Is ki real?

[Havoc]

Interesting that you do not understand what Bible is. It is not a science fiction novel or a book on holistic medicine. It is the inspired word of God. I do not have to believe everything in Bible. The Holy Spirit brings me to that point. I have had many arguments and fights with God on how he does things, but every time I loose.

Following God is not closing your eyes and starting to walk and hoping that you arrive at the right place. Following God is not some haphazard path that allows you to pick and choose what words of God you like and then elevate them to your standard of righteousness, faith, tuth,morality, or whatever. It does not work that way. God is strict and direct about things that matter to Him.

The Bible is the not the authority of my life: Christ is, for starters. It is the Bible that gives me some written account about my Creator, and that allows me to come to know Him and trust Him. He gives me a record of His performance: something concrete that I can measure. The Bible is just a vehicle to drive me to Him.

Regarding your statement: So, if you want to see things that way, gaijin178, it is your choice. It is far from the truth, though.

I talk to God daily. He told me long ago not to worry about the Bible since He didn't write it.

 

[PaladinValer]

I only gave a perspective that is in line with Bible. Would you rather that I say something that is not Biblical and contradict what my Lord spells out for me? I do not say things just because Bible says so. It is my walk with Christ that convicts me and confirms what I say. If I give an opinion, then you can jump on that. This is not an opinion.

Here's something that is Biblical: "Do not bear false witness against your neighbor." The idea of chi/ki is one's soul or consciousness for Buddhists (since they [or at least orthodox Buddhists] do not believe in a "self"). That's it. That's their actual, true belief of what Reality is. And Christianity agrees that we do have a soul. If you knock their's, you've just denied orthodox Christian doctrine yourself. No way around it.

And here's another fact: the martial arts teaches that one's power comes from their soul or consciousness. THEIR'S. Not a different spirit's that invades; THEIR'S. Anyone whose ever read their religious texts knows that what I've said is true.

And for the last fact: the martial arts doesn't teach a person that it makes a person a god. It simply teaches discipline, inner harmony, outer harmony, respect, diligance, and self-esteem.

 

[Tomk80]

Thank you Paladin Valer. It is always good to see people given an informed opinion in stead of judging something of which they've got no idea what they're talking about.

 

[PaladinValer]

Tomk80, thank you. I know I sounded a little edgy in that post, but I'm just tired of fellow Christians talking trash about things, as you point out, that they have no idea about.

Luckily, I've taken some world religions classes, do individual study on all world religions, and have some non-Christian religious texts, so I think I've got a good idea on what different non-Christian religions teach and practice. Not that I'm going to convert, but so that I'm not ignorant when I talk about them. In fact, I'm always surprised in how many non-Christian beliefs and practices are the same, are similar, or are reconcilable with those of orthodox Christianity, and the philosophy behind the martial arts is definitely very reconcilable and similar.

 

[Proud Hindu]

On the topic of prana, check out this pic of a Hindu sage who has gained control of Prana, and can utilize the power stored in the kundalini serpent at the base of the spine at will:

Meditating in the Himalayas for days:
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/images/yogi_himalaya3.JPG

For contrast, Indian army soldiers must dress like this, and only can stay outside for a few hours, or they will freeze to death:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Articles/Article15a.jpg

