Is Love Greater than All?

[spockrates]

13 And now these three remain--faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

(1 Corinthians 13:13)

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Is love really the greater than faith and hope? Is there nothing greater? Why is it greater or greatest of all?

 

[2ndRateMind]

Because, as we know, God is Love. Faith and hope are necessary for humanity, but not for God. So, if we are to emulate God, the quickest way is to love widely, deeply, and unconditionally.

Cheers, 2RM.

 

[spockrates]

Because, as we know, God is Love. Faith and hope are necessary for humanity, but not for God. So, if we are to emulate God, the quickest way is to love widely, deeply, and unconditionally.

Cheers, 2RM.

Thanks for posting a first-rate answer, 2ndRate.



Yes, I agree we are to try to become like Christ, as Paul wrote:

1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.

(Ephesians 5)

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But shouldn't we also imitate him in his faith and hope? If so, then I'm not sure the requirement to imitate him in his love makes love greater. At least, I don't see how it does if we are to also imitate him in his faith and hope. So there must be a different reason why love is greater, don't you think?

 

[2ndRateMind]

Indeed, I think for us mortal coils faith and hope feed love, which vindicates faith and hope, which feeds more love, and so on, and so on, in an increasingly intense and virtuous vortex of spirituality. But for me, it is love that is the purpose of the whole project. So, I don't want to diminish faith or hope, just exalt love.

Cheers, 2RM.

 

[spockrates]

Indeed, I think for us mortal coils faith and hope feed love, which vindicates faith and hope, which feeds more love, and so on, and so on, in an increasingly intense and virtuous vortex of spirituality. But for me, it is love that is the purpose of the whole project. So, I don't want to diminish faith or hope, just exalt love.

Cheers, 2RM.

Yes, I agree. Faith does seem to be a means to the end of being loved by and loving God and others. But I suppose someone might disagree with you and me and say his purpose in life is to trust and hope in God. He might quote this scripture:

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

(Hebrews 11:6)

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He might say we are saved from hell through belief, or faith, rather than love, and quote additional scripture to make his point. How should we respond to someone who holds faith in higher esteem than love?

 

[2ndRateMind]

Well, I'm not sure. I don't really go in for evangelism, in the normal sense of the word. That's because I think we all (Jew and gentile, Christian and Muslim, pagan and atheist) end up in the presence of God, anyway. So I feel no pressure over other people's faith - that's their business, and they can have the relevant conversation with God when it is time for them to do so.

I would feel sad that someone who thinks themselves a Christian has missed the crucial point of the crucifixion, which was nothing if not a demonstration of love. And a love so intense that not even life itself was too great or dear a possession to lose for it's sake. So, I guess I wouldn't say much, and just get on with the business of working on my own belief system. And when I've done that, maybe I'll have a better answer for you.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[DPMartin]

spockrates

Faith is basically trust and belief, and hope is expectation. If one has expectation in the promises of fulfillment in Christ that would be because one believes and or trusts, (mainly trusts) who promised, which in this case is the Lord God of Israel. Because the relationship between God and His People is trust, and no one can say they love God, if they don’t trust God. The Lord God said that King David was a man after His own heart, and if you read King David’s stories and Psalms you would see that King David always talked about his trust in the Lord and how he was delivered from this or that for it.

 

[seeingeyes]

13 And now these three remain--faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

(1 Corinthians 13:13)

​

Is love really the greater than faith and hope? Is there nothing greater? Why is it greater or greatest of all?

We have both faith and hope in our Father's love. Love comes first.

 

[spockrates]

Well, I'm not sure. I don't really go in for evangelism, in the normal sense of the word. That's because I think we all (Jew and gentile, Christian and Muslim, pagan and atheist) end up in the presence of God, anyway. So I feel no pressure over other people's faith - that's their business, and they can have the relevant conversation with God when it is time for them to do so.

