Is physical death part of God's original design

[SBG]

The Hewbrew word in Genesis 2:16-17's (die) meaning is physical death. This death is the result of sin. Sin is the separation from God, and the second death in Revelation is the permanent separation from God. When we don't accept Jesus, we are dead because we have chosen the second death.

How can any Christian not see that Jesus' death over came spiritual and physical death? He died on the Cross and by His blood we are saved. This refers to our spiritual life. Jesus Christ rose from the dead, in a physical body. Paul taught that we too will also receive a physical body, just like Christ. Thus showing that Jesus also conquered physical death.

We are still in sin, and because of our sin, our bodies are corrupt. They must be changed to in order to be raised immortal, as Paul teaches. Some will be changed through death as Jesus was, some will be here to see Christ's return and be changed in a twinkle of an eye. So some will not die and will be changed to be immortal. This second part of redemption happens upon Jesus' return.

Are people here now stating that Jesus won't do this? That Jesus didn't conquer physical death? That Paul was wrong when He said death has no mastery over Jesus? Paul refers to both spiritual and physical death here.

If you don't want to believe what Jesus has done, then it is your choice. If you truly want to understand, then stop being so closed minded.

Where in the Bible does it say that those who rejected Jesus will receive immortal bodies? Paul only talks about those who receive Jesus, will receive immortal bodies.

 

[gluadys]

Just to clarify: theistic evolution doesn't jive with a literal Fall at all. Literal death before the Fall might perhaps be understandable, but a literal Adam and Eve with evolution? It doesn't make sense. If evolution is true, then there would be many humans by the time Adam and Eve would have been on the scene; evolution completely contradicts a literal Fall. Anyone who tries to get around this is fooling himself.

It depends on what is meant by "literal" fall.

Does it mean that humanity literally fell into sin and separation from God? In other words is sin a human reality and the need for redemption and reconciliation real? I don't think any TE would disagree with this.

But if, in addition, it means that there was a literal garden in which a literal man and woman ate some literal fruit at a specific moment in time---then some TEs (not all) would have a problem with that.

I personally agree that a literal Adam and Eve make no evolutionary sense, but some TEs seem to think it is possible. On the other hand I think that while the story of the fall is myth, the fall is still a literal fact.

 

[The Lady Kate]

I do think that physical death was part of the grand design all along. God created light and darkness, good and evil, heaven and hell, life and death.

God's interest in us is in our souls, not our bodies. Christ showed us through his sacrifice that physical death is nothing to be feared by those who believe.

Even if we believe that physical death is "evil," we know as a matter of faith that God never allows any evil to happen unless some good can come from it.

Look at one example of what physical death does for the rest of God's creation: A body dies and decomposes, and feeds countless other organisms...fertilizer, anyone?

In the bigger picture (and let's not forget that God is always looking at the bigger picture), physical death is a necessary part of God's plan...a mechanism which keeps creation running along smoothly as clockwork...

A shame that some Christians would take the credit away from God and blame it on "The Fall."

 

[SBG]

I do think that physical death was part of the grand design all along. God created light and darkness, good and evil, heaven and hell, life and death.

God's interest in us is in our souls, not our bodies. Christ showed us through his sacrifice that physical death is nothing to be feared by those who believe.

How about Christ's physical resurrection? What does this part of His redemption tell you? He received a Body that is immortal and Paul teaches we too will receive one. Does this mean God does care about our bodies because He will give us an immortal one?

And if we are given an immortal body, why? The Bible says Jesus will come to restore all things. Do you think that the body becoming immortal falls under the 'restore all things?'

And if Jesus is to restore all things, there must have been a previous existence where things were as they will be.

Even if we believe that physical death is "evil," we know as a matter of faith that God never allows any evil to happen unless some good can come from it.

I don't think those who put it like this mean that. I don't think they have really understood enough to know what the Bible teaches on this.

God allows Satan to do his work. God also provides mercy within the work of Satan so that good can come out of it. Look at physical death for one.