Some true incidents of Hindu Saints utilizing Prana/Chi

"Before returning to Danapur, I spent a few days with a Bengali family at Moradabad. A party of six friends gathered to greet me. As I turned the conversation to spiritual subjects, my host observed gloomily:
"'Oh, in these days India is destitute of saints!'
"'Babu,' I protested warmly, 'of course there are still great masters in this land!'
"In a mood of exalted fervor, I felt impelled to relate my miraculous experiences in the Himalayas. The little company was politely incredulous.
"'Lahiri,' one man said soothingly, 'your mind has been under a strain in those rarefied mountain airs. This is some daydream you have recounted.'
"Burning with the enthusiasm of truth, I spoke without due thought. 'If I call him, my guru will appear right in this house.'
"Interest gleamed in every eye; it was no wonder that the group was eager to behold a saint materialized in such a strange way. Half-reluctantly, I asked for a quiet room and two new woolen blankets.
"'The master will materialize from the ether,' I said. 'Remain silently outside the door; I shall soon call you.'
"I sank into the meditative state, humbly summoning my guru. The darkened room soon filled with a dim aural moonlight; the luminous figure of Babaji emerged.
"'Lahiri, do you call me for a trifle?' The master's gaze was stern. 'Truth is for earnest seekers, not for those of idle curiosity. It is easy to believe when one sees; there is nothing then to deny. Supersensual truth is deserved and discovered by those who overcome their natural materialistic skepticism.' He added gravely, 'Let me go!'
"I fell entreatingly at his feet. 'Holy guru, I realize my serious error; I humbly ask pardon. It was to create faith in these spiritually blinded minds that I ventured to call you. Because you have graciously appeared at my prayer, please do not depart without bestowing a blessing on my friends. Unbelievers though they be, at least they were willing to investigate the truth of my strange assertions.'
"'Very well; I will stay awhile. I do not wish your word discredited before your friends.' Babaji's face had softened, but he added gently, 'Henceforth, my son, I shall come when you need me, and not always when you call me. '
"Tense silence reigned in the little group when I opened the door. As if mistrusting their senses, my friends stared at the lustrous figure on the blanket seat.
"'This is mass-hypnotism!' One man laughed blatantly. 'No one could possibly have entered this room without our knowledge!'
"Babaji advanced smilingly and motioned to each one to touch the warm, solid flesh of his body. Doubts dispelled, my friends prostrated themselves on the floor in awed repentance.
"'Let halua be prepared.' Babaji made this request, I knew, to further assure the group of his physical reality. While the porridge was boiling, the divine guru chatted affably. Great was the metamorphosis of these doubting Thomases into devout St. Pauls. After we had eaten, Babaji blessed each of us in turn. There was a sudden flash; we witnessed the instantaneous dechemicalization of the electronic elements of Babaji's body into a spreading vaporous light. The God-tuned will power of the master had loosened its grasp of the ether atoms held together as his body; forthwith the trillions of tiny lifetronic sparks faded into the infinite reservoir.
"'With my own eyes I have seen the conqueror of death.' Maitra, one of the group, spoke reverently. His face was transfigured with the joy of his recent awakening. 'The supreme guru played with time and space, as a child plays with bubbles. I have beheld one with the keys of heaven and earth.'

