Is not the “work of faith” a part of the faith?

[Soyeong]

Many try to separate “works” from “faith” and say they are entirely two different things. While it is true that faith can mean a belief. While it is true we do need to be saved by God's grace without the deeds of the Law (or works) by believing, that does not mean faith is simply a belief alone our entire Christian walk. I believe the “work of faith” mentioned by Paul two times is an essential aspect of our faith. Meaning, many will say that we are saved by God's grace through faith, but they do not include the aspect of faith that includes the “work of faith.”

“Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;” (1 Thessalonians 1:3).

“Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faithwith power:” (2 Thessalonians 1:11).

James says,

“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:18).

James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).

This is why we are justified by works as James says (See: James 2:24).
Why? Because the “work of faith” is a part of our “faith.” It's why it is called the “work of faith.”

What we believe is expressed through our actions, which is why every example of faith listed in Hebrews 11 is an example of someone taking an action that expressed their faith.

If I told you to take an action that was for my good, then by doing that you would be earning a wage from me. However, if I told you to do something that was for your own good, then by doing that you would not be earning a wage from me, but rather you would be expressing faith in me to rightly guide you. In the same way, God's law was given for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), so our obedience to it has never been about trying to earn our salvation, but rather it had always been about expressing our faith in God to rightly guide us, and it is by that same faith that be are saved.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What we believe is expressed through our actions, which is why every example of faith listed in Hebrews 11 is an example of someone taking an action that expressed their faith.

If I told you to take an action that was for my good, then by doing that you would be earning a wage from me. However, if I told you to do something that was for your own good, then by doing that you would not be earning a wage from me, but rather you would be expressing faith in me to rightly guide you. In the same way, God's law was given for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), so our obedience to it has never been about trying to earn our salvation, but rather it had always been about expressing our faith in God to rightly guide us, and it is by that same faith that be are saved.

Romans 4:4, and Works of Earning Money vs. Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift.

To him that works his reward is not of grace but it is of debt as if it was some kind of obligation like at a job whereby he works so as to earn money.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him)." (Romans 4:4) (AMPC).​

Works Alone or trading dollars for hours like at a job involving salvation is wrong. Works Alone Salvationism (without God’s grace) is wrong because one has no grace or rest ever. This would purely be a works based system of salvation with no grace or mercy (like with Christ) if one messes up. A person’s good deeds have to outweigh their bad deeds.

But this is not the same thing as "Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift."

I believe God's grace is a free gift as Scripture says (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received, and then we do works of responsibility to take care of those gifts.

Let me give you an example:

If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.

Here is another example:

If Billy-Bob prayed for a wife for many years and he eventually receive a wife from the Lord and consider her as a gift, then that does not mean Billy-Bob can cheat on her and or not love her and expect for her to stay with him. It is the same with God. Disloyalty to GOD means we do not really love GOD and we just love ourselves more than Him. GOD calls us to obedience to His Word. This was the problem that goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden. But men today want to say that we can break God's commands and they will not die. This was the same lie that the enemy was trying to sell Eve on. The serpent told her that she would not die if she ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Which was a violation of God's command).

Anyways, in conclusion: We know that working like at a job (trading dollars for hours) is not the same as doing "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift." Paul is not talking about responsibility in possessing Jesus Christ (Who is our gift). Paul is talking about trying to earn your salvation by a system of "Works Salvationism Alone" that did not include God's grace at all.

So Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-5, Titus 3:5 is dealing with how we are initially and foundationally saved (i.e. the 1st aspect of salvation) and it is not referring to the 2nd aspect of salvation (Sanctification). These three passages are referring to how we are saved first by God's grace and not by Works ALONE Salvationism. But make no mistake about it. After we are saved by God's grace, we have to also bring forth fruits worthy of repentance as John the Baptist says. For John the baptist said that the axe is laid to the root of the tree. Meaning, our repentance (seeking forgiveness with the Lord) must be followed by good actions, otherwise we will be cut down. For the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness (Matthew 25:30). Hebrews 12:14 says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. But men today confuse the issue to justify sin under God’s grace (Which is what Jude 1:4 warns against).

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

Saying that works will follow if you truly have faith is nothing but bunch of crap. It makes no sense. It's impossible to have faith in Jesus if "works must follow". If works must follow, then you're having faith in your works to save you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Saying that works will follow if you truly have faith is nothing but bunch of crap. It makes no sense. It's impossible to have faith in Jesus if "works must follow". If works must follow, then you're having faith in your works to save you.

“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:18).

 

[Albion]

Saying that works will follow if you truly have faith is nothing but bunch of crap. It makes no sense. It's impossible to have faith in Jesus if "works must follow". If works must follow, then you're having faith in your works to save you.

Works don't save you! They are a necessary consequence of Faith--Faith which DOES save you.

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

They are a necessary consequence of Faith--Faith which DOES save you.

See, what you just said shows what you believe. You are effectively saying that works are a requirement for salvation, or at least to qualify you as "saved".