Sin is what separates man from God. Physical death is the consequence of sin. Satan tempted man to sin, thus Satan brought about physical death; just as Jesus said. Physical death is also God's mercy on man. For one, how do you think Adam and Eve would feel knowing they brough sin into the world and lived forever to see what their one action has done to the rest of the world and their children? They would be crushed! Secondly, upon their disobeying God, they deserved the second death - permanent separation from God - instead God has mercy on them to only subject them to physical death - because God is Just and He must punish the sin - as the punishment for their act. During the life they have, before they physically die, they have the second chance to receive God's Grace.

Look at one example of what physical death does for the rest of God's creation: A body dies and decomposes, and feeds countless other organisms...fertilizer, anyone?

Upon our death, we go back to what we were made from. That is why the dead decompose, God told us this would happen in Genesis 3. Isn't that science?

In the bigger picture (and let's not forget that God is always looking at the bigger picture), physical death is a necessary part of God's plan...a mechanism which keeps creation running along smoothly as clockwork...

You are assuming here that nothing has ever changed. That sin has not changed this world. Paul teaches in Romans that it has changed this world. That the creation longs to be set free from bondage.

You are right, God always looks to the heart of the matter. We must still physically die because we are sinful, even with Jesus Christ as our Lord. God is still Just and still must punish sin. But we have received mercy, because God will raise us up again, with immortal bodies that will live forever, restoring us back to how He originally created us.

A shame that some Christians would take the credit away from God and blame it on "The Fall."

A shame that some Christians would say God is the bringer of physical death, instead of what Jesus actually said; that Satan is the bringer of physical and spiritual death? Only God has that power.

It is because of our sins that we still die physically. God must remain Just, but in His Justness, He grants mercy.

 

[The Lady Kate]

[/color][/font]

How about Christ's physical resurrection? What does this part of His redemption tell you? He received a Body that is immortal and Paul teaches we too will receive one. Does this mean God does care about our bodies because He will give us an immortal one?

Jesus received a body that was immortal because it's the easiest way of communicating with apostles who also had bodies. Should he have appeared to them as a burning bush after his resurrection?


I believe that Jesus came to set an example for us... that his lessons are in what he did as much as what he said. I also believe that to prove his point, Jesus did things physically to illustrate what we must do spiritually.

Jesus healed the sick, fed the hungry, and comforted people to set an example, and a symbolic one at that.

He resurrected his body from death to show, not tell, that we can resurrect our spirits from death.

I'll admit I don't have a verse from Scripture to back this up, it's just what I believe.

And if we are given an immortal body, why? The Bible says Jesus will come to restore all things. Do you think that the body becoming immortal falls under the 'restore all things?'

And if Jesus is to restore all things, there must have been a previous existence where things were as they will be.

Yes, there was. The time when we were in perfect communion with God. That is what's going to be restored...and I don't see how a physical body is necessary to do that.

Jesus says Satan is the bringer of death of the body and soul. It really sounds as if some TEs are rather saying, no Jesus is the bring of death of the body and Satan is the bringer of death of the soul.

Satan can bring death to the body. So can a gun. So can stepping out onto the street without looking both ways.

Bodies die...so what? The soul is what's important. And the danger of Satan is that he can kill a soul as easily as a body can be killed.

Again, does it matter what happens to the body? No...among the many lessons Jesus taught us through His sacrifice on the Cross is that what happens to our body is not important. The body can die, but so what? It can be restored.

It is the soul that is indispensible... and what we must guard at all times.

I don't think those who put it like this mean that. I don't think they have really understood enough to know what the Bible teaches on this.

Perhaps they're looking more at what Christ teaches on this.

God allows Satan to do his work. God also provides mercy within the work of Satan so that good can come out of it. Look at physical death for one.

Ok, looking...

Sin is what separates man from God. Physical death is the consequence of sin. Satan tempted man to sin, thus Satan brought about physical death; just as Jesus said.

Did Jesus say that Satan brought on physical death or that Satan brings on physical death?

My Hebrew's a little rusty...actually it's non-existent...and I'd really not get into a discussion of semantics on this.

Physical death is also God's mercy on man. For one, how do you think Adam and Eve would feel knowing they brough sin into the world and lived forever to see what their one action has done to the rest of the world and their children? They would be crushed!