An experience of the great Yogi Shri Paramahansa Yogananda

In 1915, shortly after I had entered the Swami Order, I witnessed a vision of violent contrasts. In it the relativity of human consciousness was vividly established; I clearly perceived the unity of the Eternal Light behind the painful dualities of maya. The vision descended on me as I sat one morning in my little attic room in Father's Gurpar Road home. For months World War I had been raging in Europe; I reflected sadly on the vast toll of death.
As I closed my eyes in meditation, my consciousness was suddenly transferred to the body of a captain in command of a battleship. The thunder of guns split the air as shots were exchanged between shore batteries and the ship's cannons. A huge shell hit the powder magazine and tore my ship asunder. I jumped into the water, together with the few sailors who had survived the explosion.
Heart pounding, I reached the shore safely. But alas! a stray bullet ended its furious flight in my chest. I fell groaning to the ground. My whole body was paralyzed, yet I was aware of possessing it as one is conscious of a leg gone to sleep.
"At last the mysterious footstep of Death has caught up with me," I thought. With a final sigh, I was about to sink into unconsciousness when lo! I found myself seated in the lotus posture in my Gurpar Road room.
Hysterical tears poured forth as I joyfully stroked and pinched my regained possession—a body free from any bullet hole in the breast. I rocked to and fro, inhaling and exhaling to assure myself that I was alive. Amidst these self-congratulations, again I found my consciousness transferred to the captain's dead body by the gory shore. Utter confusion of mind came upon me.
"Lord," I prayed, "am I dead or alive?"
A dazzling play of light filled the whole horizon. A soft rumbling vibration formed itself into words:
"What has life or death to do with Light? In the image of My Light I have made you. The relativities of life and death belong to the cosmic dream. Behold your dreamless being! Awake, my child, awake!"
As steps in man's awakening, the Lord inspires scientists to discover, at the right time and place, the secrets of His creation. Many modern discoveries help men to apprehend the cosmos as a varied expression of one power—light, guided by divine intelligence. The wonders of the motion picture, of radio, of television, of radar, of the photo-electric cell—the all-seeing "electric eye," of atomic energies, are all based on the electromagnetic phenomenon of light.
The motion picture art can portray any miracle. From the impressive visual standpoint, no marvel is barred to trick photography. A man's transparent astral body can be seen rising from his gross physical form, he can walk on the water, resurrect the dead, reverse the natural sequence of developments, and play havoc with time and space. Assembling the light images as he pleases, the photographer achieves optical wonders which a true master produces with actual light rays.
The lifelike images of the motion picture illustrate many truths concerning creation. The Cosmic Director has written His own plays, and assembled the tremendous casts for the pageant of the centuries. From the dark booth of eternity, He pours His creative beam through the films of successive ages, and the pictures are thrown on the screen of space. Just as the motion-picture images appear to be real, but are only combinations of light and shade, so is the universal variety a delusive seeming. The planetary spheres, with their countless forms of life, are naught but figures in a cosmic motion picture, temporarily true to five sense perceptions as the scenes are cast on the screen of man's consciousness by the infinite creative beam.
A cinema audience can look up and see that all screen images are appearing through the instrumentality of one imageless beam of light. The colorful universal drama is similarly issuing from the single white light of a Cosmic Source. With inconceivable ingenuity God is staging an entertainment for His human children, making them actors as well as audience in His planetary theater.
One day I entered a motion picture house to view a newsreel of the European battlefields. World War I was still being waged in the West; the newsreel recorded the carnage with such realism that I left the theater with a troubled heart.
"Lord," I prayed, "why dost Thou permit such suffering?"
To my intense surprise, an instant answer came in the form of a vision of the actual European battlefields. The horror of the struggle, filled with the dead and dying, far surpassed in ferocity any representation of the newsreel.
"Look intently!" A gentle voice spoke to my inner consciousness. "You will see that these scenes now being enacted in France are nothing but a play of chiaroscuro. They are the cosmic motion picture, as real and as unreal as the theater newsreel you have just seen—a play within a play."
My heart was still not comforted. The divine voice went on: "Creation is light and shadow both, else no picture is possible. The good and evil of maya must ever alternate in supremacy. If joy were ceaseless here in this world, would man ever seek another? Without suffering he scarcely cares to recall that he has forsaken his eternal home. Pain is a prod to remembrance. The way of escape is through wisdom! The tragedy of death is unreal; those who shudder at it are like an ignorant actor who dies of fright on the stage when nothing more is fired at him than a blank cartridge. My sons are the children of light; they will not sleep forever in delusion."
Although I had read scriptural accounts of maya, they had not given me the deep insight that came with the personal visions and their accompanying words of consolation. One's values are profoundly changed when he is finally convinced that creation is only a vast motion picture, and that not in it, but beyond it, lies his own reality.
As I finished writing this chapter, I sat on my bed in the lotus posture. My room was dimly lit by two shaded lamps. Lifting my gaze, I noticed that the ceiling was dotted with small mustard-colored lights, scintillating and quivering with a radiumlike luster. Myriads of pencilled rays, like sheets of rain, gathered into a transparent shaft and poured silently upon me.
At once my physical body lost its grossness and became metamorphosed into astral texture. I felt a floating sensation as, barely touching the bed, the weightless body shifted slightly and alternately to left and right. I looked around the room; the furniture and walls were as usual, but the little mass of light had so multiplied that the ceiling was invisible. I was wonder-struck.
"This is the cosmic motion picture mechanism." A voice spoke as though from within the light. "Shedding its beam on the white screen of your bed sheets, it is producing the picture of your body. Behold, your form is nothing but light!"

Recently in the news, there was the story of a Hindu Yogi, who had meditated under water for fifty years. He did not eat, he did not sleep, he did not breathe during this time. It was so unbelievable that many claimed it was a hoax, but upon checking his birth certificate, everything corresponded.

