Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Politics are what's wrong with society and the churchYou keep showing up in the wrong places then. Politics are the point of the discussions I have seen you injecting yourself into. It is quite the claim to complain about politics in the discussion of inherently political things.
We'll come back to it in a moment, but church on Sudays was not the dominant thing.Church on Sundays, prayers in public forums, referring to God and Godly upright citizens.
The US Congress begins every *day* with a prayer by a chaplain. (Sigh.) This has not changed.They had a Christian worldview and these were the social norms and not just confined to sunady church.. This was the same when I was growing up where pray was in parliament,
They still do. The last one didn't seem that sincere about it and the current one often substitutes "god bless our troops".presidents utters God bless America
But that wasn't the case. Church attendance peaked in the 50s/60s meaning that it was lower not only afterward, but *BEFORE*.and most people attended church.
And as we have discussed previously, many of these "Christian values" are not exclusive, especially the ones that were social norms.So its not too long ago that we still had God and Christian values as social norms.
I'm not sure how fruitful this line will be, as everything adjacent to Christianity seems to be just regular Christianity in you approximation.When you take all your seperatists groups who were after all squabling over Christianity yes it was all about Christianity at one stage. Enough anyway that it influenced the public square and social norms, which is enough compared to modern times.
There were and still are. The point of blue laws is that without them people will do non-church stuff and the Christians with power don't like that. If everyone went to church instead of the lake or the football game, there wouldn't be such a "need" for blue laws.Ok so I read different. But even dependening on which nation there were laws (Blue laws) preventing work on Sundays to encourage church going even as recent as a few decades ago.
When I was a kid our parish was the product of the merger of two small parishes and alternated masses by weeks. One of the two was in a town with a grocery (the other wasn't) and we generally went to the grocery store after church, but the town with the grocery store had Sunday closing laws so the grocery store couldn't be open and we would drive to a town further away every week for our groceries. (The same town also closed the local bars on Sunday, but I hear that the "back door" was always open on game days.)Blue laws, also known as Sunday laws, Sunday trade laws, and Sunday closing laws, are laws restricting or banning certain activities on specified days, usually Sundays in the western world. The laws were adopted originally for religious reasons, specifically to promote the observance of the Christian day of worship, but since then have come to serve secular purposes as well.
Sunday Laws in America
Other colonies besides Virginia had their own Sunday laws, requiring attendance at services and forbidding everything from working to sports and recreation to swearing and "tippling" at the taverns.
What "persecution of the church"? There has been no persecution of the church in our countries in our lifetime. As for the child abuse, the only child abuse I know of that seems even remotely related is the abuse that was covered up by many churches and related organizations. I don't know how that can conceivably work to your argument.I am sure there has always been strange and alternative interpretations of Christianity. I mean look at the persecution of the church, look at the child abuse.
Did I say the were common? If I did, it would be better to say they weren't rare. There were also a lot more marriages that ended early in death. Respect for the "institution of marriage" seems to carry a lot of baggage and places the "institution" above the participants. Bad marriage *should* be ended, hopefully, mutually. They do no credit whatsoever to the "institution."I am not sure divorce and family abandonment was common, well not as common as it became after mid 20th century. More marriages lasted a long time. There was more respect and value for the institution of marriage.
Politics are what's wrong with society and the church
I haven't dodged any of that. I acknowledged that the West done bad stuff including the church and in the name of Christianity. I have also acknowledged the good stuff for which Christianity is one of them.For which right-wing Evangelicals like yourself want to give Christianity full credit for introducing to the West, while dodging responsibility for all of the bad things done in the name of Christianity.
The Trump propaganda machine lol. I am not sure what that is and nor do I know what exactly Trump stands for as far as US local politics.The article about Brazil is paywalled, so it's not quite clear what it has to do with US politics, but you certainly seem to have a direct line to the Trump propaganda machine down there in Oz. I'm surprised; I always thought Australians had more sense than that.
