Is Organ Donation Wrong?

[Chesterton]

.

 

[Lukaris]

No, Pastoral Guidelines: Church Positions Regarding the Sanctity of Human Life — Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

 

[Chesterton]

That's good to know. I had stumbled across an article saying EO didn't approve of it, but it didn't identify who wrote it or anything. Anyways, I'm glad I asked. Thanks Lukaris.

 

[ikonographics]

There is a great deal of debate about the matter in the Orthodox Church. In order for a person's organs to be used, the donor cannot be dead, their heart must still be beating. Science keeps redefining death in order to use people as spare parts. Often people who are registered organ donors are not saved (when they can be) simply so that their organ's can be used. The person may be "brain dead" but how do we know that the moment we decide to "pull the plug" that they are not repenting and being reconciled to the Lord?
There are a lot of interesting links from an Orthodox site, but they're all in Greek.

 

[choirfiend]

Also--How many of the "brain dead" could survive if taken off of life support? If the body is not capable of keeping itself going, then an extended period of life support can been seen in Orthodox light as artificially keeping the body "alive" when the body is trying to die. The Orthodox definition of death is the soul leaving the body. Then the body cannot stay alive; it needs the soul to live. So, if the body is trying to die, but breathing is maintained through machines, then is it quite acceptable to allow the body to cease functioning and accept the natural progression of death of the body, and then to give the gift of organ donation.

So, while the main disagreement is about the preservation of life and respect of the body as a temple, donating an organ is wholly acceptable when removed from any dispute with the above issues. For example, donating blood, bone marrow, and kidneys don't have any controversy, and from this we see that donating organs is ok. We just want to make sure that people are NOT being harvested for their organs.

 

[ikonographics]

Are their not numerous miracles of people waking up after years in comas and being declared "brain dead"?

Just one example: Italian Coma Victim Awakens After Two Years, Says He Heard Everything

 

[choirfiend]

It doesn't seem that he was on life support. I'm not talking about people who are LIVING, and perhaps need only food to continue to live (like poor Terry Schiavo.) Just because someone is lying there and not able to move--that doesn't mean they are dead.

I'm talking about the people whose bodies are dead--their breathing and heart beat being continued only by machines breathing for them. Those are the people who are sometimes removed from life support and who choose to donate their organs.

The objections you are bringing up are not actual cases where organ donation occurs. I have no problem with what you're saying---people who lack brain activity don't count as "dead" to me. No matter what science says, the Orthodox definition of death has ALWAYS been the separation of the body and soul. And, neither can exist without the other in the human person. So, a body that is dying (or would die without life support injured to the point where there is no hope of recovery or healing) is trying to die naturally, and there is no valid argument in the Orthodox Church against allowing the organs of a deceased person to be given to a person whose life would be saved.

 

[rdhosken]

This may be OK theoretically, but it opens the door to declaring terminally ill people as dead already so their organs can be harvested, then declaring mentally ill people as dead already, then declaring old people as dead already, then declaring Orthodox people as dead already so their organs can be.... Get the idea? Where does it stop?

 

[Michael G]

Also--How many of the "brain dead" could survive if taken off of life support? If the body is not capable of keeping itself going, then an extended period of life support can been seen in Orthodox light as artificially keeping the body "alive" when the body is trying to die. The Orthodox definition of death is the soul leaving the body. Then the body cannot stay alive; it needs the soul to live. So, if the body is trying to die, but breathing is maintained through machines, then is it quite acceptable to allow the body to cease functioning and accept the natural progression of death of the body, and then to give the gift of organ donation.

So, while the main disagreement is about the preservation of life and respect of the body as a temple, donating an organ is wholly acceptable when removed from any dispute with the above issues. For example, donating blood, bone marrow, and kidneys don't have any controversy, and from this we see that donating organs is ok. We just want to make sure that people are NOT being harvested for their organs.

No, it is not. I will have to go find the articles written by Dr. Paul Byrnes, a Neo-Natologist and expert in the area of "brain death". While being Roman Catholic and not Orthodox, Dr. Byrnes is in complete agreement with Orthodox teaching on the matters of medical ethics. He taught me some 15 years ago that organ donation is morally and ethically wrong. You can not take a living organ from a dead body. He defines death as being the cessation of brain and heart function. Donating blood does not have any ethical question to it. Nor does a kidney because the person can live with one kidney, just as the person can make more blood. The problem becomes with things like livers and hearts where the person has just one and needs those things to live.