 

[vajradhara]

Namaste all,


interesting discussion.

i've enjoyed it thus far.

i would like to make a small correction to the record, however. Chi does not correspond with the Buddhist idea of consciousness. Chi is prajna.. the "breath of life" in the Tantric practices and is not considered consciousness.

having gotten that out of the way... to the OP.. yes, Chi/ki is real.. well... it's as real as you are it is a physiological phenomena that is produced by causes and conditions that are favorable to it.. i.e. a biological form and the presence of consciousness, at least from the Buddhist point of view.

like any other natual attribute of the body, it can be developed through practice, usually meditation, to an enhanced capability.

homebound is right on track.. this is the same thing that allows a mother to pick up a car off her trapped child... we could probably make a good argument that most extraordinary physical feats are accomplished through reliance on prajna or Chi.

to explore this topic from a Taoist point of view will take us down some slightly less worn path ways my practice experience in this regard is limited to a very specific school of Taoist praxis and thus, i wouldn't be able to present an overall view of the concept from the Taoist view.

 

[Tomk80]

On the topic of prana, check out this pic of a Hindu sage who has gained control of Prana, and can utilize the power stored in the kundalini serpent at the base of the spine at will:

Meditating in the Himalayas for days:
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/images/yogi_himalaya3.JPG

For contrast, Indian army soldiers must dress like this, and only can stay outside for a few hours, or they will freeze to death:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Articles/Article15a.jpg

Although I do not deem the above picture impossible, it does seem a strange picture to me. Somehow the distances between the Hindu sage in front and the mountainrange in back doesn't seem right. Anyone else any informed judgement? I'll try to show it to some people who are able to make a more informed judgement.

Some true incidents of Hindu Saints utilizing Prana/Chi

This might well be an urban legend or a story which is designed to teach a certain moral. How long ago did this take place according to the source? None of the people are named, and for me it would be quite hard to check on it (even if I wanted to).

An experience of the great Yogi Shri Paramahansa Yogananda

I do not doubt the great Yogi had a vision, however, for me this is by no means proof that the Yogi experienced something which was really going on somewhere else.

Recently in the news, there was the story of a Hindu Yogi, who had meditated under water for fifty years. He did not eat, he did not sleep, he did not breathe during this time. It was so unbelievable that many claimed it was a hoax, but upon checking his birth certificate, everything corresponded.

Sources please?

I do see Chi as a real occurrence, which enables us to do things which are deemed impossible by people who aren't trained in it. However, I am very skeptical about the more extreme claims you are making here. If you can point me to people who can perform these features at present (especially the second one would be nice), I will be happy to try and raise the money to go to them and see for myself.

 

[Fiendishjester]

I read where some have witnessed super-human feats attributed to meditation to summon the Serpent power( Kundalini).

Satan resides in the forces of this world, which includes ley lines, and other "high energy" states. It is my opinion that "chi" or "kundalini" Is nothing more than demonic posession in which the demon gives the host a "gratification" or power to do something supernatural.

First of all, giving Kundalini a negative connotation because it is related to the word "Serpent" is useless for two reasons:

1. Kundalini is called "Serpent power" because the energy is said to be coiled at the base of the spine, akin to the way a snake sits when coiled. Besides the way in which the energy is stored, there is no relation between serpents and Kundalini.

2. Even if Kundalini had a direct relation to Serpents, it would not mean much. Only in Western Abrahamic religion is the serpent associated with negativity and evil. In most Eastern Religions, like Hinduism, snakes are associated with wisdom, mysticism, and healing. It is useless to argue that the Abrahamic interpretation of the serpent as a deceiver and an evil entity is superior, because it cannot, and has never been, proven to be so.

Secondly, the energy of Kundalini is not an outside force, nor is Chi/Ki/Prana for that matter. Chi is something that is created internally, and flows through the body at all times. Kundalini is energy that you are born with, and lays latent inside you until harnessed. It is not possible for something you are born with and constantly operate with to be demonic or external in origin.

 

[Tomk80]

On the topic of prana, check out this pic of a Hindu sage who has gained control of Prana, and can utilize the power stored in the kundalini serpent at the base of the spine at will:

Meditating in the Himalayas for days:
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/images/yogi_himalaya3.JPG

And as an afterthought (with regards to the people who looked at the picture):
How do you know he is meditating there for days? I couldn't find anything on this on the site. If he just meditated for a short time, he could have made it without great training (although he probably would have left his rock a little bit blue in the face ).

edited to correct some terrible spelling mistakes

 

[Proud Hindu]

Although I do not deem the above picture impossible, it does seem a strange picture to me. Somehow the distances between the Hindu sage in front and the mountainrange in back doesn't seem right. Anyone else any informed judgement? I'll try to show it to some people who are able to make a more informed judgement.