Which is the baby and which is the bath water? Conservative Christians like yourself want Christianity to have more political authority in order to fight the imaginary Woke monster and make sure non-Christians do sex like you want them to. You claim a right to that authority based on a dubious interpretation of history. All that looks like bathwater to me. Certainly I don't see the Gospel of Christ in it anywhere.I haven't dodged any of that. I acknowledged that the West done bad stuff including the church and in the name of Christianity. I have also acknowledged the good stuff for which Christianity is one of them.
I don't say Christianity invented these western ideas like democracy, Rule of Law and Human Rights but that Christianity aligns with these truths. They happen to go hand in hand as with Christs teachings.
This is the west warts and all. But we should not throw the baby out with the bathwater because the west has done some bad stuff in its past. We need to lean from that and like more like Christ. That is Christianity in action. That is the ultimate example of how we should behave.
Propaganda is not just the airing of ideological views, it is promoting those views with falsehoods that makes it propaganda.The Trump propaganda machine lol. I am not sure what that is and nor do I know what exactly Trump stands for as far as US local politics.
But what I find interesting is that people seem to take sides and assume the other is peddling propaganda and how they will destroy society, the world lol. This is the identity politics I am talking about. That people take this us and them stand like Trump and therefore anyone who supports him are the enermy, the 'other' group that are evil and dangerous.
Instead of perhaps finding out and understanding why they would support a particular party or idea. I remember watching when Trump won and people were devasted, crying, like it was the end of the world. There seems to be a lot more invested in it than it warrants.
But it certainly exposed the vast ideological difference that people become so passionate and even antagonistic of any opposing views. Rather than perhaps be more tolerant and understanding of different views which may have some basis.
The point is the language in government and society was a reflection of where they were at. Where their thinking and beliefs were at. They were obviously more God conscious in how they seen the world than we are today.We'll come back to it in a moment, but church on Sudays was not the dominant thing.
Are we going to base this on the invocations of god in public statements and events? (Oh, look we are.) Is your religion so weak that it needs to be sustained by government officials make statements of faith?
Ok there's still remenants of religion within the State. Who do they pray to. Is it the Christian God. If so why that God, why does parliament only allow the Christian God. Or is this now a token thing.The US Congress begins every *day* with a prayer by a chaplain. (Sigh.) This has not changed.
Well obviously the war had a lot to do with it. I think attendence fluctuated sometimes declining and then growing. It seems around 80% of people attended church in the early to mid 17th century. This may have fluctuated after this but still there was high attendence often by mothers presenting the family.But that wasn't the case. Church attendance peaked in the 50s/60s meaning that it was lower not only afterward, but *BEFORE*.
Really, no sex before marriage, anti gay and abortion laws, Sunday Blue laws, adultery ect.And as we have discussed previously, many of these "Christian values" are not exclusive, especially the ones that were social norms.
You were trying to make out that these squabbling denominations were contradictory to Christianity and I am saying thats a fallacy because they were all Christians squabbling over fringe aspects and not the core truths.I'm not sure how fruitful this line will be, as everything adjacent to Christianity seems to be just regular Christianity in you approximation.
It was more than that. For society to even have such laws influencing even secular society showed the central role Christian values played. At one point there were laws to go to church in some communities but it was a serious matter.There were and still are. The point of blue laws is that without them people will do non-church stuff and the Christians with power don't like that. If everyone went to church instead of the lake or the football game, there wouldn't be such a "need" for blue laws.
Of course and this is how it changes. People begin to buck the system and then it becomes wide spread and changes. But primarily this was a battle between the church having hold over peoples morals and the progression of modern secular society and of course secular society is going to win. Now Sunday is just like any other day.When I was a kid our parish was the product of the merger of two small parishes and alternated masses by weeks. One of the two was in a town with a grocery (the other wasn't) and we generally went to the grocery store after church, but the town with the grocery store had Sunday closing laws so the grocery store couldn't be open and we would drive to a town further away every week for our groceries. (The same town also closed the local bars on Sunday, but I hear that the "back door" was always open on game days.)
