Is Once Saved Always Saved Biblical?

Bible Highlighter · Mar 30, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
It is worth noting that Hebrews 6 makes it clear that we cant be born again twice because that would be to shame the blood of Jesus (as if it couldn't do the job first time around)

Hebrews 6:4-6 is not dealing with backsliding into ordinary sin and going prodigal for a temporary time in our life (as long as we repent) (Note: For prodigal verses (temporary backsliding) see Luke 15:11-32, and James 5:19-20). Hebrews 6:4-6 is dealing with apostasy and or a rejection of Jesus Christ as one's Savior. The author of Hebrews is trying to convince those Messianic Jews (i.e. Jewish Christians) to not go back to the old Jewish religion so as to avoid persecution for Jesus Christ. To do so would be to willfully sin whereby there remains no more sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 10:26).

Kenny'sID · Mar 30, 2021

Albion said:
But if we take that view, it means that his sheep are NOT all his sheep and that they do NOT hear his voice. Yet the passage says the opposite.

Exactly, but no, It doesn't say the opposite, there will be many that think they are his sheep, but they are not because they dont believe, they just say they do, and in their view, that is all it takes.

Albion · Mar 30, 2021

Kenny'sID said:
Exactly, but no, It doesn't say the opposite, there will be many that think they are his sheep, but they are not because they dont believe, they just say they do, and in their view, that is all it takes.

I must disagree. That verse doesn't say anything about what those sheep think themselves. Rather, it describes what the Lord thinks of them (and of course also that they are secure with him).

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand."

Carl Emerson · Mar 30, 2021

Kenny'sID said:
When we refuse to, or stop obeying and begin to live in sin, we are no longer his Sheep.

True believers are constrained by the Holy Spirit not to do this.

Carl Emerson · Mar 30, 2021

Albion said:
Very well, then the "bottom line" to this issue is that the POV which goes like this: "I am a Christian so I can do whatever I want because I am assured of salvation" is not possible in the case of someone who actually has Faith.

If you have saving Faith, you will never adopt that attitude. Therefore, that view does not bear upon the debate over OSAS vs freewill.

Agree...

Carl Emerson · Mar 30, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Does spiritual death equate with a loss of salvation in your view? Remember, the father said his son was also lost, and now he is found, too.

No... not a loss of salvation but a loss of communion.

bling · Mar 30, 2021

Friedrich Rubinstein said:
The Bible is absolutely clear on the fact that only few will be saved, so I am not sure where the issue with the free will is? God didn't intend everyone to be saved when He created the world - that's why there is "the elect".

Why the nonelect?

Carl Emerson · Mar 30, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
What do you mean that the Lord intervened directly by Grace? Are you saying that even if you continued down a road of sin, you would still be saved? Are you saying that the Lord forced you to come back against your own free will to repent of your mortal sins and to then walk uprightly?

Yes.. I cannot attribute my returning to the Lord to myself.

His Grace alone bought me back.

"Are you saying that even if you continued down a road of sin, you would still be saved?

That is a non question... To His own He says "this far and no further..."

Are you saying that the Lord forced you to come back against your own free will to repent of your mortal sins and to then walk uprightly?

Love does not force - Love constrains, love draws one back to fellowship.

However surrendering ones will to Him is what being born again is all about.

bling · Mar 30, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
The prodigal son was not physically dead He was spiritually dead and by Grace found His way back to Kingdom blessing where there is truth and life. (so much that the elder brother was jealous of him) There is no record of him renouncing his faith.
There is a sin that is unforgivable - I never committed that.

As for James 5... this is confirmation that what I claim is true - there were folks appointed to assist my journey back.
Jesus did not want me to eternally die as a Father loves a son - so He intervened directly by Grace.

Incidently If you don't believe God does this you can give no hope to folks who slip away into sin - rather you sit in judgement over them.

Does a spirituallt dead person need to first be made alive again to be saved?

Carl Emerson · Mar 30, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
I am not trying to judge you personally in any way. That is not my thing. I believe the most wicked of sinners can change by God's grace. Look at the apostle Paul. Who would have thought Saul (a persecutor of Christians) would have been a great servant of God? All I am here to do is teach the proper view on sin and salvation according to the Bible. So it's not personal, and I am not looking through down the hammer of judgment upon anyone. For even I need God's grace, as well. The point here is that God's Word does not teach that we can turn His grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). So I am attacking the wrong belief and not any actual person here.