 

[choirfiend]

Right--you can only take organs from a body that is being kept alive by machines--ie oxygen in blood, blood moving through body.

Organ donation - OrthodoxWiki

At the bottom is listed a bunch of links to various resources and commentaries on the web on the subject. What I see is lists of areas of concern to be sure to address, but I've never heard a condemnation of organ donation unless it is talking about "harvesting" organs from live people. The Church doesn't teach against it.

 

[choirfiend]

This may be OK theoretically, but it opens the door to declaring terminally ill people as dead already so their organs can be harvested, then declaring mentally ill people as dead already, then declaring old people as dead already, then declaring Orthodox people as dead already so their organs can be.... Get the idea? Where does it stop?

It should stop at your own wishes, your family having some common sense, and your priest being there as well. It stops there, at that strawman.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Is Organ Donation Wrong?

Of course not! You're free to donate your pipe organs, pianos, harpsichords, or any other instruments to the musical performer of your choice!

(Sorry, couldn't resist! )

 

[Michael G]

Of course not! You're free to donate your pipe organs, pianos, harpsichords, or any other instruments to the musical performer of your choice!

(Sorry, couldn't resist! )

 

[Chesterton]

Of course not! You're free to donate your pipe organs, pianos, harpsichords, or any other instruments to the musical performer of your choice!

(Sorry, couldn't resist! )

 

[rdhosken]

I wrote:

This may be OK theoretically, but it opens the door to declaring terminally ill people as dead already so their organs can be harvested, then declaring mentally ill people as dead already, then declaring old people as dead already, then declaring Orthodox people as dead already so their organs can be.... Get the idea? Where does it stop?
​

Then Choirfriend replied:
It should stop at your own wishes, your family having some common sense, and your priest being there as well. It stops there, at that strawman.

My reply to Choirfriend:
Right, it *should* stop at one's own wishes and the decision of the family with the advice of their priest *only* when the person is brain dead. But unfortunately it doesn't always work that way in the real world. Once you let the genie out of the bottle, you can't get it back in again.

I've lived in Russia for 17 years and know of cases where the adult children of sick people will intentionally "help their parent along" by denying food and water (with the help of medical staff), or even physically abuse the parent in order to get their apartments. This is the real world, Choirgirl, not just a strawman argument.

 

[choirfiend]

Then the problem is the abuses--not the essential argument. No one is saying that elder abuse is ok, but it's not directly related to organ donation! As you admit, they want the apartments. We have laws against the abuses, and Orthodoxy is certainly against that kind of behavior. Organ donation is not wrong, even if there are ways people can abuse it. In that way, it is like ANYTHING else in life. There is always a right and a wrong way to do things, but they may or may not be wrong in essence. So your contribution is a very good red herring to the argument!

 

[Gym]

I wrote:

​

I've lived in Russia for 17 years and know of cases where the adult children of sick people will intentionally "help their parent along" by denying food and water (with the help of medical staff), or even physically abuse the parent in order to get their apartments. This is the real world, Choirgirl, not just a strawman argument.

an unfortunate truth, btu nevertheless the arguement I think is more about organ donation in general. As opposed to these situations where people have no ethics

 

[rusmeister]

I've lived in Russia for 17 years

Hi RD! (From a fellow American in Russia...)

 

[Ave Maria]

There is a great deal of debate about the matter in the Orthodox Church. In order for a person's organs to be used, the donor cannot be dead, their heart must still be beating. Science keeps redefining death in order to use people as spare parts. Often people who are registered organ donors are not saved (when they can be) simply so that their organ's can be used. The person may be "brain dead" but how do we know that the moment we decide to "pull the plug" that they are not repenting and being reconciled to the Lord?
There are a lot of interesting links from an Orthodox site, but they're all in Greek.

You say that the donor must be dead. Does this apply to kidney donations where a living person willingly consents to giving one of their healthy kidneys to another person who needs one?

 

[ikonographics]

You say that the donor must be dead. Does this apply to kidney donations where a living person willingly consents to giving one of their healthy kidneys to another person who needs one?

No it doesn't apply in the case of kidneys, where the donor has two healthy kidneys and can live a healthy life with only one.