Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?

[djconklin]

If obedience was not necessary then why would repentance be a requirement?

Excellant question!

Salvation is necessary and is accomplished only through faith.

True works and obedience are necessary and are accomplished only through faith.

Good points!

We can start by noting why we need to be saved in the first place--because we have NOT obeyed, we have NOT loved as we are supposed to. If you are obeying you are loving--who doesn't want to live a life of love?

As the Bible says "Cease to do evil, learn to do good."

 

[digdeep]

If obedience was not necessary then why would repentance be a requirement? Why would God tell us to turn away from sin and then tell us we do not have to then live a life free from sin. We repent from all sin, so we are to live apart from all sin.

Saved from sin to live in sin? I think NOT.

Eph 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Salvation from our past sin is from faith and as has already been quoted our efforts to be free from sin is as filthy rags, also Jer 17:9The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

We don't have any strength to obey and yet there are many verses that say to love God is to obey him. Here's one Jhn 14:15If ye love me, keep my commandments.

How can we obey? When we are saved (Justification) our sins are removed by grace through faith, this is impossible for us to do and is a gift. The same thing happens in our walk (sanctification) we live in obedience and that is also a gift through faith.

Jam 2:20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jhn 15:4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Jhn 15:5I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

The fruits come from the vine, but there must be fruit or else

Jhn 15:2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:

Salvation is necessary and is accomplished only through faith.

True works and obedience are necessary and are accomplished only through faith.

Yes, obedience is necessary because those who are Saved by Grace obeys. Yet don't take that to mean that obedience helps you to be saved or even keeps you saved. Jesus said "IF YOU LOVE ME, keep my commandments" John 14:15 obedience is the FRUIT of love. obedience is NOT love but the result of love.

"because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." Heb 10:14

The bible is clear. We have ALREADY been made perfect by the doing and dying of Jesus. PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE. And it is to those who are not yet perfect in PRACTICE but are being made holy. There is no seperation of justification and santification. You can't have justification and not be expericencing santification. But it is important to understand that santification is the FRUIT of justification and not the root.

The Gospel tells us what Jesus has done for us. Jesus said "Repent and Believe the Gospel." Repentance and Faith is a response to the Good News of our Salvation in Jesus Christ.

I pray this helps.

DD

 

[ricker]

Yes, obedience is necessary because those who are Saved by Grace obeys. Yet don't take that to mean that obedience helps you to be saved or even keeps you saved. Jesus said "IF YOU LOVE ME, keep my commandments" John 14:15 obedience is the FRUIT of love. obedience is NOT love but the result of love.

"because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." Heb 10:14

The bible is clear. We have ALREADY been made perfect by the doing and dying of Jesus. PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE. And it is to those who are not yet perfect in PRACTICE but are being made holy. There is no seperation of justification and santification. You can't have justification and not be expericencing santification. But it is important to understand that santification is the FRUIT of justification and not the root.

The Gospel tells us what Jesus has done for us. Jesus said "Repent and Believe the Gospel." Repentance and Faith is a response to the Good News of our Salvation in Jesus Christ.

I pray this helps.

DD

Forgive me for saying this, I mean no disrespect to anyone, but it is both heartening and refreshing to find Adventists such as you who have a clear understanding on salvation and where it comes from. You give me hope for the many Adventists in my family. I honestly could and would become an Adventist again if they could just embrace the salvation that is given as a gift from God. You are spot on with your posts. I wish I had your clarity in writing. I have no problem with going to church on the Sabbath and with most of the other teachings of SDA's.("Unclean" meat prohibition being the main exception, that's just silly) .
God bless! Ricker

 

[Jon0388g]

Yes, obedience is necessary because those who are Saved by Grace obeys. Yet don't take that to mean that obedience helps you to be saved or even keeps you saved.

DD,

If obedience does not "keep you saved", then the flipside is disobedience does not forfeit salvation! Is that what you believe the Bible teaches?

"because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." Heb 10:14

The bible is clear. We have ALREADY been made perfect by the doing and dying of Jesus. PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE. And it is to those who are not yet perfect in PRACTICE but are being made holy. There is no seperation of justification and santification. You can't have justification and not be expericencing santification. But it is important to understand that santification is the FRUIT of justification and not the root.

The Gospel tells us what Jesus has done for us. Jesus said "Repent and Believe the Gospel." Repentance and Faith is a response to the Good News of our Salvation in Jesus Christ.

I pray this helps.

DD

Amen I agree with this.

"Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord." Hebrews 12:14


Jon

 

[Adventtruth]

DD,

If obedience does not "keep you saved", then the flipside is disobedience does not forfeit salvation! Is that what you believe the Bible teaches?

Yes thats bible truth. A lack of faith in Christ is what forfits salvation. IF it where disobedience that negated your salvation, then you would be lost like the rest of humanity.

(Gal 5:1) Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
(Gal 5:2) Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
(Gal 5:3) For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
(Gal 5:4) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.



(Eph 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(Eph 2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
(Eph 2:10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


AT

 

[Jon0388g]

Yes thats bible truth. A lack of faith in Christ is what forfits salvation. IF it where disobedience that negated your salvation, then you would be lost like the rest of humanity.