So the same God that offers eternal life grants death as a mercy? That's His gift to us?

Secondly, upon their disobeying God, they deserved the second death - permanent separation from God - instead God has mercy on them to only subject them to physical death - because God is Just and He must punish the sin - as the punishment for their act. During the life they have, before they physically die, they have the second chance to receive God's Grace.

Which, without Christ, they never did.

Upon our death, we go back to what we were made from. That is why the dead decompose, God told us this would happen in Genesis 3. Isn't that science?

Indeed, and it feeds the rest of God's creation, exactly as I believe it was meant to.

God's not one to squander anything...everything has a purpose.

You are assuming here that nothing has ever changed. That sin has not changed this world. Paul teaches in Romans that it has changed this world. That the creation longs to be set free from bondage.

Well, I'm not about to argue with Paul, and I certainly agree that the world is different, but I don't think physical death is a part of that change. Too much good, at least on a physical level, comes by it.

I think the big change that occurred was the possibility of spiritual death. Through sin, our souls are now as vulnerable as our bodies.

You are right, God always looks to the heart of the matter. We must still physically die because we are sinful, even with Jesus Christ as our Lord. God is still Just and still must punish sin.

This is the same God that makes the sun shine on the good and the wicked, and the rain to fall on the just and the unjust. I don't see physical death as punishment for sin...that's what spiritual death is for.

But we have received mercy, because God will raise us up again, with immortal bodies that will live forever, restoring us back to how He originally created us.

We will be spiritually restored, not physically. Who needs a body in the presence of God?

A shame that some Christians would say God is the bringer of physical death, instead of what Jesus actually said; that Satan is the bringer of physical and spiritual death?

It is because of our sins that we still die physically. God must remain Just, but in His Justness, He grants mercy.

My experience tells me something different. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Vance]

Very good post, Lady Kate. I would just add that Jesus' taking on a new physical body is, indeed, an indication that we will also take on a new physical body after death. But we must remember that this is also the case for those who will be damned as well. We will all live eternally in our new physical, immortal bodies. But some of us will live in spiritual life, others in spiritual death.

Jesus did, indeed, create physical death, and that physical death is not evil. Animals live and die, without ever sinning, since sin is only something humans can do. Humans live and die whether they are still in their sin, or whether they have been redeemed from that sin. Exactly the same physical death. What is the difference? It is NOT that the redeemed with be physically resurrected, thus overcoming physical death. No, because the unredeemed will do that as well. The difference is that some will live forever in true Life, others in true Death.

To say that we still die physically because of our sin is to say that Jesus' redemption, and our acceptance of it, is not sufficient to wipe out sin. It does not actually send it as far as the west is from the east. Yes, we still sin, but those who have accepted God's sacrificial gift of salvation are under God's Grace. If Jesus died physically so that we don't have to die physically, but we still do, then Jesus' death was not effective. So, instead, it must be that Jesus died physically as a symbolic representation of our salvation from spiritual death.

I think part of the problem is the insistance of seeing only one-to-one correspondence. Physical death must equate, even as a symbol, with physical death. A literal Jesus must equate with a literal Adam. I just don't see why anyone thinks this is necessary, especially when we are talking about something being a symbol for something else.

 

[SBG]

Jesus received a body that was immortal because it's the easiest way of communicating with apostles who also had bodies. Should he have appeared to them as a burning bush after his resurrection?

Do you think that is the only reason Jesus received an immortal body? Paul teaches that without the resurrection, we are all doomed.

I believe that Jesus came to set an example for us... that his lessons are in what he did as much as what he said. I also believe that to prove his point, Jesus did things physically to illustrate what we must do spiritually.

Jesus healed the sick, fed the hungry, and comforted people to set an example, and a symbolic one at that.

I agree, but we are also to actually feed those who are hungry, with food and with His teachings. How does it profit the one who is in hunger to tell them only of spiritual things and deny them food?

Jesus feed 5000 men, plus women and children of those 5000 men with actual real food because they were hungry. He then preceded to tell them about God. He did the same again with 4000 men.

It is not just symbolic, and to see only as symbolic is really to miss it.

He resurrected his body from death to show, not tell, that we can resurrect our spirits from death.

