LDS Is Moroni a fallen demonic angel?

[rockytopva]

Whenever angelic announcements were made here on earth Gabriel was most often the angel of choice. In Islam Gabriel is the Angel who relayed the Qur'an to Muhammad from God. So, if such doctrine is true, at least it came from Gabriel, an angel known to give such tidings.

But who is this Moroni? No such name as Moroni in scripture. According to Latter Day Saint belief, the golden plates are the source from which Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon, a sacred text of the faith. Some witnesses described the plates as weighing 50 pounds, golden in color, and being composed of thin metallic pages engraved on both sides and bound with three D-shaped rings.

Smith said he found the plates at a hill near his home in Manchester, New York, after the angel Moroni directed him to a buried stone box. Smith said the angel prevented him from taking the plates, but instructed him to return to the same location. Though he allowed others to heft the box, he said that the angel had forbidden him to show the plates to anyone until they had been translated from their original "reformed Egyptian" language. Smith dictated the text of the Book of Mormon, claiming that it was a translation of the plates. He did this by using a seer stone, which he placed in the bottom of a hat and then placed the hat over his face to view the words written within the stone. Smith published the translation in 1830 as the Book of Mormon (bits and pieced from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_plates) .

If these plates were in Manchestor NY, I would think that someone would have found them by now.

So this so called book of Mormon was translated from the original "reformed Egyptian" language, which much of the text looks like it was copied from the KJV of the bible. And I would imagine such revelation coming from the Jew, or at least a son of Shem, as the scripture says...

1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. - Romans 3:1-3

The Apostle Paul had trouble with people manipulating the scripture in error. At one time he declared...

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. - Galatians 1

And the Apostle Peter, taking up with Paul, said that...

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. - 2 Peter 3

I personally believe that the Book of Mormon is, as the Apostle Peter says, a product of the unlearned and unstable, which they wrest, as they do with other scriptures, unto their own destruction. And I personally believe that the angel Moroni is, as the Apostle Paul said, an accursed angel as he brought another gospel which was not handed down through the Apostles.

 

[fatboys]

Whenever angelic announcements were made here on earth Gabriel was most often the angel of choice. In Islam Gabriel is the Angel who relayed the Qur'an to Muhammad from God. So, if such doctrine is true, at least it came from Gabriel, an angel known to give such tidings.

But who is this Moroni? No such name as Moroni in scripture. According to Latter Day Saint belief, the golden plates are the source from which Joseph Smith said he translated the Book of Mormon, a sacred text of the faith. Some witnesses described the plates as weighing about 50 pounds, golden in color, and being composed of thin metallic pages engraved on both sides and bound with three D-shaped rings.

Smith said he found the plates at a hill near his home in Manchester, New York, after the angel Moroni directed him to a buried stone box. Smith said the angel at first prevented him from taking the plates, but instructed him to return to the same location in a year. Though he allowed others to heft the box, he said that the angel had forbidden him to show the plates to anyone until they had been translated from their original "reformed Egyptian" language. Smith dictated the text of the Book of Mormon over the next several years, claiming that it was a translation of the plates. He did this by using a seer stone, which he placed in the bottom of a hat and then placed the hat over his face to view the words written within the stone. Smith published the translation in 1830 as the Book of Mormon.

If these plates were in Manchestor NY, I would think that someone would have found them by now.

So this so called book of Mormon was translated from the original "reformed Egyptian" language, which much of the text looks like it was copied from the KJV of the bible. And I would imagine such revelation coming from the Jew, or at least a son of Shem, as the scripture says...

1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. - Romans 3:1-3

The Apostle Paul had trouble with people manipulating the scripture in error. At one time he declared...

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. - Galatians 1

And the Apostle Peter, taking up with Paul, said that...

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. - 2 Peter 3

I personally believe that the Book of Mormon is, as the Apostle Peter says, a product of the unlearned and unstable, which they wrest, as they do with other scriptures, unto their own destruction. And I personally believe that the angel Moroni is, as the Apostle Paul said, an accursed angel as he brought another gospel which was not handed down through the Apostles.

You have some of the history correct but most is wrong

 

[Ironhold]

I always hear people talk about Galatians, but never hear anyone explain the fact that Revelation talks about an angel carrying the gospel.

 

[rockytopva]

If Joseph Smith would have uncovered some manuscript that was written from a Christian source I may have believed it. The Apostle Mark is said to have went to Egypt. Now if they had a Christian entourage that migrated from Africa to the America's and had brought the Apostle Mark's writings with them it would be more believable. But give me a book referring to all these non-historical and non-biblical names is something that is just plain silly.

But... Even if Joseph Smith could have come up with a book written by some other Apostle... Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles...Hand picked by the Lord Jesus Christ. And the other Apostles had little to say, except to write about and promote the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[AvilaSurfer]

If I were an angel of God, I think I'd pick a name that didn't start with moron.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Whenever angelic announcements were made here on earth Gabriel was most often the angel of choice. In Islam Gabriel is the Angel who relayed the Qur'an to Muhammad from God. So, if such doctrine is true, at least it came from Gabriel, an angel known to give such tidings.