Yes, you are correct AT. Disobedience does negate my salvation. That is why daily repentance is necessary - involving confession of sin, and turning away from it. Do you show faith in Christ when committing a wilfull act of disobedience? Of course not. That is Bible truth.

(Gal 5:1) Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
(Gal 5:2) Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
(Gal 5:3) For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
(Gal 5:4) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.



(Eph 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(Eph 2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
(Eph 2:10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


AT

AT,

I could quote just as many Scripture stating that the doers of the law shall be justified. I am sure you know of them, so these isolated passages cannot be used in order to make of none-effect our duty to obey.

Doesn't Paul say we are slaves to whom we obey? Either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?! That is very much to the contrary of what you are suggesting: obey sin resulting in life regardless.



Jon

 

[digdeep]

DD,

If obedience does not "keep you saved", then the flipside is disobedience does not forfeit salvation! Is that what you believe the Bible teaches?

you got it!! The sinner's defects are covered by the perfection of Jesus. and accepting this is the only way you will truly obey!! And the more I experience the Grace of Jesus covering my sins the more I want to overcome them. That does not seem logical. But the Gospel is not logical.

"However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Romans 4:5 Justifies the wicked?

I know you may be asking "what's the motivation for obedience if you're not saved by it, If Christ righeousness covers our defects then what's to stop us from living a life of sin?" LOVE! "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments," 1 John 5:3
The person who truly believes does not play loose with God's Grace. The Holy Spirit indwells true believers.

check out these texts:
"The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:20,21

What Paul meant by this statement is this: "It doesn't matter how terrible a sinner you are, the gospel has saved you."

Now Paul is NOT saying Let us keep on sinning that grace may abound. But he IS saying if you sin grace will abound. You do see the difference, right?

Paul says it more strongly in chapter 6. "For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace." verse 14. Paul is saying that everytime you fall the law cannot condemn you because you're no longer under it. It means that sin has no longer authority to execute you. The Gospel proclaims that we are free from the condemnation of the law and its curse.

Now if this is true should we not just sin, sin, and sin? We already saw that love motivates us not to sin, but notice what has happen to the believer:

"1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?" Romans 6:1-3

Notice it's not because if you do you will be condemned. NO! It's because you have died to it when you were baptized into Christ. In other words your Faith in Jesus for salvation was also the means of your death to sin.

If you read and study Romans you will see that the FEAR FACTOR is totally removed from the christian.

DD

Amen I agree with this.

"Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord." Hebrews 12:14


Jon

A genuine acceptance of Christ always brings sanctification. For the true Christian is always desiring to be more like Jesus. But make no mistake, ONLY Jesus' righteousness CREDITED to you gives you access to God
Kingdom.

"For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit," 1 Peter 3:18

God bless you Brother.

DD

 

[digdeep]

Forgive me for saying this, I mean no disrespect to anyone, but it is both heartening and refreshing to find Adventists such as you who have a clear understanding on salvation and where it comes from. You give me hope for the many Adventists in my family. I honestly could and would become an Adventist again if they could just embrace the salvation that is given as a gift from God. You are spot on with your posts. I wish I had your clarity in writing. I have no problem with going to church on the Sabbath and with most of the other teachings of SDA's.("Unclean" meat prohibition being the main exception, that's just silly) .
God bless! Ricker

Thank-you Ricker. You are so Kind. But I must say I am still learning. Pray for me.

DD

 

[Adventtruth]

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Yes, you are correct AT. Disobedience does negate my salvation. That is why daily repentance is necessary - involving confession of sin, and turning away from it. Do you show faith in Christ when committing a wilfull act of disobedience? Of course not. That is Bible truth.

This is but more of your circular reasoning. Many great men of faith have displayed willful sin and remained saved. Its not about you or your acts of willfull miss behavor Jon. So why make this about you or us? Its about God who has mercy on whom he pleases. We are saved by Gods grace alone through faith...not by my actions. This is when you turn it into merit by your actions of repentence and confession. Don't you know that is still not enough to merit heaven for you? Your confessions still stinks of your fallen humaness which is nothing before God. Its all about Him and what He has done, and not your merit.

AT,

I could quote just as many Scripture stating that the doers of the law shall be justified. I am sure you know of them, so these isolated passages cannot be used in order to make of none-effect our duty to obey.

If you think Romans 2:13 passage is teaching a works righteousness then you don't understand the gospel of God contained in Romans 2. Further more, I have quoted nothing out of context in Gal 5....It says what it says, but you, rather than seeking harmony from Gods word, you contrast the harmony by seeking to make scripture say salvation is by merit. The bible makes no such remarks.

Doesn't Paul say we are slaves to whom we obey? Either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?! That is very much to the contrary of what you are suggesting: obey sin resulting in life regardless.

I am suggesting no such thing. Kindly don't blame your short sightedness on me Jon. What Paul is teaching in Romans 6 is that Justified believers can't follow passions and dictates of the carnal nature once they have been justified. To do so would be following there own heart and a falling from grace.