I don't agree with any group having so much sway over policy Christian, Woke or any ideology that is forced on people. Unless it is well justified. The Government here banned alcohol in some indigenous communities as this was becoming a big problem with abuse and safety.I've lived in places *IN THE 21st CENTURY* where alcohol sales were prohibited on Sundays. The Christians do this when they have enough control and/or can bully the rest in to accepting their control.
I was talking about the child abuse in the church and I was trying to make a arguement for the church. I was adding to you saying how people can abuse their power and position in the name of Christianity. Thats why the church should not be a political entity but just deal with spiritual matters.What "persecution of the church"? There has been no persecution of the church in our countries in our lifetime. As for the child abuse, the only child abuse I know of that seems even remotely related is the abuse that was covered up by many churches and related organizations. I don't know how that can conceivably work to your argument.
I think it all comes down to how marriage is valued. Sure basd marriages should either be fixed or ended. But its like a self feeding vicious cycle where marriage has been devalued so it creates bad marriages which need to end.Did I say the were common? If I did, it would be better to say they weren't rare. There were also a lot more marriages that ended early in death. Respect for the "institution of marriage" seems to carry a lot of baggage and places the "institution" above the participants. Bad marriage *should* be ended, hopefully, mutually. They do no credit whatsoever to the "institution."
OK, let's see how that works: A couple of decades ago there was a notorious school prayer case in Texas, Santa Fe School District v. Doe.I know that there is a growing move to remove pray and other practices from governance at least in other nations like Australia, Canada and Britain.
Mine grows in proportion to the amount of time I spend here.Hostility Towards Christianity Increasing in U.S. and Europe, Experts Warn
That's a really bad argument for the existence of churches. It's a better argument for their dissolution.I was talking about the child abuse in the church and I was trying to make a arguement for the church. I was adding to you saying how people can abuse their power and position in the name of Christianity. Thats why the church should not be a political entity but just deal with spiritual matters.
I for one would very much like to see Christianity revert back to it's earlier Roman Empire days. The reason being is that the way Christianity became the predominate religion back than is that the believers worked hard in bringing Love to the common people by helping those in need. The welfare of People was their agenda, not politics nor money. It was a communal trajectory of Love for all. It was very Christ Like.In some ways I think Christianity is being reverted back to its early days within the Roman Empire where Christians were forced to go underground and were attacked for their belief.
I think this may happen more and this will really test peoples faith and this is when Christ shines. Though the bible does say the world will hate you because of faiyj in Christ.I for one would very much like to see Christianity revert back to it's earlier Roman Empire days. The reason being is that the way Christianity became the predominate religion back than is that the believers worked hard in bringing Love to the common people by helping those in need. The welfare of People was their agenda, not politics nor money. It was a communal trajectory of Love for all. It was very Christ Like.
Not really, no more than saying that the law and justice has been abused or that politics has been used to abuse but that doesn't negate the good these things serve.That's a really bad argument for the existence of churches. It's a better argument for their dissolution.
Lol well then don't spent so much time here lol. Go on you like it don't you, admit it lol.Mine grows in proportion to the amount of time I spend here.
What is it with the US and cases involving Doe. Doe seems to be everywhere.OK, let's see how that works: A couple of decades ago there was a notorious school prayer case in Texas, Santa Fe School District v. Doe.
I don't even know about that case as I am not from the US. But what interests me is how these group activists who complain that some other religion is allowed in the first place. If as these activists claim all people should have the right to express their faith then why complain about another religious group expressing their faith.It was traditional in the district that high school football games started with a prayer. Because it was a conservative region, it was always an Evangelical Protestant prayer. Eventually, a group of parents belonging to other faith groups (note: no atheists were involved) sued the district for violation of their First Amendment rights under the Constitution. Early on in the proceedings, a compromise was offered by them that the prayer be rotated around to representatives of the other faith groups in the school. The district rejected it out of hand, saying it would be an Evangelical prayer or nothing. In the end, the Supreme Court gave them nothing, and conservatives like you still whine about that case, saying that God has been forced out of the school. What do you say? I say, good riddance.
"John Doe" is used as a legal stand-in name where the plaintiffs want to remain anonymous--in this case for their own safety.What is it with the US and cases involving Doe. Doe seems to be everywhere.
