My understanding is that the phrases "old man" and "new man" are metaphors that Paul uses to describe two phases in the same person's life. The unregenerate sinner is not replaced, but rather saved by grace through faith. Thus the "new man," that is, the person that is now a believer is the same person as the unsaved person. There is continuity. That is why in our experience, the body of the saved person is the same, the same scars, the same memories, etc. But God has regenerated that person so that they are not the same as they were before. They are changed, they are different. But they have not been replaced. They don't need a new driver's license or new birth certificate. The new believer can talk about their life before conversion, not someone else's. But it seems like in your view, the new believer has no former life, no testimony, because that other person is not them. There is no continuity of identity.

I think part of the problem here is that use of the terms same and different in both a literal and a figurative sense.
 
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BillyShope

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Hello, Mr.Shopes. I would like to respond to your post, but you will have to excuse me, I am not going to go and read your books. I have some time to interact on this forum, but reading a whole other book is beyond a conversation.

Now as to your comment, I do not see what is "illogical." Correct me if I am wrong, but in using the terms "old man" and "new man" the way you are, it seems like you are saying that who a person is before they are converted is one person, and who they are after conversion is a completely different person. This difference, it seems to me you are saying, is not the same as saying that they have changed a great deal, but that they are actually two different people.

If that is the case, then it is illogical to me to see how you can speak of salvation at all. If the old man is "dead" and is replaced by the "new man", then the old person was not saved, he was replaced. Replacement is not salvation, it is obliteration and replacement.

My understanding is that the phrases "old man" and "new man" are metaphors that Paul uses to describe two phases in the same person's life. The unregenerate sinner is not replaced, but rather saved by grace through faith. Thus the "new man," that is, the person that is now a believer is the same person as the unsaved person. There is continuity. That is why in our experience, the body of the saved person is the same, the same scars, the same memories, etc. But God has regenerated that person so that they are not the same as they were before. They are changed, they are different. But they have not been replaced. They don't need a new driver's license or new birth certificate. The new believer can talk about their life before conversion, not someone else's. But it seems like in your view, the new believer has no former life, no testimony, because that other person is not them. There is no continuity of identity.

I think part of the problem here is that use of the terms same and different in both a literal and a figurative sense.

I can't make it any clearer than Paul did in Colossians 3:9&10. I really don't know where you get the idea that these are "phases" in a believer's life, when they coexist. Please read again Romans 7. So, it is quite illogical for me, in the new man, to make apologies for the sins committed by the old man. To do so would be to reckon that Christ did not make full atonement for those sins and that I must somehow "make up the difference." No! Never!

Those "books" are merely short articles.
 
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mark273

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I can't make it any clearer than Paul did in Colossians 3:9&10. I really don't know where you get the idea that these are "phases" in a believer's life, when they coexist. Please read again Romans 7. So, it is quite illogical for me, in the new man, to make apologies for the sins committed by the old man. To do so would be to reckon that Christ did not make full atonement for those sins and that I must somehow "make up the difference." No! Never!

Paul in Colossians 3:9-10 is very clear, but I find your words confusing. My point is that Paul refers to a "you" who has (or have since in Greek the verbs are plural) put off the old man and put on the new. It is the same "you" who has done these two things. Thus they are not two different people as you seem to imply. In Philippians 3 Paul describes his life as an unbeliever (3:6). He recognizes those things as things that he did.

But this thread is supposed to be about repentance. Jesus says in Luke 24:47 that "repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations beginning at Jerusalem." Luke uses the word repentance here, and he was quoting Jesus and was strongly influenced by the Old Testament, no doubt the Hebrew word shuv would have been in his mind. That OT word for repentance simply meant "to turn."

Paul used the same idea to describe the conversion of the Thessalonians in 1 Thessalonians 1:9: "They tell how you turned from idols to serve the living and true God." Repentance is for Jews and Gentiles, for everyone. It is a part of the process of becoming a believer in Jesus, and it is something to be practiced for as long as we live in these unresurrected bodies.
 
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mark273

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Colossians 3:9-10 say this:

9"Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old [h]self with its evil practices, 10 and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him—"

Now you see in verse 9 the word "you." That word is the subject of both the verbs "laid aside" and "have put on." Now my question to you is, who is "you"?

The death of Christ makes it possible for a person to be forgiven, cleansed and sanctified. Those three words are Biblical words that describe what God does to a person when they believe. However, in your view (it appears to me), the person is not forgiven, cleansed and sanctified; the person is replaced with a totally new and different person. Replacement is not salvation. In your view no one is saved. The death of Christ doesn't redeem anyone. The old man cannot be redeemed, just replaced. The new man has not sinned and so also does not need redemption.

So again, who is the "you" in Colossians 3:9-10?
 
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mark273

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I do not understand how you can refer to a someone who acquires the new man and still is stuck with old man until death. So there are three different entities in a believer: the new man, the old man, and the self themselves? Are there more than three or is that it? And who is this person who acquires the new man but still lives with the old?
 
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