To follow sin in servitude is to be a servant of sin through a desire for its pleasures for a time. This is an impposiblity for those who have been justified and are no longer in sin but are now holding a position of being in Christ, where his sinfulness and acts of sin are not imputed to him. Its not that a Justified believer does not sin, we know we still sin, but our attitude towards unrightous living has change. We now follow after righteousness through the indwell power of the Holy Spirit who leads all justified persons into righteousness.


AT

 

[capnator]

Yes, obedience is necessary because those who are Saved by Grace obeys. Yet don't take that to mean that obedience helps you to be saved or even keeps you saved. Jesus said "IF YOU LOVE ME, keep my commandments" John 14:15 obedience is the FRUIT of love. obedience is NOT love but the result of love.

"because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." Heb 10:14

The bible is clear. We have ALREADY been made perfect by the doing and dying of Jesus. PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE. And it is to those who are not yet perfect in PRACTICE but are being made holy. There is no seperation of justification and santification. You can't have justification and not be expericencing santification. But it is important to understand that santification is the FRUIT of justification and not the root.

The Gospel tells us what Jesus has done for us. Jesus said "Repent and Believe the Gospel." Repentance and Faith is a response to the Good News of our Salvation in Jesus Christ.

I pray this helps.

DD

Agreed.

We are saved by grace through faith, made perfect at this point We can in no way add to that by what WE do. All our best efforts are filthy rags and we cannot work and tell God "hey you owe it to me now"!

We are saved by faith and Eph 2:10 we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I suppose our works are the evidence of the faith that is in us, by their fruits you shall know them. And these works are accomplished with us working in faith.

Luk 6:46And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

 

[sentipente]

Let us think about the concepts we are discussing. The only condition of salvation is disobedience. If humans had never disobeyed there would never have been a need for salvation. We were then saved and all our discussions now are simply academic. The deed has been done.

 

[ricker]

Let us think about the concepts we are discussing. The only condition of salvation is disobedience. If humans had never disobeyed there would never have been a need for salvation. We were then saved and all our discussions now are simply academic. The deed has been done.

Hey, you make sense for a change! (oops, did I say that out loud?)

 

[sentipente]

Hey, you make sense for a change! (oops, did I say that out loud?)

It's difficult to see with one's eyes closed.

 

[catmommy]

Hi, I'm new and this is my first post so be easy on me. From what I understand, obediance is a result of salvation. Under the Law, obediance was a requirement and disobedience lead to death under the law. When Jesus came and showed us the spirit of God's Law, and died for our sins obedieance became an privelage and desire rather than a requirement. John 14:15 lets us know that keeping the law should be done out of love. I see the difference that occured with me as a grew and matured and the relationship I had with my mom. Before, my mom would fuss and punish in order to make sure dinner was done when she got home from work. I was required (under her law) to make sure dinner was on the table if she had a late night at work. As I grew and moved out of her house (no longer under the law) when I knew she had to work late on a Friday and would be too tired to finish Sabbath preperations. I had no problem fixing dinner and taking it over her house for the Sabbath (out of love). The end result was the same, however the motives are different. Christians should and will keep God's commandments out of love, not obligation.

 

[djconklin]

The only condition of salvation is disobedience.

It would be better to state that the only reason we need salvation is because we have disobeyed--as your next sentence said.

The question then is: what have we disobeyed and how do you know it?

 

[djconklin]

Hi, I'm new and this is my first post so be easy on me. From what I understand, obediance is a result of salvation. Under the Law, obediance was a requirement and disobedience lead to death under the law. When Jesus came and showed us the spirit of God's Law, and died for our sins obedieance became an privelage and desire rather than a requirement. John 14:15 lets us know that keeping the law should be done out of love. I see the difference that occured with me as a grew and matured and the relationship I had with my mom. Before, my mom would fuss and punish in order to make sure dinner was done when she got home from work. I was required (under her law) to make sure dinner was on the table if she had a late night at work. As I grew and moved out of her house (no longer under the law) when I knew she had to work late on a Friday and would be too tired to finish Sabbath preperations. I had no problem fixing dinner and taking it over her house for the Sabbath (out of love). The end result was the same, however the motives are different. Christians should and will keep God's commandments out of love, not obligation.

Welcome to CF and you made a great observation!

 

[sentipente]

It would be better to state that the only reason we need salvation is because we have disobeyed--as your next sentence said.

The question then is: what have we disobeyed and how do you know it?

Please demonstrate between a reason and a condition.

One only knows one has disobeyed because one has been told. The disobedience can be inadvertent, as in our case. We had no intention of disobeying our Lord and Master. In fact, that is the reason why He saved us.

 

[djconklin]

We had no intention of disobeying our Lord and Master.

Where does it say that in the Bible?

 

[sentipente]

Where does it say that in the Bible?

The onus is on you to prove that we did. In the mean time I would point you to the woman's response the moment she recognized that the word of the Creator had been misrepresented. Does this strike you as an individual whose plan is to disobey?

 

[djconklin]

I didn't say that you did and so there is no onus on me.