is my pastor wrong?

[kw1276]

Ok... so I live in a small town and about a year ago we got a new pastor and I was thrilled, we had been without a pastor for a year and he seemed like he was gonna be great he had a doctorate, he had previous pastoral experience and he is even a teacher at a bible college. But the first thing I noticed was he seemed kind of arrogant but I defended him cause I thought he was just trying to be firm and not give anyone a chance to run over him because our church was in need of some authority and discipline but the problem is that there is only three people that he gets on to and he would do it in front of the whole congregation (he doesn't do it as much now). The three people where 3 of the 4whole deacons (myself being one of them) the 4thwhole deacon he hardly says anything to and he is living with a women he is not married to. Out of everyone in the church I can honestly say that we are the most submissive and seem to care the most but he seems to respect us the least. For example he has a habit of saying things like " ok deacon" or "yes deacon" or " deacon do this or that..." deacon in a condescending way or he used to point out honest mistakes we made during service in front everyone and talk to us like we are stupid. He has been preaching on faith and doing bible studies on faith in response to people not giving much to the church but he doesn't say anything about open habitual sin in the church and anytime I even mention in a tactful non-specific way church decipline he says things like "this is a personal thing deacon"or "deacon all have sinned and fallen short" and just this week we got off subject during bible study and he was talking about not judging and I asked him about going to loved ones who say they are christians but seem far from it. I was just saying wouldn't be ok to go to them in love and show them in scripture why you concerned and he acted like I was judgmental and said I was going to them with presumptions and all have sinned and even if they are lost you can't reason anyone into the kingdom so just pray for them. The fact that he feels that way about it bothers me but even if he doesn't agree with me he could be alot more loving when correcting me. And about a month ago we had a guest speaker for our womens day, she was a female pastor that was going to speak to the whole congregation and that day before she got there I asked what he thought about women being pastors and if it was biblical and he said he didn't realize that it was a women until the women of the church had already set it up and it was to late and that was the only reason he was allowing it. But as soon as she got done preaching he stood up in front of the whole congregation and invited her back and 2 weeks later we had another female pastor preach for the church anniversary and after she got through she was trying to do the slain in the spirit stuff (only one person responded) and our pastor got up and was like "praise God praise God ..... I know there are some baptist in here wondering what's going on (laughter)" but that is what we are (baptist). So I asked him about it the following week and he said slain in the spirit was un biblical and as far as the female pastors if not of God it won't. Last and he doesn't want to get in Gods way (cop out answer). My issue is a it as much that he allowed and seemed to condone it (im not thrilled about) but that he says one thing and then turns around and did something else. And one last thing is that when we where without a pastor all the local "white" baptist churches where there for us, inviting us to this and that but now anytime we have events and visiting churches we don't know invite any of the local "white" baptist churches but we invite all these other churches from as much as an hour away from completely different denominations as long as they are "deacon black "deacon churches ( our pastor is black and the church is traditionally been a back church but is now about half white) anyway I don't know what advice I expect.
..... maybe I just needed to vent. Grace & peace

 

[lemon-aid stand]