No I was not feeling judged by you - I was making the general observation that those who hold the position that a believer can loose salvation, judge prodigals as such. Their theology does not allow for hope of return to the Father.

bling · Mar 30, 2021

MMXX said:
It's inconceivable to me that I would turn away from the Lord and no longer fear Him. There's no scenario I've thought up that would cause that. As a matter of fact the worse the scenario, the more I would cling to the Lord. I've had my spells of a certain amount of complacency, but that's always had its limits (1 Corinthians 10:13). The Spirit always brings me out of it. It's a no lose situation.

If you go around seeking a carnal type of "love" (selfishness) which can come from seeking the praise of others, lusting, love of money, revenge, taking advantage of people, and apathy, you will loss your desire for true unselfish, unconditional type Love. If your desire for Godly type Love loses it's value you can just give it away (like Esau gave his birthright away and the Hebrew writer warned us against).
I have seen this happen.

Carl Emerson · Mar 30, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Scripture tells me to work out my salvation with fear and trembling, but by what you described so far, that does not sound like the same view of salvation as described in Philippians 2:12.

My conversion at 13 included a close encounter with the Jesus. Baptism followed. My return to faith was more dramatic - no lack of fear and trembling.

He goes out after the one...

I am eternally grateful.

Carl Emerson · Mar 30, 2021

bling said:
Does a spirituallt dead person need to first be made alive again to be saved?

The topic is dealing with the prodigal experience not the conversion of the unsaved.

Kenny'sID · Mar 30, 2021

Albion said:
I must disagree. That verse doesn't say anything about what those sheep think themselves. Rather, it describes what the Lord thinks of them (and of course also that they are secure with him).

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand."

It's not a matter of what they think, and God needs mention no more than he did. God already said they hear his voice, and if they hear his voice they know they must do more than just say they believe.

It's how people take what he said, some assume they are his sheep just because they "say" they believe, and if they don't do his will, they are not his sheep.

In order to be his sheep we must truly believe, and in order to truly believe, we must obey. Many think we do not need to obey to become his sheep, and in their minds, they still cannot be plucked from Gods hand:

Jesus said; “Those who believe in the Son have eternal life, but those who do not obey the Son will never have life. God’s anger stays on them.” John 3:36

To believe is to obey.

This is not he least bit unclear to many of us. Are you saying they are Gods sheep just because they say they are, or say they believe, even if they do not obey? Or that God is saying they are his sheep, even if thry don't obey?

Friedrich Rubinstein · Mar 30, 2021

bling said:
Why the nonelect?

Do I understand your question correctly? Are you asking why God never planned that everyone would be saved?

Carl Emerson · Mar 30, 2021

bling said:
If you go around seeking a carnal type of "love" (selfishness) which can come from seeking the praise of others, lusting, love of money, revenge, taking advantage of people, and apathy, you will loss your desire for true unselfish, unconditional type Love. If your desire for Godly type Love loses it's value you can just give it away (like Esau gave his birthright away and the Hebrew writer warned us against).
I have seen this happen.

His indwelling presence does not allow this to happen in a true believer.

Albion · Mar 30, 2021

Kenny'sID said:
It's not a matter of what they think, and God needs mention no more than he did. God already said they hear his voice, and if they hear his voice they know they must do more than just say they believe.

It's how people take what he said, some assume they are his sheep just because they "say" they believe, and if they don't do his will, they are not his sheep.

In order to be his sheep we must truly believe, and in order to truly believe, we must obey. Many think we do not need to obey to become his sheep, and in their minds, they still cannot be plucked from Gods hand

I see. It appears that we are in substantial agreement after all. It may be that referring to the sheep that aren't really sheep got in the way.

bling · Mar 30, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
The topic is dealing with the prodigal experience not the conversion of the unsaved.

If the person is spiritually dead are they not lost at that time or can a person be both live and dead?

Carl Emerson · Mar 30, 2021

bling said:
If the person is spiritually dead are they not lost at that time or can a person be both live and dead?

Physically alive - spiritually lost.

Kenny'sID · Mar 30, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
True believers are constrained by the Holy Spirit not to do this.

And sometimes non true believers think they are true believers when they are not.

Is Once Saved Always Saved Biblical?

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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