But who is this Moroni? No such name as Moroni in scripture. According to Latter Day Saint belief, the golden plates are the source from which Joseph Smith said he translated the Book of Mormon, a sacred text of the faith. Some witnesses described the plates as weighing about 50 pounds, golden in color, and being composed of thin metallic pages engraved on both sides and bound with three D-shaped rings.

Smith said he found the plates at a hill near his home in Manchester, New York, after the angel Moroni directed him to a buried stone box. Smith said the angel at first prevented him from taking the plates, but instructed him to return to the same location in a year. Though he allowed others to heft the box, he said that the angel had forbidden him to show the plates to anyone until they had been translated from their original "reformed Egyptian" language. Smith dictated the text of the Book of Mormon over the next several years, claiming that it was a translation of the plates. He did this by using a seer stone, which he placed in the bottom of a hat and then placed the hat over his face to view the words written within the stone. Smith published the translation in 1830 as the Book of Mormon.

If these plates were in Manchestor NY, I would think that someone would have found them by now.

So this so called book of Mormon was translated from the original "reformed Egyptian" language, which much of the text looks like it was copied from the KJV of the bible. And I would imagine such revelation coming from the Jew, or at least a son of Shem, as the scripture says...

1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. - Romans 3:1-3

The Apostle Paul had trouble with people manipulating the scripture in error. At one time he declared...

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. - Galatians 1

And the Apostle Peter, taking up with Paul, said that...

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. - 2 Peter 3

I personally believe that the Book of Mormon is, as the Apostle Peter says, a product of the unlearned and unstable, which they wrest, as they do with other scriptures, unto their own destruction. And I personally believe that the angel Moroni is, as the Apostle Paul said, an accursed angel as he brought another gospel which was not handed down through the Apostles.

FYI: this post is a theft-- stealing of someone else's words without giving them credit. And if you're going to steal, you really should from somewhere more reputable than wikipedia.

 

[Ironhold]

If it's plagiarism, then report him. It puts both him *and* CF at risk of legal action.

 

[mmksparbud]

Interesting to note---no manuscripts have been recorded as being given to anyone from an angel. When God wanted someone to know something, He told them--dreams, visions, or, as with Moses, face to face. There has been only one document given to man from God, written by His own hand, and written on stone. Even God didn't use golden plates. And no one had to decipher what was being given them with a stone in a hat. If the interpretation of a dream was needed, again, God revealed the interpretation to someone in a dream or vision or just told them--as with Daniel and with Paul and John. Angels did appear to men, recorded many times in the bible, they never gave manuscripts of any kind, they spoke their message. And, as has been pointed out many times, when a prophet received a message from God or from an angel, the prophet would write it down in the language and manner of speaking for the time and culture.
Books written around 1830----
The little Mermaid, Hans Christian Anderson
Oliver Twist---Charles Dickens
The Hunchback of Notre-Dam--Victor Hugo
The Fall of the House of Usher---Edgar Allan Poe
The Red and the Black--Stendhal
Just a few----none of which are written in biblical sounding English.

I always hear people talk about Galatians, but never hear anyone explain the fact that Revelation talks about an angel carrying the gospel.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:


John was not given a manuscript written in a language he had to decipher with a stone in a hat--or any other way.

 

[rockytopva]

And the Book of Revelation came from the Apostle John himself... That is enough to authenticate the book.

 

[mmksparbud]

FYI: this post is a theft-- stealing of someone else's words without giving them credit. And if you're going to steal, you really should from somewhere more reputable than wikipedia.

Then you should at least prove it with quotes from the plagiarized source or you could be sued for slander!
Book of Mormon
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Book of Mormon is a sacred text of the Latter Day Saint movement, which adherents believe contains writings of ancient prophets who lived on the American continent from approximately 2200 BC to AD 421.[1][2] It was first published in March 1830 by Joseph Smith as The Book of Mormon: An Account Written by the Hand of Mormon upon Plates Taken from the Plates of Nephi.[3]

According to Smith's account and the book's narrative, the Book of Mormon was originally written in otherwise unknown characters referred to as "reformed Egyptian"[4] engraved on golden plates. Smith said that the last prophet to contribute to the book, a man named Moroni, buried it in a hill in present-day New York, then returned to earth in 1827 as an angel,[5] revealing the location of the book to Smith, and instructing him to translate it into English for use in the restoration of Christ's true church in the latter days. Critics claim that it was fabricated by Smith, drawing on material and ideas from contemporary 19th-century works rather than translating an ancient record.[6][7][8]

The Book of Mormon has a number of original and distinctive doctrinal discussions on subjects such as the fall of Adam and Eve,[9] the nature of the Atonement,[10] eschatology, redemption from physical and spiritual death,[11] and the organization of the latter-day church. The pivotal event of the book is an appearance of Jesus Christ in the Americas shortly after his resurrection.

