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Is morality objective or subjective?

Wiccan_Child

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Is morality objective or subjective? By that I mean, are some actions intrinsically 'good' or 'evil' , or are 'good' and 'evil' labels that we humans ascribe to them*?

*Akin to how an object's length is an objective and inherent property.
**Akin to how 'hot' and 'cold' are subjective labels that have no real physical distinction.

EDIT: Bugger, I wanted a poll, but that seems to have gone head over foot. Nevermind.
 

quatona

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Is morality objective or subjective? By that I mean, are some actions intrinsically 'good' or 'evil' , or are 'good' and 'evil' labels that we humans ascribe to them*?
The latter.

*Akin to how an object's length is an objective and inherent property.
**Akin to how 'hot' and 'cold' are subjective labels that have no real physical distinction.
I´m not a scientist, but I was under the impression that temperature wasn´t any less objectively measurable than length. I maybe wrong, though.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I´m not a scientist, but I was under the impression that temperature wasn´t any less objectively measurable than length. I maybe wrong, though.
Temperature's objective, sure, but the designations 'hot' and 'cold' aren't. At what temperature does something go from 'hot' to 'cold'? ;)

EDIT: Temperature isn't as robust as I made out. But let's not go off-topic just yet...
 
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Zebra1552

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Is morality objective or subjective? By that I mean, are some actions intrinsically 'good' or 'evil' , or are 'good' and 'evil' labels that we humans ascribe to them*?

*Akin to how an object's length is an objective and inherent property.
**Akin to how 'hot' and 'cold' are subjective labels that have no real physical distinction.

EDIT: Bugger, I wanted a poll, but that seems to have gone head over foot. Nevermind.
I think you know my answer, WC. So... let's dispense with the claims and get to the why. Actions are not objectively good or bad, it is principles that are objectively good or bad because of what God has commanded in the Bible.
 
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I think you know my answer, WC. So... let's dispense with the claims and get to the why. Actions are not objectively good or bad, it is principles that are objectively good or bad because of what God has commanded in the Bible.

So the principle of not killing other people or stealing their things is only good because God says so in the Bible?

What about all the things that aren't mentioned in the Bible?
 
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Zebra1552

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So the principle of not killing other people or stealing their things is only good because God says so in the Bible?

What about all the things that aren't mentioned in the Bible?
'not killing other people or stealing their things' is not a principle, those are commands... And what about the principles not mentioned in the Bible? Did you have a specific one in mind?
 
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'not killing other people or stealing their things' is not a principle, those are commands... And what about the principles not mentioned in the Bible? Did you have a specific one in mind?

You are going to have to explain to me what you believe the principles that back these commands are for me to better understand what you are trying to say - is the principle not "one ought not kill people" or "one ought not steal"? If not, what is it?

The commands only exist because of the principle - they are all logically constructed as "this is the principle therefore don't do other than the principle because it is the principle".

As for principles not mentioned in the Bible... well, I do need you to clarify what you mean by a principle for me to properly answer that, but I'm thinking along the lines of things to do with scientific advancement (eg. genetic modification, cloning) as one sphere were there is limited Biblical guidance. I'd be able to give you a better answer if you can specify to me what you are getting at, though.
 
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Verv

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It is objective.

You will find that many of the lessons in Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism and other world religions often come back to the idea that the most righteous people are the people who are kind, forgiving, pleasant, respectful and peaceful.

The universal morality we ought to recognize:
- Don't fight, don't disrespect others, don't be haughty, don't be hotheaded or overly judgmental.

To be a good person treat everyone as your neighbor and love them, and nurture them each chance you get and build them up.
 
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Zebra1552

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You are going to have to explain to me what you believe the principles that back these commands are for me to better understand what you are trying to say - is the principle not "one ought not kill people" or "one ought not steal"?
It's not, as I just stated... I hope that question was rhetorical.
If not, what is it?
Basically, to reflect the love God shows us to everyone.
The commands only exist because of the principle - they are all logically constructed as "this is the principle therefore don't do other than the principle because it is the principle".
Well, yeah.

As for principles not mentioned in the Bible... well, I do need you to clarify what you mean by a principle for me to properly answer that, but I'm thinking along the lines of things to do with scientific advancement (eg. genetic modification, cloning) as one sphere were there is limited Biblical guidance. I'd be able to give you a better answer if you can specify to me what you are getting at, though.
I hope you're not talking about human cloning. And by genetic modification, I hope you don't mean playing God. Other than that, I see nothing wrong with either. But before you get all hot about the playing God argument I'm using, you'd best figure out what I mean first, because I very much doubt that it's mainstream.
 
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It is objective.

You will find that many of the lessons in Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism and other world religions often come back to the idea that the most righteous people are the people who are kind, forgiving, pleasant, respectful and peaceful.

The universal morality we ought to recognize:
- Don't fight, don't disrespect others, don't be haughty, don't be hotheaded or overly judgmental.

To be a good person treat everyone as your neighbor and love them, and nurture them each chance you get and build them up.

So your reasoning is that that is because a number of world religions have certain similarities morality is objective?
 
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Verv

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So your reasoning is that that is because a number of world religions have certain similarities morality is objective?

Let's not even say religions. Let's say cultures.

Many Native American religions and cultures have similar pearls of wisdom.

If you go to any society in the world and endeavor to behave respectfully, with caring and kindness, with an open mind and an open heart and the desire to help where help is wanted, you will probably be welcomed barring the notion that there is prejudice or hatred against your ethnicity or creed...

(and even then, the love and kindness shown can melt as much; as the years passed away love and hope triumphed with the election of a black man to a Presidency who 60 years ago would not be allowed to even drink from the same water fountain as a white in some parts fo the nation he now rules.