 

[Soyeong]

Romans 4:4, and Works of Earning Money vs. Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift.

To him that works his reward is not of grace but it is of debt as if it was some kind of obligation like at a job whereby he works so as to earn money.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him)." (Romans 4:4) (AMPC).​

Works Alone or trading dollars for hours like at a job involving salvation is wrong. Works Alone Salvationism (without God’s grace) is wrong because one has no grace or rest ever. This would purely be a works based system of salvation with no grace or mercy (like with Christ) if one messes up. A person’s good deeds have to outweigh their bad deeds.

But this is not the same thing as "Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift."

I believe God's grace is a free gift as Scripture says (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received, and then we do works of responsibility to take care of those gifts.

Let me give you an example:

If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.

Here is another example:

If Billy-Bob prayed for a wife for many years and he eventually receive a wife from the Lord and consider her as a gift, then that does not mean Billy-Bob can cheat on her and or not love her and expect for her to stay with him. It is the same with God. Disloyalty to GOD means we do not really love GOD and we just love ourselves more than Him. GOD calls us to obedience to His Word. This was the problem that goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden. But men today want to say that we can break God's commands and they will not die. This was the same lie that the enemy was trying to sell Eve on. The serpent told her that she would not die if she ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Which was a violation of God's command).

Anyways, in conclusion: We know that working like at a job (trading dollars for hours) is not the same as doing "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift." Paul is not talking about responsibility in possessing Jesus Christ (Who is our gift). Paul is talking about trying to earn your salvation by a system of "Works Salvationism Alone" that did not include God's grace at all.

So Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-5, Titus 3:5 is dealing with how we are initially and foundationally saved (i.e. the 1st aspect of salvation) and it is not referring to the 2nd aspect of salvation (Sanctification). These three passages are referring to how we are saved first by God's grace and not by Works ALONE Salvationism. But make no mistake about it. After we are saved by God's grace, we have to also bring forth fruits worthy of repentance as John the Baptist says. For John the baptist said that the axe is laid to the root of the tree. Meaning, our repentance (seeking forgiveness with the Lord) must be followed by good actions, otherwise we will be cut down. For the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness (Matthew 25:30). Hebrews 12:14 says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. But men today confuse the issue to justify sin under God’s grace (Which is what Jude 1:4 warns against).

To use an analogy, I were to hire a professional to train you how to do something, then the training itself would be the content of my free gift, and participating in that training would not be do anything to earn my gift to you, but rather that is what it looks like to receive it, and would be putting your faith in the professional to rightly teaching you how you should act.

In the same way, in Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, in Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly righteous and good and to renonce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously training us to obey Him is itself the content of His free gift of salvation. Participating in that training does nothing to earn it, but rather that is what it looks like to receive it, and to out our faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is what Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God's law looks like.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To use an analogy, I were to hire a professional to train you how to do something, then the training itself would be the content of my free gift, and participating in that training would not be do anything to earn my gift to you, but rather that is what it looks like to receive it, and would be putting your faith in the professional to rightly teaching you how you should act.

In the same way, in Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, in Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly righteous and good and to renonce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously training us to obey Him is itself the content of His free gift of salvation. Participating in that training does nothing to earn it, but rather that is what it looks like to receive it, and to out our faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is what Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God's law looks like.

I believe my analogies or real world examples are more clear on what is the truth.
Maybe I misunderstanding you, but do you believe that a believer can abide in a mortal sin like say adultery, or theft, or murder, etc. and still be saved while doing such sins all because they have a belief alone on Jesus as their Savior? What about the believers who worked iniquity (sin) in Matthew 7:23? What about the unprofitable servant in Matthew 25:30?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

See, what you just said shows what you believe. You are effectively saying that works are a requirement for salvation, or at least to qualify you as "saved".

I am glad you are able to at least see the contradiction in what he is saying. Unfortunately, the problem is that you don't believe the “work of faith” is a part of the “faith.” Why call it a work of faith if it is in no way related to the faith or a part of faith? That is what you fail to understand.

By the way, the apostle Paul brought up the words “work of faith” two times, so folks in your camp cannot use the cop out excuse that such words do not apply to us because they were said by Jesus and or James while they were under the Old Covenant or because they were speaking only to Jewish believers, etc.

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

Unfortunately, the problem is that you don't believe the “work of faith” is a part of the “faith.”

Of course it's not part of faith. Faith means trust. If you have faith in something, it means that you are trusting it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Works don't save you! They are a necessary consequence of Faith--Faith which DOES save you.

If I say “work of love” is it related to love?
If I say “work of the airlines” is it not related to the airline industry?
If I say “work of the devil,” is it not related to the devil?
So if I say “work of faith” how can it not be related to the faith?
Therein lies the contradiction in what you believe.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Of course it's not part of faith. Faith means trust. If you have faith in something, it means that you are trusting it.

