Is Lying Immoral (Sinful, Illegal)?

[coberst]

Is Lying Immoral (Sinful, Illegal)?

I was raised in a Catholic family and went to Catholic schools and was taught by nuns that lying was a sin. To me and my fellow Catholic kids lying was the most serious sin we could imagine. We were taught that we had to “examine our conscience” before confession and to tell the priest of our sins in the confessional.

How does a kid tell the difference between a “white lie” and a “sin lie” or any of the other forms of “lies” that we saw adults indulge in? Surly Mom and Dad did not lie! It was all a great puzzlement!

The nuns taught us all about moral concepts; of course, they did not use such big words. I have later learned that the nuns taught us in accordance with a classical, also called objectivist, theory of categorical structure.

“According to the classical or objectivist theory of categorical structure, there must be a set of necessary and sufficient conditions the possession of which alone makes a speech act a lie…As a Moral Law theorist and an absolutist, Alan Donagan defines the essential features of a lie as “any free linguistic utterance expressing something contrary to the speaker’s mind”.”

Linda Coleman and Paul Kay have discovered facts that indicate that “the category of lie exhibits prototype effects; that is, there are certain central instances of speech acts that speakers easily and noncontroversial recognize as lies.”

What are these prototype effects that Coleman and Kay speak of?

Lie is a concept that displays a core structure surrounded by a “fuzzy” penumbra (fringe) of less clear-cut cases about which the speaker may be justifiably unsure as to their moral objectionability: such a penumbra might contain such things as mistakes, jokes, exaggerations, white lies, social lies, and over simplifications.

Coleman and Kay found that these core cases that everyone could easily agree upon as being lies, i.e. those prototypical cases of clear-cut lies, fulfilled all three of the following conditions: 1) the speaker is confident that the statement is erroneous, 2) the speaker is intent upon deceiving the listener, and 3) the statement is in fact erroneous.

The less prototypical instances of lying fulfilled one or two conditions but not all three. Furthermore, tests were run and it was discovered that subjects typically rated the conditions in order of “importance”: 1) being most important and 3) being the least important. Subjects seemed to agree on the relative weights given to the individual elements.

We see here that lie does not follow the classical objectivist strict categorization. A fixed set of essential conditions do not exist and there is considerable internal structure to the concept that are of a great deal of importance in determining whether a statement qualifies as a lie or not.

Quotes from Moral Imagination by Mark Johnson

 

[maybenotcrazy]

Is Lying Immoral (Sinful, Illegal)?

I was raised in a Catholic family and went to Catholic schools and was taught by nuns that lying was a sin. To me and my fellow Catholic kids lying was the most serious sin we could imagine. We were taught that we had to “examine our conscience” before confession and to tell the priest of our sins in the confessional.

How does a kid tell the difference between a “white lie” and a “sin lie” or any of the other forms of “lies” that we saw adults indulge in? Surly Mom and Dad did not lie! It was all a great puzzlement!

The nuns taught us all about moral concepts; of course, they did not use such big words. I have later learned that the nuns taught us in accordance with a classical, also called objectivist, theory of categorical structure.

“According to the classical or objectivist theory of categorical structure, there must be a set of necessary and sufficient conditions the possession of which alone makes a speech act a lie…As a Moral Law theorist and an absolutist, Alan Donagan defines the essential features of a lie as “any free linguistic utterance expressing something contrary to the speaker’s mind”.”

Linda Coleman and Paul Kay have discovered facts that indicate that “the category of lie exhibits prototype effects; that is, there are certain central instances of speech acts that speakers easily and noncontroversial recognize as lies.”

What are these prototype effects that Coleman and Kay speak of?

Lie is a concept that displays a core structure surrounded by a “fuzzy” penumbra (fringe) of less clear-cut cases about which the speaker may be justifiably unsure as to their moral objectionability: such a penumbra might contain such things as mistakes, jokes, exaggerations, white lies, social lies, and over simplifications.

Coleman and Kay found that these core cases that everyone could easily agree upon as being lies, i.e. those prototypical cases of clear-cut lies, fulfilled all three of the following conditions: 1) the speaker is confident that the statement is erroneous, 2) the speaker is intent upon deceiving the listener, and 3) the statement is in fact erroneous.

The less prototypical instances of lying fulfilled one or two conditions but not all three. Furthermore, tests were run and it was discovered that subjects typically rated the conditions in order of “importance”: 1) being most important and 3) being the least important. Subjects seemed to agree on the relative weights given to the individual elements.

We see here that lie does not follow the classical objectivist strict categorization. A fixed set of essential conditions do not exist and there is considerable internal structure to the concept that are of a great deal of importance in determining whether a statement qualifies as a lie or not.