The Book of Mormon is the earliest of the unique writings of the Latter Day Saint movement, the denominations of which typically regard the text primarily as scripture, and secondarily as a historical record of God's dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas.[12] The Book of Mormon is divided into smaller books, titled after the individuals named as primary authors and, in most versions, divided into chapters and verses. It is written in English very similar to the Early Modern English linguistic style of the King James Version of the Bible, and has since been fully or partially translated into 108 languages.[13] As of 2011, more than 150 million copies of the Book of Mormon have been published.[14]

 

[rockytopva]

I have read into history and I find no historical authentication for the book of Mormon.

For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. - 1 Corinthians 2:2
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. - 2 Corinthians 11:3

My salvation is based on the simple faith in Christ Jesus and no far out teaching from ancient America that has no historical backing, except for some KJV copied texts from Isaiah. Speaking of suing people, maybe the KJV folk ought to sue the Mormons for copying and pasting so much text from the King James into the Book of Mormon.

 

[rockytopva]

Let us build a picture. Let us say that mariners found the lost city of Atlantis. And in that lost city were manuscripts detailing the history of the city. if the manuscripts referred to a thriving Christian/Jewish settlement that became advanced beyond measure that would be worth looking into. I would want to read into the work and the architecture of the city before coming to some belief on what actually happened.

I have read and enjoyed the complete library of John Bunyan, who with some of his works came dreams and vision. As these dreams and visions line up with scripture I have no problem reading and enjoying such material. But with the Book of Mormon I am forced to believe Joseph Smith, with no evidence of truth in his writings, except for what he has copied and pasted out of the KJV of the bible. I would therefore come to the conclusion that this is an evil work.

As far as the angel Raphael, it has a Hebrew name that refers to God (El) and therefore it is a believable angel for God. There is nothing Hebrew with Mormon and Moroni.

 

[Ironhold]

I have read into history and I find no historical authentication for the book of Mormon.

What sort of sources did you look into?

You made the claim, now please back it up.

 

[rockytopva]

In 1955, Thomas Ferguson, a Latter Day Saint and the founder of the New World Archaeological Foundation (NWAF), with five years of funding from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), began to dig throughout Mesoamerica for evidence of the veracity of the Book of Mormon claims. In a 1961 newsletter, Ferguson predicted that although nothing had been found, the Book of Mormon cities would be found within ten years. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_authenticity_of_the_Book_of_Mormon

 

[rockytopva]

I believe that the churches are seven as outlined in Revelation...

Ephesus - Messianic - As began by the Apostle Peter
Smyrna - Early Gentile Church - As begun by the Apostle Paul
Pergamos - Orthodox... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholic - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate. I do not believe the Spirit of Jezebel is in this church, but she troubled this church in her time. And thus began the tremors of reformation against it.
Sardis - Protestant - A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic- Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

So seven congregations completes the church of Jesus Christ. I have no problem with CF and the seven congregations representing her. We all have our issues. But we have all acknowledged the Christ and thus, if we forgive men our trespasses towards us, so the Heavenly Father will forgive our trespasses against him.

The problem I would have with the Mormon faith is finding where to fit it within the congregations of the church. If this is indeed a Christian congregation it would either fit within the Messianic or Laodicean bunch. But I would need more evidence of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon before accepting this as a Christian congregation.

 

[Armoured]

Occam's razor suggest ol' J. Smith didn't require a demonic fallen angel to "discover" the book of Mormon. No disrespect to our sincere Mormon friends here, but personally, I suspect either charlatanism or mental illness make a more credible explanation, in my opinion.

A couple of photos of laboratory analysed golden plates and seer stones would shut my mouth right up.

 

[rockytopva]

The Scientific Method...

1. Make an observation
2. Ask a question
3. Make a hypothesis
4. Conduct an experiment
5. Draw conclusions
6. Report your results

If I were to believe the book of Mormon I would want to see the plates and visit the places of reference. I would also be interested in experimenting around the places of interest to see if I could find anything else interesting about the people and the time. After years of research I would want time to meditate and draw conclusions. Then I would prepare a paper reporting my findings, make a thread in the outreach section of CF and measure the response.

 

[fatboys]

The Scientific Method...

1. Make an observation
2. Ask a question
3. Make a hypothesis
4. Conduct an experiment
5. Draw conclusions
6. Report your results

If I were to believe the book of Mormon I would want to see the plates and visit the places of reference. I would also be interested in experimenting around the places of interest to see if I could find anything else interesting about the people and the time. After years of research I would want time to meditate and draw conclusions. Then I would prepare a paper reporting my findings, make a thread in the outreach section of CF and measure the response.

Do the same proofs apply to the ancient prophets as well.

 

[mmksparbud]

The subject was the book, not Joseph himself. Cities and cultures, not individuals.
Prophets need to meet other requirements that the bible mentions, but that is not what was being talked about right now. Though the topic is Moroni--an angel.

You have some of the history correct but most is wrong

It would be far more helpful if you would list the errors and correct them, with the proof for the corrections.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I always hear people talk about Galatians, but never hear anyone explain the fact that Revelation talks about an angel carrying the gospel.

And what is the gospel? Do you understand what the gospel is?