Again, it is not just that. I agree the spirit is more important, but God seems to see value in our bodies. If not, why did He originally create them, before sin? Why will He resurrect our bodies? Because it is the way He created us, they way He meant for us to be. Now we our flesh is corrupt and wars against God.

This body we have that is corrupt and wars against God must be changed or die inorder for it to be restored.

I'll admit I don't have a verse from Scripture to back this up, it's just what I believe.

That is fine, but I would hope that you would value learning from Scripture and follow its teachings. I am not speaking about things that are apart from God. Test everything I say to see if it is in the Bible. And if it is taught in the Bible, should you not believe it?

Yes, there was. The time when we were in perfect communion with God. That is what's going to be restored...and I don't see how a physical body is necessary to do that.

Before sin, did man have a physical body or was he just a soul? What does the Bible teach you on this?

Satan can bring death to the body. So can a gun. So can stepping out onto the street without looking both ways.

Correct, but... when one murders, is it a sin? Who tempts us to sin? Satan. It all comes back to him and his temptations. We are resposible for how we act, but it is Satan who tempts us to do evil.

Bodies die...so what? The soul is what's important. And the danger of Satan is that he can kill a soul as easily as a body can be killed.

The soul is important and on the Cross Jesus shed His blood for our sins. This saves our soul, if we believe and follow Him. His resurrection is a picture of what is to come, to complete the redemption. We will be receive immortal bodies, just like Jesus did. Paul teaches this throughout all of his letters. Test what I say against the Bible. First start in 1 Corinthians 15:32-58, then Romans, 2 Corinthians, and the rest of his letters.

Again, does it matter what happens to the body? No...among the many lessons Jesus taught us through His sacrifice on the Cross is that what happens to our body is not important. The body can die, but so what? It can be restored.

Don't forget the resurrection. Without it, we are all doomed. What does Jesus say by His resurrection? That we too will receive bodies like His, immortal. That is the completion of redemption.

The Soul is the important one, that is why that work is completed. We await the coming of Jesus Christ who will raise the dead and those in Him will receive immortal bodies. Paul again teaches this. He taught this very often, it is much more important that you seem to realize.

It is the soul that is indispensible... and what we must guard at all times.

I agree, but don't over look the power of the resurrection.

Perhaps they're looking more at what Christ teaches on this.

What does Jesus teach you about His resurrection? What does Paul say about the resurrection? What does God say He will do with this world, when He comes?

Ok, looking...



Did Jesus say that Satan brought on physical death or that Satan brings on physical death?

Read Luke, and you will see.

My Hebrew's a little rusty...actually it's non-existent...and I'd really not get into a discussion of semantics on this.

The Hebrew word used in Genesis 2:16-17, is not defined as spiritual death. The only definition it can have is that of physical death. That is how the word is defined. Secondly, if you read the above passage, you will notice that it says 'in the day' not 'on the day.' This is figurative language, which basically says, in the day of sin you will physically die. It does not appoint a specific day, but rather says in those days of which you have sinned you will physically die.

The Greek in Luke says specifically attributes the killing of the body to Satan's work, as well as the being thrown into hell. We again are responsible, but Satan is the reason these things two deaths are here.

So the same God that offers eternal life grants death as a mercy? That's His gift to us?

Do you not see a second chance as mercy? We deserved to already receive the second death: permanent separation from God. God instead has mercy on us and gives us a lesser sentence, one which we have time to know Him and follow Him and be saved by Him.

You don't see that as mercy?

Which, without Christ, they never did.

That is true, if you take the position that Christ only came into existence around 4B.C. - 2 A.D.

God designed a way for mankind then to receive atonement. God is merciful still.

Indeed, and it feeds the rest of God's creation, exactly as I believe it was meant to.

God's not one to squander anything...everything has a purpose.

I wasn't suggesting otherwise. I was rather pointing to the fact that God told of this in Genesis, the chapters that we are told are mythical and don't speak anything of science. The dead decomposing is a scientific fact.

Well, I'm not about to argue with Paul, and I certainly agree that the world is different, but I don't think physical death is a part of that change. Too much good, at least on a physical level, comes by it.