See post #31 to see the illogical thinking that you need to get past.

 

[Soyeong]

I believe my analogies or real world examples are more clear on what is the truth.
Maybe I misunderstanding you, but do you believe that a believer can abide in a mortal sin like say adultery, or theft, or murder, etc. and still be saved while doing such sins all because they have a belief alone on Jesus as their Savior? What about the believers who worked iniquity (sin) in Matthew 7:23? What about the unprofitable servant in Matthew 25:30?

I think that Titus 2:11-14 is clearly describing the content of our free gift of salvation, but if you think that it is only describing our responsibility for owning that gift, then what would you say specifically is the content of our free gift of salvation?

In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so God's law is His instructions for how to know Christ, or in other words, how to have a relationship with him. Likewise, in 1 John 2:3, those who say that they know Christ, but don't obey his commands are liars and the truth is not in them, and in 1 John 3:4-6, sin in the transgression of God's law and those who continue to practice sun have neither seen nor known him. In John 6:40, those who look on the Son and believe in him will have eternal life, in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Christ, and in Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that if we want to enter eternal life, then obey the commandments, so obedience to the commandments is what it looks like to believe in Jesus and to know him, so it is contradictory for someone to abide in sin while also believing in Christ.

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

See post #31 to see the illogical thinking that you need to get past.

I'm not saying that works are not related to faith. What I am saying is that works are not part of faith.

 

[Soyeong]

I'm not saying that works are not related to faith. What I am saying is that works are not part of faith.

Why do you think it is that every example of faith listed in Hebrews 11 is an example of someone doing works?

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

Why do you think it is that every example of faith listed in Hebrews 11 is an example of someone doing works?

Where does Hebrews 11 say that works are part of faith? Works are indeed related to faith but that's not the point. Think about it. Roads are related to cars, but does that mean that a road is a part of a car? Drunk people are related to alcohol but does that mean alcohol is made out of drunk people? No, they are different and separate things. It's really not complicated. In fact Romans 4:5 teaches that it's possible to have faith without having any works whatsoever.

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." - Romans 4:5

 

[Soyeong]

Where does Hebrews 11 say that works are part of faith? Works are indeed related to faith but that's not the point. Think about it. Roads are related to cars, but does that mean that a road is a part of a car? Drunk people are related to alcohol but does that mean alcohol is made out of drunk people? No, they are different and separate things. It's really not complicated. In fact Romans 4:5 teaches that it's possible to have faith without having any works whatsoever.

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." - Romans 4:5

You didn't answer my question. While Hebrews 11 does not directly state "works are part of faith", it nevertheless gives a number of examples of faith, all of which are works, so their works are what their faith looked like. Their works are the means by which they expressed their faith, so there is a much deeper connection between faith and works than simply being related. They are more like the side-view and front-view of the same object.

Again, Romans 4:4-5 is specifically speaking against the concept of doing works to earn our justification as though it were a wage that God owes us, however, there are other reasons for doing works other than trying to earn our justification, especially because that was never one of the reasons why God commanded good works in the first place. It does not teach that it is possible to be justified by faith without having works, but that it is possible to be justified by faith without works done for the purpose of earning our justification. There is nothing in Hebrews 11 that even remotely suggests that the people could have just have had faith instead doing all of the works listed in that chapter, but rather the same faith by which they were justified was also expressed as those works, which is why they serve as examples of saving faith.

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

Again, Romans 4:4-5 is specifically speaking against the concept of doing works to earn our justification as though it were a wage that God owes us, however, there are other reasons for doing works other than trying to earn our justification, especially because that was never one of the reasons why God commanded good works in the first place.

Yeah, so why are you against easy-believism and "just believe" for salvation if we don't need to do any works whatsoever to earn our salvation? If you don't need to do any works whatsoever to earn your salvation, then salvation is pretty easy. Then it is "just believe."

I believe in easy-believism, but I also definitely believe that there are other reasons to do works. Works are perfectly compatible with easy-believism.

 

[Soyeong]

Yeah, so why are you against easy-believism and "just believe" for salvation if we don't need to do any works whatsoever to earn our salvation? If you don't need to do any works whatsoever to earn your salvation, then salvation is pretty easy. Then it is "just believe."

I believe in easy-believism, but I also definitely believe that there are other reasons to do works. Works are perfectly compatible with easy-believism.

What we believe is expressed through our actions, which is why all of the examples of saving faith listed in Hebrews 11 are of people taking actions, and why James 2:17-18 says that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works. The belief that we are being saved from living in transgression of God's law is expressed by living in obedience to it, however, if someone claimed to believe that they are being saved from living in transgression of God's law while refusing to live in obedience to it, then their actions would show that their claim was just empty words. Doing good works is what Jesus saving us from not doing good works looks like, so we do need to do good works as an expression of saving faith, but not in order to earn our salvation. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, however, easy-believism wants to be save by just mentally affirming something to be true without involving being trained by grace to do those things.