I’m no expert on photography, let me know what they say

This might well be an urban legend or a story which is designed to teach a certain moral. How long ago did this take place according to the source? None of the people are named, and for me it would be quite hard to check on it (even if I wanted to).

Yes, I should have given the source, it is from the classic book Autobiography of a Yogi. The incident takes place in the early 1900’s, I will give you an exact date as soon as I find the book. As to its validity, there are those who witnessed it, but I cannot promise to find too much more info on them, as only their first names are given.

Sources please?

I do see Chi as a real occurrence, which enables us to do things which are deemed impossible by people who aren't trained in it. However, I am very skeptical about the more extreme claims you are making here. If you can point me to people who can perform these features at present (especially the second one would be nice), I will be happy to try and raise the money to go to them and see for myself.

Mata Amritanandamayi Devi has been seen to accomplish many amazing Yogic feats, indeed many of Her devotees believe Her to be a God-Realized Soul. Her website is www.ammachi.org She goes on a world tour every year, actually I would highly recommend you to attend it. And of course as a true Saint she does not exploit anyone, you will not have to “raise money” to see Her.

And as an afterthought (with regards to the people who looked at the picture):
How do you know he is meditating there for days? I couldn't find anything on this on the site. If he just meditated for a short time, he could have made it without great training (although he probably would have left his rock a little bit blue in the face

Heh, true I must admit I have no clue as to how long he’s been meditating, but my guess is that he wouldn’t go all the way to the Himalayas to meditate for a few minutes. And as he seems to be a Yogi as a living, as can be seen by the long matted hair - Most Yogis spend days in Samadhi.


Another dramatic examples as to the control of Prana/Chi, you may be familiar with the Indian tradition of Thimiti, or fire walking. This requrires great control over the body:

http://www.noren.nu/4s7/8.jpg
http://cullin.org/cbt/image/14-5.jpg

 

[Tomk80]

I’m no expert on photography, let me know what they say

Till now they give the same opinion as me. The shadow on the yogi seems different from the shading on the background. Also, the distances between foreground and background seem a bit sketchy. However, the resolution of the photo isn't very high, so it's hard to tell. I'd say, not guilty untill proven otherwise.

Yes, I should have given the source, it is from the classic book Autobiography of a Yogi. The incident takes place in the early 1900’s, I will give you an exact date as soon as I find the book. As to its validity, there are those who witnessed it, but I cannot promise to find too much more info on them, as only their first names are given.

Although I don't doubt their sincerity, I approach these accounts with the same skepticism as the stories of Jesus' appearance after his death. The possibility has been raised that this is a mass (well, not exactly a mass ) hallucination.

Mata Amritanandamayi Devi has been seen to accomplish many amazing Yogic feats, indeed many of Her devotees believe Her to be a God-Realized Soul. Her website is www.ammachi.org She goes on a world tour every year, actually I would highly recommend you to attend it. And of course as a true Saint she does not exploit anyone, you will not have to “raise money” to see Her.

I will definitely try to go and see her. I would have been more than willing to pay for it, but then again, if I don't have to...

Heh, true I must admit I have no clue as to how long he’s been meditating, but my guess is that he wouldn’t go all the way to the Himalayas to meditate for a few minutes. And as he seems to be a Yogi as a living, as can be seen by the long matted hair - Most Yogis spend days in Samadhi.

I actually found the meditating yogi on the site. Didn't give a timeframe though. It states that he is able to ignore his senses through meditation. This can mean different things. It could also mean that he can stay out in the cold for a reasonably long time (although not exceptional), but doesn't get to uncomfortable by it. Much like the firewalking below.

Another dramatic examples as to the control of Prana/Chi, you may be familiar with the Indian tradition of Thimiti, or fire walking. This requrires great control over the body:

http://www.noren.nu/4s7/8.jpg
http://cullin.org/cbt/image/14-5.jpg

Here I go again. I've actually seen people doing this without training on tv. Some guy in the Netherlands (my beautifull homecountry which I left some 3 months ago) named Emiel Ratelband, holds seminars which are supposed to give people confidence in themselves. At the end of the seminar he challenges the people to walk over glowing coals, as in the pictures. Although he has been sued a couple of times because of people burning their feet (apparently they weren't confident enough ) , most people actually perform this feat. The guy is nuts, but hey, it works.
But I know yogis to perform amazing feats, just as I already mentioned from the shaolin monks. Mastery of Chi means, as far as I am concerned, having a great understanding of your body and the energyflows within it. This gives you an enourmous potential, as well as inner harmony (which eventually is the objective of the training one goes through). And you feel great and relaxt after doing exercises based on the concept of chi. I would recommend it to anybody for the wholesome effect it has.