I would feel sad that someone who thinks themselves a Christian has missed the crucial point of the crucifixion, which was nothing if not a demonstration of love. And a love so intense that not even life itself was too great or dear a possession to lose for it's sake. So, I guess I wouldn't say much, and just get on with the business of working on my own belief system. And when I've done that, maybe I'll have a better answer for you.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Yes, I hear what you are saying, but don't give up so easily! If we truly love such a fierce defender of faith, should we not try to respectfully reason with her about the love she has so little faith in? If we put our heads together, I have faith you and I will find the loving answers to open her eyes, be she Evangelical, Fundamentalist or other.

 

[spockrates]

spockrates

Faith is basically trust and belief, and hope is expectation. If one has expectation in the promises of fulfillment in Christ that would be because one believes and or trusts, (mainly trusts) who promised, which in this case is the Lord God of Israel. Because the relationship between God and His People is trust, and no one can say they love God, if they don’t trust God. The Lord God said that King David was a man after His own heart, and if you read King David’s stories and Psalms you would see that King David always talked about his trust in the Lord and how he was delivered from this or that for it.

How are you, DP? I must commend you for starting out wisely. For it seems to me the first step to understanding why love is greater than faith and hope is to define what they are. For if I have something different in mind than you when we use these words, we'll talk at each other but never understand one another.

I have to say I agree with your definition of faith, though I've met some Christians who don't. Your definition of hope also sounds good, but I'm not yet sure what you mean. When you say hope is expectation, do you mean it is a less certain kind of trust than faith? I'm thinking one who has great expectations that something will happen also understands that there is a chance--no matter how small--that what she expects might possibly not happen.

 

[spockrates]

We have both faith and hope in our Father's love. Love comes first.

Yes, Seeing. One object of faith and hope is God and his love, and God is Love. But what about our love? If we love the Love who is God, then isn't this Love the object of our love, too? That is, isn't true we not only put faith and hope in Love, but we also love Love?

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’"

(Matthew 22:37)

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[2ndRateMind]

...If we truly love such a fierce defender of faith, should we not try to respectfully reason with her about the love she has so little faith in? ...

I'm a great believer in reason, as you will know if you have seen any of my posts on other threads. But I'm afraid love is something one must feel, rather than reason about. Jesus' two great commandments: Love God! and: Love each other! were not justified by reason, and do not need to be. When one loves, all is clear. If one doesn't love, no reasoning will get you there.

The homosexual rabbi Lionel Blue once talked of 'the love affair that is religion'. It's one of the wisest little observations I have ever heard. But, to know it's wisdom, you need already to love. So, I would tend to let the loveless faithful be in their loveless faith. And let the Holy Spirit invade their hearts at whatever time and place God deems fit; no argument I could put has the power to turn a life so completely.

Cheers, 2RM.

 

[spockrates]

I'm a great believer in reason, as you will know if you have seen any of my posts on other threads. But I'm afraid love is something one must feel, rather than reason about. Jesus' two great commandments: Love God! and: Love each other! were not justified by reason, and do not need to be. When one loves, all is clear. If one doesn't love, no reasoning will get you there.

As the homosexual rabbi Lionel Blue once said, religion is a love affair. It's one of the wisest little sayings I have ever heard. But, to know it's wisdom, you need already to love. So, I would tend to let the loveless faithful be in their loveless faith. And let the Holy Spirit invade their hearts at whatever time and place God deems fit; no argument I could put has the power to turn a life so completely.

Cheers, 2RM.

As one with faith in reason, perhaps you find these words of Socrates reasonable?

No matter what the subject, there is for those who wish to deliberate well upon it always one and the same starting point: You must know what it is you are deliberating about, or you will inevitably fail altogether. Most people, however, are not aware of their ignorance of a thing’s essential nature, and because they think they know all about it, they fail to secure agreement about the premises of their inquiry at its beginning. As they proceed, they reap the predictable harvest of this oversight: They disagree with one another and even contradict themselves. Now, you and I must not be guilty of this fundamental error that we condemn in others.