I think the big change that occurred was the possibility of spiritual death. Through sin, our souls are now as vulnerable as our bodies.

Paul said Jesus will restore all things. He didn't include a but. So either you agree with Paul and the body is included, or you disagree with Paul.

Read 1 Corinthians 15. Paul speaks of Christ's resurrection and ours: those who are in Jesus Christ. When you have, tell me if you agree with Paul or disagree with Paul, when he says our bodies will be raised immortal.

Sin is simply separation from God. It is separation because God cannot look upon sin. Sin corrupts whatever it touches. We are sinful, therefore we are corrupt. The consequence of sin is death, physical death. The ultimate consequence of not choosing Jesus Christ, is the second death. We have not received God's full punishment for our sins yet. We can receive His mercy and choose Jesus Christ, thus He will save us from the second death, but the first death is still the consequence of our sinfulness.

Only dying physically is God's mecry, we don't deserve a second chance.

This is the same God that makes the sun shine on the good and the wicked, and the rain to fall on the just and the unjust. I don't see physical death as punishment for sin...that's what spiritual death is for.

That is what the Bible teaches in Genesis and in all of Paul's teachings. Again, you either agree with Paul or disagree with Paul. Read his letters, they are truly worth the read.

We will be spiritually restored, not physically. Who needs a body in the presence of God?

So you disagree with Paul then? 1 Corinthians 15:32-58

My experience tells me something different. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I am not speaking against you, I am trying to get you to go read Paul's writings. What I have said, is what he teaches. Paul was instructed by Jesus to teach what he taught.

If you don't agree with Paul, then I guess we just leave it at that.

God Bless

 

[SBG]

Very good post, Lady Kate. I would just add that Jesus' taking on a new physical body is, indeed, an indication that we will also take on a new physical body after death. But we must remember that this is also the case for those who will be damned as well. We will all live eternally in our new physical, immortal bodies. But some of us will live in spiritual life, others in spiritual death.

Please read Paul's teachings. He says that those in Jesus Christ will receive immortal bodies. He doesn't say the same for those who are not in Jesus Christ. Read 1 Corinthians 15.

Jesus did, indeed, create physical death, and that physical death is not evil. Animals live and die, without ever sinning, since sin is only something humans can do. Humans live and die whether they are still in their sin, or whether they have been redeemed from that sin. Exactly the same physical death. What is the difference? It is NOT that the redeemed with be physically resurrected, thus overcoming physical death. No, because the unredeemed will do that as well. The difference is that some will live forever in true Life, others in true Death.

Why won't you hear Paul's teachings? Why do you preach against what Paul taught?

To say that we still die physically because of our sin is to say that Jesus' redemption, and our acceptance of it, is not sufficient to wipe out sin. It does not actually send it as far as the west is from the east. Yes, we still sin, but those who have accepted God's sacrificial gift of salvation are under God's Grace. If Jesus died physically so that we don't have to die physically, but we still do, then Jesus' death was not effective. So, instead, it must be that Jesus died physically as a symbolic representation of our salvation from spiritual death.

You must understand that even though we have Jesus Christ in us, we still sin. Paul teaches this. Why do you do such a disservice to his teachings?

Jesus died and shed His blood for our sins so that He may cover our sins when God looks upon us. We are still sinful, but Jesus paid the price that we deserve. His resurrection shows us that we too will be raise with immortal bodies, but only those who are in Christ will receive immortal bodies.

Read Paul.

I think part of the problem is the insistance of seeing only one-to-one correspondence. Physical death must equate, even as a symbol, with physical death. A literal Jesus must equate with a literal Adam. I just don't see why anyone thinks this is necessary, especially when we are talking about something being a symbol for something else.

Jesus' physical death redeems us to spiritual life. Jesus' resurrection redeems us to physical life. Don't you know that what you sow does not come to life unless it dies?

How can this be that you choose to refute Paul's teachings on Jesus Christ?

 

[The Lady Kate]

[/color][/font]

Do you think that is the only reason Jesus received an immortal body? Paul teaches that without the resurrection, we are all doomed.

Of course, without Jesus overcoming physical death, we'd never know how we could overcome spiritual death.