 

[peaceful soul]

I talk to God daily. He told me long ago not to worry about the Bible since He didn't write it.

I really do not thnk that God would confuse us with different messages, Havoc. I know God through Christ, and everything that He has proclaimed, has come to fruition as per Bible and His spoken words to me. He also tells me and shows me that all other attempts to know Him are futile, except throug Holy Spirit. God has to draw you toward Him in order for you to have a relationship with Him. He has to reform your spiritual nature and cleanse it from sin. He will not accept anything that you offer on your own. It is only through Holy Spirit that you come to know how to worship and to please Him.So I guess we will have to disagree, and we will find out in the future what really is true.

 

[peaceful soul]

Every time someone states that his views are the truth I get suspicious. I think it would be more fitting if you'd say that you gave a perspective which is in line with your interpretation of the bible and your interpretation of Chi. For one, your interpretation of Chi seems to differ from mine, second, your interpretation of the bible seems to differ from some of the other Christians here. Are you the only one who is right?

Yep, I also get suspicious when people try to incorporate things into their lives and not let God develop them the way that He sees fit. I also get suspicious when we believe that noone should be bold enough to speak truth. We have this built in skepticism that noone has "the truth"; so we must be so cautious about how we say things. I say it is truth according to Bible.

Yes, many people will interpret Bible to say almost anything, anyways. I am relying upon God as He teaches me, opposed to my opinion of what Bible says or does not say. I hope that helps you to see where my authority comes from. We are to seek understanding, wisdom, and knowledge from God and not from ourselves.

When people want to tap into energies and energy fields: that is not kosher. There is nothing that Holy Spirit can not protect me or any other person who obeys Christ from and give him strenght to do. That is the mindset that a Christian is to use in His life. We are to totally rely upon God for all things. When we try to manage our own affairs 1st, we are telling God that He is not in front and center of our lives.

If I remember correctly. I said spirits and forces. That would include concepts of chi. My point was:
Tapping into "psychic energies" or "ki" or "chi" is an occultic practice. Any religious practice to seek spiritual gain without God is wrong/

There are some martial arts that are spiritually less threatening than others for Christians, but that does not mean that they are safe to practice. If it is possible to emphasize the phyiscal aspects and not dwelve into the spiritual/mystical aspects of Eastern practices, you may be correct in your beliefs. We also have to be careful of not putting ourselves into altered states, where we allow ourselves to be seduced by other spirits/entities or whatever you want to call them.

For a Christian, God comes first and anything that oposes our spiritual development or that can not be obtained via Holy Spirit is a rebellion to God, and His spirit will not strive with us in those cases. We grieve His spirit whenever we go another way.

So, I hope that things are much clearer now. To all of you who think I am judging you, you are wrong. I am stating principles laid forth from Bible. If you think that I am in error, then you can take me to task with scripture. If you can not find any, then let it be.

Before posting, I thought that I would see how others would see this issue; so I am posting a few paragraphs I found interesting from a website. I will not disclose it yet. I just want you to tell me what you think of the following quotes:

The Chi (Ki) Force. Various martial artists assert that learning to develop and use chi - an alleged mystical force that pervades the universe - is the ultimate means of attaining high proficiency in the
fighting arts. Some believe that "in the Asian system of Martial Arts, ch'i is directed by will power to specific points of the body, resulting in apparently paranormal feats of strength and control."

Practically everyone acknowledges that the traditional concept of chi is deeply rooted in Eastern religion and philosophy. "In the Orient we apply the word ki ('chi') to the state which is also the real
nature of the universe," wrote leading aikido authority Koichi Tohei. "Ki has no beginning and no end; its absolute value neither increases nor decreases. We are one with the universal, and our lives are part of the life of the universal." Tohei's understanding of chi, in line with traditional views of other martial artists, strongly suggests a monistic and pantheistic world view. As stated above, this is incompatible with historic Christianity.