I don't like his politics but I admire his kindness and good words, and he is nwo a symbol of a great American dream coming true).

The objective morality we see is that the human being is wired to like these inherently good things.
 
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Let's not even say religions. Let's say cultures.

Many Native American religions and cultures have similar pearls of wisdom.

If you go to any society in the world and endeavor to behave respectfully, with caring and kindness, with an open mind and an open heart and the desire to help where help is wanted, you will probably be welcomed barring the notion that there is prejudice or hatred against your ethnicity or creed...

(and even then, the love and kindness shown can melt as much; as the years passed away love and hope triumphed with the election of a black man to a Presidency who 60 years ago would not be allowed to even drink from the same water fountain as a white in some parts fo the nation he now rules.

I don't like his politics but I admire his kindness and good words, and he is nwo a symbol of a great American dream coming true).

The objective morality we see is that the human being is wired to like these inherently good things.

I really think that this is a thoroughly bogus line of reasoning.

For starters, you make a fairly major assumption to state that because similar concepts are considered "good" or "moral" in different cultural circumstances, they must therefore be objectively good and moral. Are there not other possible explanations here?

Your sentence about human beings being "wired" to do things (I'm assuming this is reference to some form of instinct, yes?) brings up more problems. Human beings are animals. We have survival instincts. Are these instincts necessarily moral? I'm going to suggest to you that they aren't necessarily so - not to say that they are necessarily immoral, rather that our individual instincts are amoral.

Is it possible that, given our instincts are in fact amoral, independently different groups of people formed societies which require certain behaviours from the individuals in order to function, and in responding to this relationship between the instinctual and basic needs of the individual and the needs of the society, people intersubjectively construct their own set of beliefs, called morality, in order to balance the needs of both?

Different societies will therefore generally develop moralities that are in equal parts the same and different to other societies to the extent to which those other societies are the same and different - there is no objective morality because morality only exists in societies, and societies are created by the intersubjective interaction of individuals.

You can list a whole bunch of similarities in the morality of different groups, but you can also list a whole bunch of differences. I would identify the cause of both the similarities and the differences in the fact that amoral individuals have found it necessary to interact with others and that in order to make this interaction work they have had to deal with many similar problems and have therefore found fairly similar solutions.

Religion is a good example of this - there are many answers that escape us as human beings, questions like "how was everything created?", for example. Basically all religions have an answer to that question - a creation myth - some god/gods did something to create the world. The reason why is not because it is objectively true that human kind was created by god/gods, but because the same answer has been asked by different people which provokes a similar response (something more powerful than us did it).

In the end all you get is that similar situations give similar responses (be it in morality, religion, societal rules and norms, etc.). I don't see how that is proof that there is an objectively true response to the situations.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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It is objective.

You will find that many of the lessons in Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism and other world religions often come back to the idea that the most righteous people are the people who are kind, forgiving, pleasant, respectful and peaceful.

The universal morality we ought to recognize:
- Don't fight, don't disrespect others, don't be haughty, don't be hotheaded or overly judgmental.

To be a good person treat everyone as your neighbor and love them, and nurture them each chance you get and build them up.
How do you know this is the universal morality we ought to recognise?
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I think you know my answer, WC. So... let's dispense with the claims and get to the why. Actions are not objectively good or bad, it is principles that are objectively good or bad because of what God has commanded in the Bible.
That seems rather subjective to me.
 
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quatona

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It is objective.

You will find that many of the lessons in Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism and other world religions often come back to the idea that the most righteous people are the people who are kind, forgiving, pleasant, respectful and peaceful.

The universal morality we ought to recognize:
- Don't fight, don't disrespect others, don't be haughty, don't be hotheaded or overly judgmental.

1. For such moral stances that are "universal" them metamoral postulation that they "ought to" be recognized is redundant.
2. Even if every single moral issue would be universally agreed upon that still wouldn´t render morality objective.
 
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Blackmarch

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Is morality objective or subjective? By that I mean, are some actions intrinsically 'good' or 'evil' , or are 'good' and 'evil' labels that we humans ascribe to them*?

*Akin to how an object's length is an objective and inherent property.
**Akin to how 'hot' and 'cold' are subjective labels that have no real physical distinction.

EDIT: Bugger, I wanted a poll, but that seems to have gone head over foot. Nevermind.
some are one some are the other.

Whether morality is or isn't subjective, if the route taken is that morality is subjective, is a very frightening one- ultimately nothing is inherently right or inherently wrong, and whoever can get others to abide their beliefs, would be "correct"... whether thru manipulation, charisma, or sheer force.
 
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Zaac

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Is morality objective or subjective? By that I mean, are some actions intrinsically 'good' or 'evil' , or are 'good' and 'evil' labels that we humans ascribe to them*?

*Akin to how an object's length is an objective and inherent property.
**Akin to how 'hot' and 'cold' are subjective labels that have no real physical distinction.

EDIT: Bugger, I wanted a poll, but that seems to have gone head over foot. Nevermind.

Morality must be measured against a standard of absolute perfection and truth that never changes. Thus TRUE morality will never be subjective.

Men want it to be subjective in order to justify doing what they want to do. But the absolute Truth that is Jesus Christ demands that morality NOT be subjective.
 
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Belk

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Is morality objective or subjective? By that I mean, are some actions intrinsically 'good' or 'evil' , or are 'good' and 'evil' labels that we humans ascribe to them*?

*Akin to how an object's length is an objective and inherent property.
**Akin to how 'hot' and 'cold' are subjective labels that have no real physical distinction.

EDIT: Bugger, I wanted a poll, but that seems to have gone head over foot. Nevermind.

Not only do I not know, I can think of no way to test to determine the veracity of either side.
 
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