Ok... so I live in a small town and about a year ago we got a new pastor and I was thrilled, we had been without a pastor for a year and he seemed like he was gonna be great he had a doctorate, he had previous pastoral experience and he is even a teacher at a bible college. But the first thing I noticed was he seemed kind of arrogant but I defended him cause I thought he was just trying to be firm and not give anyone a chance to run over him because our church was in need of some authority and discipline but the problem is that there is only three people that he gets on to and he would do it in front of the whole congregation (he doesn't do it as much now). The three people where 3 of the 4whole deacons (myself being one of them) the 4thwhole deacon he hardly says anything to and he is living with a women he is not married to. Out of everyone in the church I can honestly say that we are the most submissive and seem to care the most but he seems to respect us the least. For example he has a habit of saying things like " ok deacon" or "yes deacon" or " deacon do this or that..." deacon in a condescending way or he used to point out honest mistakes we made during service in front everyone and talk to us like we are stupid. He has been preaching on faith and doing bible studies on faith in response to people not giving much to the church but he doesn't say anything about open habitual sin in the church and anytime I even mention in a tactful non-specific way church decipline he says things like "this is a personal thing deacon"or "deacon all have sinned and fallen short" and just this week we got off subject during bible study and he was talking about not judging and I asked him about going to loved ones who say they are christians but seem far from it. I was just saying wouldn't be ok to go to them in love and show them in scripture why you concerned and he acted like I was judgmental and said I was going to them with presumptions and all have sinned and even if they are lost you can't reason anyone into the kingdom so just pray for them. The fact that he feels that way about it bothers me but even if he doesn't agree with me he could be alot more loving when correcting me. And about a month ago we had a guest speaker for our womens day, she was a female pastor that was going to speak to the whole congregation and that day before she got there I asked what he thought about women being pastors and if it was biblical and he said he didn't realize that it was a women until the women of the church had already set it up and it was to late and that was the only reason he was allowing it. But as soon as she got done preaching he stood up in front of the whole congregation and invited her back and 2 weeks later we had another female pastor preach for the church anniversary and after she got through she was trying to do the slain in the spirit stuff (only one person responded) and our pastor got up and was like "praise God praise God ..... I know there are some baptist in here wondering what's going on (laughter)" but that is what we are (baptist). So I asked him about it the following week and he said slain in the spirit was un biblical and as far as the female pastors if not of God it won't. Last and he doesn't want to get in Gods way (cop out answer). My issue is a it as much that he allowed and seemed to condone it (im not thrilled about) but that he says one thing and then turns around and did something else. And one last thing is that when we where without a pastor all the local "white" baptist churches where there for us, inviting us to this and that but now anytime we have events and visiting churches we don't know invite any of the local "white" baptist churches but we invite all these other churches from as much as an hour away from completely different denominations as long as they are "deacon black "deacon churches ( our pastor is black and the church is traditionally been a back church but is now about half white) anyway I don't know what advice I expect.
..... maybe I just needed to vent. Grace & peace

this is great position that the Lord has blessed you, and the entire congregation with.. this man has all the accolades at the end of his name.. but, he has forgotten that the seal that has been placed on his heart.. the only thing that you can do in this situation. is take a lesson from a young jewish man.. you might know Him.. He was called Jesus.. and He led by example.. it wasn't easy coming up against the pharisees and the way that they would twist the law in their favour.. Jesus set an example of righteousness for all humanity.. He even asked the pharisees which one of them could bring one accusation against Him.. so you see. by trusting in Christ and living your life in His righteousness. you and the congregation will in turn be teaching this wise man the simplicity of a humble spirit.. when he finally gets it.. he might be the next billy graham.. you just never know.. i pray that you have the strength and the insight to trust in the Lord through this and in doing so, bring about His glory sister.. God's blessing on your little community.. dale

 

[BFine]

Addressing the issue of a deacon living with a woman who isn't his wife
should be of importance as well.

Sounds like a lot of internal issues aren't being addressed...are other members of the church concerned about the "issues" you have raised in your post here?

How has the church dealt with internal problems in the past?

 

[kw1276]

No most of the members are not concerned about the deacon living with the women maybe it is because him and her have been together for about 20yrs or maybe because he is related to about 90%a of the church but either way the church and the pastor seem more concerned about doing work im the church and having faith to give financially than anything else. But in all fairness I didn't mention that the pastor did speak privately with the deacon a few times but instead of repenting the deacon told the pastor he just wanted to be on the usher board and that was that... so now its like don't mention that or any other similar situations, not even when asking a hypothetical question or you judging and since no one is without sin you can't say anything.
And just so no one misunderstands im not unloving or a head hunter or anything but I just look at it as more loving to go to my brother in love than to act like there nothing to be concerned about.
Oh and by the way im a male.lol

 

[paul1149]

Very serious stuff. I see several options:

• make a Mt. 18 issue out of it (and you are on solid biblical grounds),
• be still and wait for the Lord to do something (there may be a legitimate season for this, but it's not a sustainable longterm strategy. Many examples in the NT have the apostles facing such problems directly.)
• go with the flow and get dragged down by it, becoming a part of the problem.
• or walk.

I hope you get the wisdom you need.

 

[Autumnleaf]

If him and the woman have been together for 20 years then what is the problem? They are married according to the law of the land and for all we know they are married in God's eyes too. Why don't you mind your own business?

 

[kw1276]

There is no common law marriage in the state I live in and even if you could make that argument where do we draw the line about shacking up... its the principal... if we turn our heads about this what's next?... its a slippery slope

 

[beautygal123]

If him and the woman have been together for 20 years then what is the problem? They are married according to the law of the land and for all we know they are married in God's eyes too. Why don't you mind your own business?