Still, there remains the issue of explaining superhuman acts typically attributed to chi, such as the smashing of multiple slabs of ice with a single blow. Some insist that the only explanation possible is the power of chi. Those on the opposite side of the spectrum, however, believe such exhibitions are accomplished by rigorous conditioning, simple physics, and good technique which, at times, is aided with a dash of trickery (as in the case of thawing the slabs of ice with hot wire). Some have suggested that perhaps certain biochemical reactions - such as an adrenaline surge - may also be involved.

Disclaimer: the above quote is not necessarily my take, but a tool to get you to think. Read it with as little discrimination as possible.

 

[PaladinValer]

No, you do not remember correctly. Chi/ki is the consciousness or soul. Christianity has the same idea. I've got their scriptures right here, in my hands, and nothing says chi/ki has anything remote quantity what Christians would call alien spirits or occult practices.

Don't believe me? Check it out yourself, but this brick wall arguement is beying dropped by moi and I wouldn't be surprised if others were sick of it also.

 

[Tomk80]

p

Yep, I also get suspicious when people try to incorporate things into their lives and not let God develop them the way that He sees fit. I also get suspicious when we believe that noone should be bold enough to speak truth. We have this built in skepticism that noone has "the truth"; so we must be so cautious about how we say things. I say it is truth according to Bible.

Yes, many people will interpret Bible to say almost anything, anyways. I am relying upon God as He teaches me, opposed to my opinion of what Bible says or does not say. I hope that helps you to see where my authority comes from. We are to seek understanding, wisdom, and knowledge from God and not from ourselves.

I hear a lot of christians say the same as you, peaceful soul, namely that they come to their particular view on wisdom and truth through God. However, they come to different conclusions about the bible than you do. Some of these differences are minor, some are completely opposite. Why? Why are you correct?

When people want to tap into energies and energy fields: that is not kosher. There is nothing that Holy Spirit can not protect me or any other person who obeys Christ from and give him strenght to do. That is the mindset that a Christian is to use in His life. We are to totally rely upon God for all things. When we try to manage our own affairs 1st, we are telling God that He is not in front and center of our lives.

If I remember correctly. I said spirits and forces. That would include concepts of chi. My point was:
Tapping into "psychic energies" or "ki" or "chi" is an occultic practice. Any religious practice to seek spiritual gain without God is wrong/

A friend of mine went to a monestary for a weekend. The nons there practiced meditation as a way to get closer to God (by using God or God's eternal love as a focus point). I don't think you have to practice aikido without God.

There are some martial arts that are spiritually less threatening than others for Christians, but that does not mean that they are safe to practice. If it is possible to emphasize the phyiscal aspects and not dwelve into the spiritual/mystical aspects of Eastern practices, you may be correct in your beliefs. We also have to be careful of not putting ourselves into altered states, where we allow ourselves to be seduced by other spirits/entities or whatever you want to call them.

For a Christian, God comes first and anything that oposes our spiritual development or that can not be obtained via Holy Spirit is a rebellion to God, and His spirit will not strive with us in those cases. We grieve His spirit whenever we go another way.

Again, I think it is very much possible to practice martial arts without going against your spiritual developement as a christian. However, this is something every christian will have to sort out for him/herself.

So, I hope that things are much clearer now. To all of you who think I am judging you, you are wrong. I am stating principles laid forth from Bible. If you think that I am in error, then you can take me to task with scripture. If you can not find any, then let it be.

Before posting, I thought that I would see how others would see this issue; so I am posting a few paragraphs I found interesting from a website. I will not disclose it yet. I just want you to tell me what you think of the following quotes:

The Chi (Ki) Force. Various martial artists assert that learning to develop and use chi - an alleged mystical force that pervades the universe - is the ultimate means of attaining high proficiency in the
fighting arts. Some believe that "in the Asian system of Martial Arts, ch'i is directed by will power to specific points of the body, resulting in apparently paranormal feats of strength and control."

Practically everyone acknowledges that the traditional concept of chi is deeply rooted in Eastern religion and philosophy. "In the Orient we apply the word ki ('chi') to the state which is also the real
nature of the universe," wrote leading aikido authority Koichi Tohei. "Ki has no beginning and no end; its absolute value neither increases nor decreases. We are one with the universal, and our lives are part of the life of the universal." Tohei's understanding of chi, in line with traditional views of other martial artists, strongly suggests a monistic and pantheistic world view. As stated above, this is incompatible with historic Christianity.