Remember, the Hebrews had no concept of an afterlife. To them, death was death, and that was that. Jesus had to show that there was more...in a way they could understand.

I agree, but we are also to actually feed those who are hungry, with food and with His teachings. How does it profit the one who is in hunger to tell them only of spiritual things and deny them food?

Is it any better to do good deeds when your heart (spirit) is not in the right place? What does Paul say about that?

For that matter, what does Christ say?

Jesus feed 5000 men, plus women and children of those 5000 men with actual real food because they were hungry. He then preceded to tell them about God. He did the same again with 4000 men.

And what was the result? 9,000 people hanging on his every word.
He wouldn't be the first man to get an audience's attention with free food.
Not everything Jesus does is of Holy significance...some of it was quite practical.

It is not just symbolic, and to see only as symbolic is really to miss it.

Real acts with symbolic significance. To see it as only literal is to miss it even more.

Again, it is not just that. I agree the spirit is more important, but God seems to see value in our bodies. If not, why did He originally create them, before sin?

Why did He create anything? Ask Him.

Why will He resurrect our bodies? Because it is the way He created us, they way He meant for us to be. Now we our flesh is corrupt and wars against God.

Again, the Hebrews needed something they could understand... Having a brand-new body (or at least the old one, new and improved) is a bonus. Let us not let it distract us as it does now.

This body we have that is corrupt and wars against God must be changed or die inorder for it to be restored.

Out with the old, in with the new... as it happens in nature...also God's creation.
It still doesn't answer the question of why the animals die. They did not sin, and the God I know is a Just God who is not in the habit of punishing the innocent for the crimes of the guilty.

That is fine, but I would hope that you would value learning from Scripture and follow its teachings. I am not speaking about things that are apart from God.

Nothing in creation is apart from God... not even death. I choose to see it as a necessary function of what He has created.

Test everything I say to see if it is in the Bible. And if it is taught in the Bible, should you not believe it?

The Bible guides me, but it does not command me. As much as I follow and respect its teachings, there are those things on which I disagree. True faith is not blind faith.

Before sin, did man have a physical body or was he just a soul? What does the Bible teach you on this?

Man was physical and spiritual, with a body and soul...which of those make him different and unique from the rest of creation?

Correct, but... when one murders, is it a sin? Who tempts us to sin? Satan. It all comes back to him and his temptations. We are resposible for how we act, but it is Satan who tempts us to do evil.

True, but what is it about an evil act which is evil? The physical act, or the intention?
Kill a man on the battlefield, and you're a hero...kill a man in an alleyway, and you're a murderer. It is what is in your heart that makes you sin...and that is where Satan attacks us... not in the flesh, but in the spirit.

Bodies die, and I would hope you would care about this. Jesus says, Satan is the one who kills the body and the soul. (Luke 12:5) This is different than your statement above. It isn't a comparison, it is a statement.

Luke 12:5But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

And a true statement at that. Anything can kill the body...it is, all things considered, a fragile thing. Satan can kill the soul as easily as a gunshot can kill the body.

The soul is important and on the Cross Jesus shed His blood for our sins. This saves our soul, if we believe and follow Him. His resurrection is a picture of what is to come, to complete the redemption. We will be receive immortal bodies, just like Jesus did.



Paul teaches this throughout all of his letters. Test what I say against the Bible. First start in 1 Corinthians 15:32-58, then Romans, 2 Corinthians, and the rest of his letters.

Good for us, but that, IMHO, is just a bonus. Our reward is spiritual, not physical.

Don't forget the resurrection. Without it, we are all doomed. What does Jesus say by His resurrection? That we too will receive bodies like His, immortal. That is the completion of redemption.

The Soul is the important one, that is why that work is completed. We await the coming of Jesus Christ who will raise the dead and those in Him will receive immortal bodies. Paul again teaches this. He taught this very often, it is much more important that you seem to realize.

I agree, but don't over look the power of the resurrection.

I've already commented on what I think the resurrection means.

What does Jesus teach you about His resurrection? What does Paul say about the resurrection? What does God say He will do with this world, when He comes?


Read Luke, and you will see.

I shall...as well as Matthew, Mark, and John.