(Phaedrus 237)


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I think we would be wise to follow the advice of his wisdom. For you and I seem to be contradicting each other, and even ourselves! We are contradicting each other in that I suspect love can be understood through reason and you suspect it cannot. Please forgive me for saying, but you seem to be contradicting yourself by saying love is not something one can reason about, but then you say we can know the wisdom of love. I think maybe I'm misunderstanding you, for I'm thinking that knowing the wisdom of something is the same as reasoning about it.

Perhaps, then it will help me not misunderstand you further if you define love for me. Please tell me: What is love? Is it an emotion, or something more than a feeling?

 

[seeingeyes]

Yes, Seeing. One object of faith and hope is God and his love, and God is Love. But what about our love? If we love the Love who is God, then isn't this Love the object of our love, too? That is, isn't true we not only put faith and hope in Love, but we also love Love?

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’"

(Matthew 22:37)

​

His love comes first. (Seek first His righteousness.)

Once we catch of glimpse of His amazing love, we may have faith in Him, hope in His love, which enables us to demonstrate the same fearless love that we have been shown in Christ.

Faith and hope are the starting acts, but love is the main event. It's what we're here for.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Perhaps, then it will help me not misunderstand you further if you define love for me. Please tell me: What is love? Is it an emotion, or something more than a feeling?

Ha Ha! No, I'm just not going there! Love defies definition. Ask any philosopher, any poet, any cleric, any couple, any parent, any lyricist. The most one can do is describe it, in such a way that other lovers will recognise what you are getting at, but even a description cannot evoke it where it does not exist.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[spockrates]

Ha Ha! No, I'm just not going there! Love defies definition. Ask any philosopher, any poet, any cleric, any couple, any parent, any lyricist. The most one can do is describe it, in such a way that other lovers will recognise what you are getting at, but even a description cannot evoke it where it does not exist.

Best wishes, 2RM.

You might be right that love is unknowable and so cannot be defined. But if you are, then what should we make of this?

17 ...And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

(Ephesians 3)

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Is Paul praying that Christians like ourselves may actually grasp what love truly is?

 

[spockrates]

His love comes first. (Seek first His righteousness.)

Once we catch of glimpse of His amazing love, we may have faith in Him, hope in His love, which enables us to demonstrate the same fearless love that we have been shown in Christ.

Faith and hope are the starting acts, but love is the main event. It's what we're here for.

I see what you mean, and I cannot think of any reason why what you say about faith and hope being lesser than love is not true. So I have no more questions about them (can you believe it?)




I do, however wonder if there is anything else greater than love. What do you think?

 

[2ndRateMind]

You might be right that love is unknowable and so cannot be defined. But if you are, then what should we make of this?

Well, one thing that occurs to me, given my penchant for reason, is that we can argue from love, but not to love.

So, we can say, because Jesus so loved the world, that He was crucified. And for people who know about love, that makes perfect sense. But we cannot say, because Jesus died for us, you should love Him, and expect people who do not love to realise what we are getting at.

Cheers, 2RM.

 

[seeingeyes]

Well, one thing that occurs to me, given my penchant for reason, is that we can argue from love, but not to love.

So, we can say, because Jesus so loved the world, that He was crucified. And for people who know about love, that makes perfect sense. But we cannot say, because Jesus died for us, you should love Him, and expect people who do not love to realise what we are getting at.

Cheers, 2RM.

Love can't be earned. Amen.

Freely give and freely receive!

 

[spockrates]

Well, one thing that occurs to me, given my penchant for reason, is that we can argue from love, but not to love.

So, we can say, because Jesus so loved the world, that He was crucified. And for people who know about love, that makes perfect sense. But we cannot say, because Jesus died for us, you should love Him, and expect people who do not love to realise what we are getting at.

Cheers, 2RM.

But consider what you are saying: You say (rightly so, I think) that there are "people who know about love." Yet, you also have asserted that love defines definition and so, it can never be known. Am I missing something? Maybe you are speaking of two different types of knowing? For if love cannot be known rationally, but it can be known, then you must be speaking of some kind of knowledge that is not rational, I suppose. Please explain exactly what kind of knowledge knows love.