Still, there remains the issue of explaining superhuman acts typically attributed to chi, such as the smashing of multiple slabs of ice with a single blow. Some insist that the only explanation possible is the power of chi. Those on the opposite side of the spectrum, however, believe such exhibitions are accomplished by rigorous conditioning, simple physics, and good technique which, at times, is aided with a dash of trickery (as in the case of thawing the slabs of ice with hot wire). Some have suggested that perhaps certain biochemical reactions - such as an adrenaline surge - may also be involved.

Disclaimer: the above quote is not necessarily my take, but a tool to get you to think. Read it with as little discrimination as possible.

In the quote you gave chi is a mystical force. However, according to Paladin Valer it is the soul. According to others it is 'the life force', which for me would mean the same as the christian concept of soul. The difference in interpretation can be caused by the difference in culture.
Your answer is clear to me, I only disagree in the interpretation of what chi refers to. Then again, I'm not christian, nor buddist nor hindu. I don't agree with the idea that there are other spirits/forces than the one which is your own, and maybe God. This is where we truly disagree.

 

[Fiendishjester]

Why would tapping into ki go against God? If it is something we are born with, it must also be one of God's creations, there for a purpose. Christians take medicine or undergo surgery to cure illnesses, and using ki is along the exact same lines. In fact, I'd say that using ki, an internal energy that is part of you and part of God's creation, is more Christian than swallowing pills, which is a human creation (and therefore only indirectly God's) to cure your ills.

 

[povman]

Wow... it's been like 5 days and 30 replies!
Ok, by now i am fairly convinced that ki/chi is a real thing. I'm just concerned about how far it actually goes, as the 'grounding' technique where you visualise ki from the universe flowing into the centre of your body, i guess that's just a visualisation aid thing. Or the tenkan technique where you turn around the heaven&earth axis (heaven meaning out there in space, not the biblical term), you visualise ki flowing through your body and into infinity. heh, pretty powerful stuff this ki is.
I'm just saying this because a few people who replied to my original post say it's only inside your body, and not external, but sensei teaches that it's the energy of the *universe* which you are taking control of. I'm confused ? :/ can someone who has studied ki for a while please explain?

 

[Tomk80]

Wow... it's been like 5 days and 30 replies!
Ok, by now i am fairly convinced that ki/chi is a real thing. I'm just concerned about how far it actually goes, as the 'grounding' technique where you visualise ki from the universe flowing into the centre of your body, i guess that's just a visualisation aid thing. Or the tenkan technique where you turn around the heaven&earth axis (heaven meaning out there in space, not the biblical term), you visualise ki flowing through your body and into infinity. heh, pretty powerful stuff this ki is.
I'm just saying this because a few people who replied to my original post say it's only inside your body, and not external, but sensei teaches that it's the energy of the *universe* which you are taking control of. I'm confused ? :/ can someone who has studied ki for a while please explain?

For me, this is a visualisation tool. Others may disagree on this.
Visualizing the flows of energy helps you to concentrate on where the energy goes. One exercise I consider particularly strong in this is the 3th suburi if you do sword practice. Here you really can imagine being charged with all the energy from the cosmos. For me, the visualization makes you more aware of what you are doing. It is hard to do the same without it, because it is to abstract.
For me it works like this. In the third suburi you inhale, raising your sword. Then you lower your sword slowly, exhaling. After lowering your sword you quickly strike. Imagining that you absorb energy from the universe makes your breathing more complete, and the subsequent relaxation more relaxed. This way you are in a relaxed but powerfull position, which makes you feel charged. The subsequent strike releases the energy you build up because of this.
Does this explanation make sense to you?

 

[povman]

Thanks mate, I'm pretty confident that what i'm doing is right, now

 

[jhollas]

Nothingness.
Everything is nothing, and nothing is everything.
When your Sensei tells you use the energy of the "Universe," he is telling you to use the energy of everything. (i.e. the living energy)
The Universe contains everything, but is largely nothing.
Now, that probably doesn't make sense, because I have only been practising Martial Arts for about 5 years. I suspect that what I have said will make much more sense if you read the final chapter of Miyamoto Musashi's "Book of Five Rings."