So where do we draw the line? Four years is wrong, but five is acceptable? Who are we to say that is OKAY?

We hold a marriage ceremony in a church to commit a man and a woman to each other in God's eyes, followed by a legal marriage in the eyes of the law. If we say that it's okay for them to live together for 20 years without marriage, that opens the flood gates for anyone to shack up and say, "but we'll be together forever! So it's OKAY!"

It's a black and white issue to me. We all sin, but constant sinning without repenting? I don't think so.

 

[Disciple09]

If him and the woman have been together for 20 years then what is the problem? They are married according to the law of the land and for all we know they are married in God's eyes too. Why don't you mind your own business?

They are NOT marride in God's eyes. Living together outside of marriage is a sin, just like sleeping together before marriage. It all falls under fornication and God strictly says NO fornicators will inherit Heaven. Issues like this must be addressed within the church, if not then they are ushering in evil spirits through this one decision.

 

[Disciple09]

kw and beautygal...You guys are right, the issue needs to be addressed. When such issues are ignored are swept under the rug it invites evile spirits into the church. A church can be "sterile", unfruitful and feel weird due to one person who is not right with God but claims to be. It can have an effect on an entire congregation. It is a spirit of religion, and God HATES religion! He wants a relationship, one that is only gained through repentance, humility, prayer and servitude. Often times these "issues" can be absorbed within a bigger congregation, but smaller congregations can be ripped to shreds by it. I've been there. My church has gone through 2 major splits because of people who caused division within the church due to the way they were living outside of church. It's treading dangerous waters when you dont live as God calls, but yet call yourself a Christian.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I have two thoughts.

1) What do you think marriage looked like during Jesus time? Did you go down to the Courthouse and buy a marriage license? Were you married by the High Priest? Or was it an informal mutual promise after your dowry was paid? I do not know the answer to this question, but I rather doubt that marriage 2,000 years ago looked anything like marriage in 2011.

2) With all due respect to the OP, the paragraph is your friend. Your post is extremely hard for me to read.

 

[kw1276]

I appreciate the responses to the issue of the deacon and the woman it has been very encouraging , thank you.
I would also like to hear your thoughts about going to your loved ones who seem to show no evidence of true salvation with scripture and showing them in love why your concerned about them (as I type this, the answer seems so obvious, but he acted like it was out of the question)

 

[kw1276]

Yeah, I agree its a little difficult to read sorry.lol
but I disagree about the marriage issue, when Mary became pregnant Joesph was going to divorce her and they where only engaged. So I would say they took it alot more serious than we do today

 

[beautygal123]

I have two thoughts.

1) What do you think marriage looked like during Jesus time? Did you go down to the Courthouse and buy a marriage license? Were you married by the High Priest? Or was it an informal mutual promise after your dowry was paid? I do not know the answer to this question, but I rather doubt that marriage 2,000 years ago looked anything like marriage in 2011.

2) With all due respect to the OP, the paragraph is your friend. Your post is extremely hard for me to read.

We aren't talking about what marriage looked like in those times. We live in the here and the now, and I don't know absolutely any Christian church that would approve of living together outside of marriage so blatantly for 20 years - and being the one who preaches to others about it, nonetheless.

In regards to your other issue OP, my Dad is what I would consider extremely in denial about his faith. He would claim to be Athiest, but I think he just hates God for the hands he's been dealt. You cannot force anyone to believe, just as anyone cannot force you to abandon the Lord. All you can do is be open to having conversations about Jesus with them if they ask, and pray for God to put it into their hearts.

I love my Dad, and I pray that God will give me patience with him, because he drives me nuts!

 

[kw1276]

We aren't talking about what marriage looked like in those times. We live in the here and the now, and I don't know absolutely any Christian church that would approve of living together outside of marriage so blatantly for 20 years - and being the one who preaches to others about it, nonetheless.

In regards to your other issue OP, my Dad is what I would consider extremely in denial about his faith. He would claim to be Athiest, but I think he just hates God for the hands he's been dealt. You cannot force anyone to believe, just as anyone cannot force you to abandon the Lord. All you can do is be open to having conversations about Jesus with them if they ask, and pray for God to put it into their hearts.

I love my Dad, and I pray that God will give me patience with him, because he drives me nuts!