Because it's a public (i.e. government) school event. If there is to be a prayer at public school activities (a dubious proposition to begin with) why should it always be your prayer? The students aren't all Evangelicals. There are other Protestants in the school and Roman Catholics as well. Why shouldn't one of them lead the prayer sometimes? But no, they're just "activists" for wanting to.I don't even know about that case as I am not from the US. But what interests me is how these group activists who complain that some other religion is allowed in the first place. If as these activists claim all people should have the right to express their faith then why complain about another religious group expressing their faith.
Not if people like you get their way. Just like the Santa Fe School District, you insist on your version of Christianity or nothing. Don't be surprised if you get nothing.The fact is western nations were and still are to a fair degree at least more than any other religion predominant and therefore under religious freedom it naturally follows that western societies are going to be expressing Christianity more than any other religion. People will hear it more and there will be more motivation and drive within society for Christian expression.
Not so weird when you realize how many Christians are in that mix and siding against you as well.If religious freedom is a right then we should expect to see more expressions of Christianity. Even if that bugs people. Thats how its suppose to work. But in some strange way the Woke are siding with radical Islam over Christianity which is a weird collaborition.
On one side it's about equality and rights. Your side is the one that's about ideological beliefs and culture wars.So its not really about equality and rights but about ideological beliefs and culture wars.
Are these actual Christian denominations arguing among themselves or is this another religion. Because if its Christian denominations then the easy solution is the Lords Prayer which Parliament uses. Its a universal Christian prayer and is actually the prayer Christ said to pray."John Doe" is used as a legal stand-in name where the plaintiffs want to remain anonymous--in this case for their own safety.
Because it's a public (i.e. government) school event. If there is to be a prayer at public school activities (a dubious proposition to begin with) why should it always be your prayer? The students aren't all Evangelicals. There are other Protestants in the school and Roman Catholics as well. Why shouldn't one of them lead the prayer sometimes? But no, they're just "activists" for wanting to.
Who are these people you keep referring to. You keep mentioning these American examples and Australian politics is not like this. Or at least not that extreme. I am not even sure what your point is. Your obviously assuming that I belong to some particular political party.Not if people like you get their way. Just like the Santa Fe School District, you insist on your version of Christianity or nothing. Don't be surprised if you get nothing.
Siding against what lol. What are you saying I am pushing because whatever it is your attributing something that I am not. But whatever it is it seems to bug you and just about every reply is an attack on this strawmnan you have created. It seems more personal than what actually is.Not so weird when you realize how many Christians are in that mix and siding against you as well.
Once again what is my side. I stand for truth, facts, and reality regardless of religious belief. Its the only way we can know whats going on lol. What have I actually pushed. Lets see democracy, Rule of Law, Freedoms like religion, conscience and political views, Human Rights, human dignity and worth beyond human determinations, the value of family and santity of marriage.On one side it's about equality and rights. Your side is the one that's about ideological beliefs and culture wars.
The only prayer in a public school should be student led, voluntary and informal. Not over the loudspeaker at a football game. If some of the students want to say a prayer before or after the game or when a player gets injured that’s fine,"John Doe" is used as a legal stand-in name where the plaintiffs want to remain anonymous--in this case for their own safety.
Because it's a public (i.e. government) school event. If there is to be a prayer at public school activities (a dubious proposition to begin with) why should it always be your prayer? The students aren't all Evangelicals. There are other Protestants in the school and Roman Catholics as well. Why shouldn't one of them lead the prayer sometimes? But no, they're just "activists" for wanting to.
Not if people like you get their way. Just like the Santa Fe School District, you insist on your version of Christianity or nothing. Don't be surprised if you get nothing.
Not so weird when you realize how many Christians are in that mix and siding against you as well.
On one side it's about equality and rights. Your side is the one that's about ideological beliefs and culture wars.
I do miss it every time I have an enforced break. (That would happen less, but some Christians are very sensitive about some things...Lol well then don't spent so much time here lol. Go on you like it don't you, admit it lol.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?