The Hebrew word used in Genesis 2:16-17, is not defined as spiritual death. The only definition it can have is that of physical death. That is how the word is defined. Secondly, if you read the above passage, you will notice that it says 'in the day' not 'on the day.' This is figurative language, which basically says, in the day of sin you will physically die. It does not appoint a specific day, but rather says in those days of which you have sinned you will physically die.

1: This is exactly what I wanted to avoid... turning this into a study of the idiosyncracies of 5000-year-old Hebrew grammar.

2: As I said before, the Hebrew idea of afterlife was rather limited. Of course Genesis is going to be told in terms they can understand: death=bad.

3: Seeing as how Adam did not physically die on the day he sinned, but lived to the ripe old age of 930, I have a problem seeing that passage as referring to physical death.

The Greek in Luke says specifically attributes the killing of the body to Satan's work, as well as the being thrown into hell. We again are responsible, but Satan is the reason these things two deaths are here.

IIRC, the Greek concept of afterlife wasn't much more advanced than the Hebrews... a good writer knows his audience.

Do you not see a second chance as mercy? We deserved to already receive the second death: permanent separation from God. God instead has mercy on us and gives us a lesser sentence, one which we have time to know Him and follow Him and be saved by Him.

You don't see that as mercy?

I prefer to see life as a gift, and no sin so great that physical death is a blessing.

Besides, where in the Bible do you see Adam and Eve wracked with guilt over what they had done?

(perhaps this is as good a time as any to point out that I read Genesis allegorically, not literally... but by now, you've probably already figured that out.)

That is true, if you take the position that Christ only came into existence around 4B.C. - 2 A.D.

God designed a way for mankind then to receive atonement. God is merciful still.

I wasn't suggesting otherwise. I was rather pointing to the fact that God told of this in Genesis, the chapters that we are told are mythical and don't speak anything of science. The dead decomposing is a scientific fact.

Indeed it is a fact, which was not lost on the ancient Hebrews. Remember, the Hebrews were surrounded by some of the most advanced scientific minds of the ancient world...the Egyptians and Babylonians for example. Is it hard to imagine that the Hebrews would preserve some of their learning in their religious texts?

Paul said Jesus will restore all things. He didn't include a but. So either you agree with Paul and the body is included, or you disagree with Paul.

Then I will disagree with you. Jesus will restore all things...and he will give us immortal bodies. I just don't see those two things as being necessarily connected.

Read 1 Corinthians 15. Paul speaks of Christ's resurrection and ours: those who are in Jesus Christ. When you have, tell me if you agree with Paul or disagree with Paul, when he says our bodies will be raised immortal.

Have I disagreed that we will be made immortal? No.

Sin is simply separation from God. It is separation because God cannot look upon sin. Sin corrupts whatever it touches. We are sinful, therefore we are corrupt. The consequence of sin is death, physical death. The ultimate consequence of not choosing Jesus Christ, is the second death. We have not received God's full punishment for our sins yet. We can receive His mercy and choose Jesus Christ, thus He will save us from the second death, but the first death is still the consequence of our sinfulness.

Only dying physically is God's mecry, we don't deserve a second chance.

And in that we must disagree, because everything dies, and I cannot for the life of me imagine what my potted plants could have done to displease God.

That is what the Bible teaches in Genesis and in all of Paul's teachings. Again, you either agree with Paul or disagree with Paul. Read his letters, they are truly worth the read.

If that is what Paul says, then I will have to disagree with Paul on this one.

Does that shock you?

So you disagree with Paul then? 1 Corinthians 15:32-58

I suppose I should clarify myself. We shall be physically resurrected, but as I said, that's not the point, now is it?

I am not speaking against you, I am trying to get you to go read Paul's writings. What I have said, is what he teaches. Paul was instructed by Jesus to teach what he taught.

If you don't agree with Paul, then I guess we just leave it at that.

God Bless

Paul said many things, and I don't agree with them all. I guess we will have to leave it at that.

 

[The Lady Kate]

I think part of the problem is the insistance of seeing only one-to-one correspondence. Physical death must equate, even as a symbol, with physical death. A literal Jesus must equate with a literal Adam. I just don't see why anyone thinks this is necessary, especially when we are talking about something being a symbol for something else.