Well my parents don't consider themselves atheists, they consider themselves christians but they are both alcoholics, they live together but are not married, my mother is actually still married to my stepdad, and they dont go to church. I am aware that these things don't make someone saved or not saved, but I do believe it gives legitimate reason for concern . So I would just like to go to them with scripture and encourage them to examine themselves in light of scripture

 

[beautygal123]

Well my parents don't consider themselves atheists, they consider themselves christians but they are both alcoholics, they live together but are not married, my mother is actually still married to my stepdad, and they dont go to church. I am aware that these things don't make someone saved or not saved, but I do believe it gives legitimate reason for concern . So I would just like to go to them with scripture and encourage them to examine themselves in light of scripture

Being the child of an addict and one myself, I can tell you that there is no way on this God-given Earth that you showing them a piece of scripture will get them sober. The only time they can stop drinking is when they decide it's time. It's worse when there's two of them, because they feed each other's addictions. Living in sin is the least of their problems. I had to hit rock bottom to get sober, and I know that falling backwards into that hole is always just a step away, EVEN with God beside me.

I could go on for hours. It might be better for us to PM about it.

 

[kw1276]

Being the child of an addict and one myself, I can tell you that there is no way on this God-given Earth that you showing them a piece of scripture will get them sober. The only time they can stop drinking is when they decide it's time. It's worse when there's two of them, because they feed each other's addictions. Living in sin is the least of their problems. I had to hit rock bottom to get sober, and I know that falling backwards into that hole is always just a step away, EVEN with God beside me.

I could go on for hours. It might be better for us to PM about it.

I agree that living together is the least of there problems, but so is alcohol. Those things are just symptoms of the true problem, and that I fear is a lack of true salvation. I doubt that showing a few verses about drunkenness would cause them to quit drinking, but like I said , that would be just trying to fix the symptom and not the cause. And the cause can only be cured by the word of God "faith comes by hearing". So wouldn't it be best to do that?

 

[beautygal123]

I agree that living together is the least of there problems, but so is alcohol. Those things are just symptoms of the true problem, and that I fear is a lack of true salvation. I doubt that showing a few verses about drunkenness would cause them to quit drinking, but like I said , that would be just trying to fix the symptom and not the cause. And the cause can only be cured by the word of God "faith comes by hearing". So wouldn't it be best to do that?

I'd actually disagree on their alcoholism being a sympton of their lack of the Lord. And alcohol is actually their worst problem right now. I don't know any addict who is 100% living for God.

Some people's brains are hardwired for addiction. They tend to pass it on to their kids too. But it doesn't mean they HAVE to be addicted. There's no such thing as a recovered addict. You're an addict for the rest of your life. You just aren't doing the drugs/drinking the alcohol/doing whatever it is you were addicted to. It's called being a dry alcoholic.

I would argue that their drinking has pulled them away from God. The devil has tempted them, and they gave in. But that said, it honestly depends on how severe their addiction is. They made need an out-patient rehab program, AA, full-time hospital rehab or maybe just a doctor's supervision.

Honestly, this issue is so deep that they'll need professional help, no matter how many scriptures you show them. I'm not saying you shouldn't tell them about Jesus. I'm just saying don't expect miracles without acceptance on their part and desire for help.

Pray about it. God will lead you in the right direction.

 

[kw1276]

Your right, that was not the way I should have put it, and they did pass it on to me. I drank everyday till I came to christ and then struggled with for awhile afterwards. I guess what I meant was not that .... well there addicted to alcohol so they must not be saved... I just meant that the drinking was not really my point. I can understand that there are probably alot of christians out there who struggle with alcoholism. I was just using that as an example. but I was just trying to say that, although I can't read there mind or there hearts, when you know someone your entire life you generally have a good idea of where they are at spiritually. And they don't seem to struggle with any sin because it doesn't appear to really bother them , and that's what concerned about. And if they are truly lost than that is a much bigger problem than drinking . They could get professional help and quit drinking and still possibly be lost.
Im not making light of alcoholism, but even if that wasn't an issue I don't see any indication of them being born again. I believe they are exactly the way I was.... I always believed in God and accepted Jesus in my mind but it made no connection to my heart... but because I believed I thought I could do whatever I wanted and still go to heaven

 

[beautygal123]

Of course they could still be lost spiritually while sober. My own Dad is. I have been. I just know that they can't be spiritually right whilst drinking like that, either. What's worse? The latter.

Are they falling down wasted every day? Is their physical health in grave danger? That's what I need answered.