Quotes from Moral Imagination by Mark Johnson

While intention to deceive means that a lie is not contrary to a speakers mind (which by the way seems to me to be equivalent with knowing the statement is erroneous, they are not two things. You don't tell someone something that isn't true without deceiving them unless you qualify beforehand)- naturally a thing can be erroneous without you knowing it, in that case I would call it a blameless lie, like a mistake. I still think the classical view according to your quote makes perfect sense. A lie (which is a word that implies blame) is a knowledgeable utterance of something contrary to your beliefs on fact- perhaps I am even making it more classical than your definition... The intent is always to deceive and deception while it is in varying degrees sinful, in this human world may be a necessary evil. What I mean by that is that humans are ALL in shades somewhat evil. We are all capable of doing things with knowledge that we should not do and a "white" lie may serve at least one purpose in protecting the liar from evil and injustice by his fellow man, which includes priests who after all are human. I prefer to lie as little as possible though occasionally I fail. I think ultimately in most lies that involve serious matters you are not deceiving anyone other than yourself, for God always knows the truth. Lies then are sins especially when they are committed in a context where justice is thwarted or where God is the target, such as in confession and prayer. Even if you lie to everyone else, never lie to god. Always admit to him your sins. This will be counted for as at least an antidote to the necessary evil of white lies to your priest. Tell God you are sorry that in this world you can't disclose everything but acknowledge that he knows you inside and out and you'll gain his trust.


Call me crazy but I think the whole purpose of semantic trash like category theory is to create further rationalizations for amoral behavior and destruction of religious values. Try to structure something that people have an intuitive notion of so you can make them intellectually override their ingrained sense of morals. This is delusional thought to the highest degree. It is extremely self-destructive and societally destructive to trash morals and ethics.


Before you know it a megalomaniac dictator will take this academic trash and find a philosophy that says there is a very small umbra in the concept of murder surrounded by a large penumbra and that the orbit of the implied hedonistic life from philosophical argument around slavery is incredibly tight. Thus By this planetary logic he'll say we must come to the conclusion that murder is not quite what it seems and slavery is essential to living the way we were meant to live. BY JOVE he'll say: I'm sure the saturnine will love my thinking and the more earthy in mentality will be of no consequence if laid to rest in one of my marsian episodes of fury. May the gods rejoice over my great mind (till his time comes to an end in fire and ignominy) this is what I see as being the great philosophical edifice known as the "strong delusion" so that man may believe a lie philosophers will construct an elaborate web of amoral discourse, God will be manifested in that man who embodies it to its core. "We" will be living the way we were meant to be and all who disagree there would be no murder in their "extirpation" much like the necessity of weeding in a farm.

 

[Blackmarch]

Is Lying Immoral (Sinful, Illegal)?

I was raised in a Catholic family and went to Catholic schools and was taught by nuns that lying was a sin. To me and my fellow Catholic kids lying was the most serious sin we could imagine. We were taught that we had to “examine our conscience” before confession and to tell the priest of our sins in the confessional.

How does a kid tell the difference between a “white lie” and a “sin lie” or any of the other forms of “lies” that we saw adults indulge in? Surly Mom and Dad did not lie! It was all a great puzzlement!

The nuns taught us all about moral concepts; of course, they did not use such big words. I have later learned that the nuns taught us in accordance with a classical, also called objectivist, theory of categorical structure.

“According to the classical or objectivist theory of categorical structure, there must be a set of necessary and sufficient conditions the possession of which alone makes a speech act a lie…As a Moral Law theorist and an absolutist, Alan Donagan defines the essential features of a lie as “any free linguistic utterance expressing something contrary to the speaker’s mind”.”

Linda Coleman and Paul Kay have discovered facts that indicate that “the category of lie exhibits prototype effects; that is, there are certain central instances of speech acts that speakers easily and noncontroversial recognize as lies.”

What are these prototype effects that Coleman and Kay speak of?

Lie is a concept that displays a core structure surrounded by a “fuzzy” penumbra (fringe) of less clear-cut cases about which the speaker may be justifiably unsure as to their moral objectionability: such a penumbra might contain such things as mistakes, jokes, exaggerations, white lies, social lies, and over simplifications.

Coleman and Kay found that these core cases that everyone could easily agree upon as being lies, i.e. those prototypical cases of clear-cut lies, fulfilled all three of the following conditions: 1) the speaker is confident that the statement is erroneous, 2) the speaker is intent upon deceiving the listener, and 3) the statement is in fact erroneous.

The less prototypical instances of lying fulfilled one or two conditions but not all three. Furthermore, tests were run and it was discovered that subjects typically rated the conditions in order of “importance”: 1) being most important and 3) being the least important. Subjects seemed to agree on the relative weights given to the individual elements.

We see here that lie does not follow the classical objectivist strict categorization. A fixed set of essential conditions do not exist and there is considerable internal structure to the concept that are of a great deal of importance in determining whether a statement qualifies as a lie or not.

Quotes from Moral Imagination by Mark Johnson

a lie is what someone does to decieve another. and that is immoral, whether or not is completely fabricated or even using facts. Other than that I do not try to catalogue the many different ways deception can be done, as they are many and that time is probably better spent on more profitable things.

Is it sinful? yes we are commanded not to lie.

Is it illegal? Depends on the situation.