I think we can thank Paul for this...he used the one-to-one correspondence to make the message clearer, but it may be that in his desire to wrap up everything so neatly, the original message got slightly muddled.

Edited to add: Grrr.... I just noticed I picked the wrong choice on the poll...I mean to say "no literal fall."

 

[shernren]

Where in the Bible does it say that those who rejected Jesus will receive immortal bodies? Paul only talks about those who receive Jesus, will receive immortal bodies.

Right here:

[BIBLE]Revelation 21:8[/BIBLE]

So tell me, what exactly is "spiritual sulfur", "spiritual fire" or a "spiritual lake"? Aren't these physical terms for physical things? Or is it *gasp* a metaphor?

Now, if you say the result of Jesus' work on the cross was to give us immortal bodies, then we have a dilemma:
1. The wicked are physically tortured, and therefore have access to Jesus' redemptive work, although they rejected Him, or
2. The wicked are not physically tortured, in which case they are not tortured at all, which runs counter to many passages of Scripture.

In a sentence, one has to choose between annihilationism and universalism.

Bodies die...so what? The soul is what's important. And the danger of Satan is that he can kill a soul as easily as a body can be killed.

Where in the Bible does it say Satan can kill the soul? Here?

[BIBLE]Luke 12:5[/BIBLE]

But I don't think that part is talking about Satan: firstly because it's the only place in the Bible where we have to fear Satan. We are told to be cautious of him, to flee from his temptations, to resist him, to respect himeven (Jude) but to fear him? Doesn't John say "perfect love casts out all fear"? Don't the Psalms talk about us not fearing anyone in comparison to fearing the Lord? Secondly, where did Satan get the prerogative to cast souls into hell? Last time I read Revelation I remember it was God doing that.

This passage is an admonition for us to fear God. Which makes sense in light of the previous passage, where Jesus is talking about being bold with your testimony: the reason being that God knows you privately, in and out, and has the power to cast the unbeliever into hell. Substituting "Satan" for "God" back there makes no sense.

We are still stuck at the question of how God can grant immortal bodies to unbelievers. But as far as I see the whole problem is one of dualism. The body and the soul have no real meaning independent of one another or as separable parts of the complete human. The independent physical body and the independent spiritual soul are something like quarks: useful theoretical constructs, but hey, you can't isolate them without losing what they mean.

It is within the holistic framework of assessing the whole person that we must understand God's promise of death at the Fall. He did not mean purely physical death, for why would He rescind this physical death for unrepentant people; He did not mean purely spiritual death either, or why does Scripture describe the unrepentant as going through physical suffering? (Otherwise what are spiritual "worms" and "sulfur" and "smoke" and "lake"....) What He meant was the death of the whole person: a shriveling and wasting of everything a person is and has, body, soul, mind, spirit etc. from estrangement from a Creator he was made to commune with.

I know that holism is hard to wrap the mind around. But we must remember that dualism is ultimately a foreign, Greek mode of thought that inspired the Gnostic and Arian heresies.

 

[gluadys]

I know that holism is hard to wrap the mind around. But we must remember that dualism is ultimately a foreign, Greek mode of thought that inspired the Gnostic and Arian heresies.

I have to agree. It is really hard to get back to the biblical holism after so many centuries of the church embracing Greek dualism.

The whole notion that we "have" souls rather than that we "are" souls is Platonism, not Judaism. I think the doctrine of the immortal soul has no place in biblical Christianity, even though it is dogma for Catholics and some other Christians.

I don't believe Adam & Eve were created immortal. Immortality was offered to them in the Tree of Life. It was not part of their created nature. Immortality is offered to us through Jesus Christ.

So I agree with the posters who have said that redemption was not redemption from physical death in this world. It was redemption from sin (aka spiritual death) and from the second death of the next world. For to escape the second death, this body must put on immortality.

 

[TheBear]

Where do you stand on physical death and why? Please provide Scriptural references if you can.

This goes to the question - Was Adam created mortal or immortal?

Let's see how this aspect of the discussion unfolds.