Is Just War ever acceptable?

HighwayMan · Sep 10, 2017

SteveIndy said:
I thought we were talking about the Christian response to the question “Is Just War ever acceptable?” If you are referring to the world then anything they do is correct according to their Prince the Devil. But, if we are speaking of Christians, individually and not as a group, then my answer stands, Just War is not acceptable nor is the violent response against any enemy acceptable according to the N.T. It does not matter how I personally might respond, it only matters what the Bible says and the example of Christ, His Apostles, and how the primitive Church understood their teaching.

First, we must discount the O.T. as the final authority in this matter. The O.T. has been rewritten and only the N.T. can be used as evidence to settle the matter. Hebrews 8:7-8 “For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second. For he finds fault with them when he says: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.” Hebrews 9:15-17 “Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.” John 16:16 “The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached.” Matthew 5:39 “You have heard it said an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth but I tell you do not resist an evil person.” There are other verses I could quote but I am afraid you are tired of reading, but it clear from the verse above that the O.T. cannot be used to prove “Just War.”

All of this does not say that I would remain still and allow an innocent person to be harmed. The correct response for a Christian is to try and prevent any harm to the victim but do no harm. As lambs and doves are pictures of the Christian we can only be non-violent. As far as approving of other fighting I can only direct them to teaching of Christ. Each of us will stand alone before the Great Judge. You are not disagreeing with me you are disagreeing with Scripture. I do not portray myself as holy I am only repeating what the Bible says. Doesn’t the Bible tell us to not lean on our own understanding? And if you try and use the O.T. in your defense before God you will not have a leg to stand on. Luke 9:56 “For the Son of Man didn't come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.”

What governments and nations do has no bearing on the subject, they are of this world, Christians are subjects of God and subject to Him only. All of government and the laws of men are the products of rebellion and independence from God and anyone who puts themselves under those governments will suffer the same consequences as that government. Christians have only One Master and King.

I would like other people to reply to this, to make sure I'm not missing something, because I have asked over and over again what would you as a Christian do in that situation, and no matter the length of all of your replies, you have still not provided a single direct answer. What does "being like a dove" mean when people are being hacked to death in front of you? What does "try and prevent any harm" mean when people are literally being beheaded in front of you for their faith? Ask them to stop?

I assume you are not Catholic, but even Pope Francis said he would punch someone who insulted his mother.

And yes, the struggle of Christian peoples and nations to stand up against horrific oppression is exactly the whole point of this thread. To dismiss the centuries, sometimes millennia-long struggles of these peoples, many who have given and sacrificed all for their faith and fellow man, as the business "of this world," as if it's not an intensely Christian matter...is something I do not agree with, to put it mildly.

It seems in your worldview, or what you are trying to present as the teachings of Jesus, in theory every single last Christian can be wiped off the face of the planet, and that's ok, just as long as they don't engage in any violence to save themselves or others?

Jason_apostle · Sep 10, 2017

when God situates his throne from heaven to earth all wars will stop. when heaven is on earth.

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

revelation 17
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

SteveIndy · Sep 10, 2017

HighwayMan said:
I would like other people to reply to this, to make sure I'm not missing something, because I have asked over and over again what would you as a Christian do in that situation, and no matter the length of all of your replies, you have still not provided a single direct answer. What does "being like a dove" mean when people are being hacked to death in front of you? What does "try and prevent any harm" mean when people are literally being beheaded in front of you for their faith? Ask them to stop?

I assume you are not Catholic, but even Pope Francis said he would punch someone who insulted his mother.

And yes, the struggle of Christian peoples and nations to stand up against horrific oppression is exactly the whole point of this thread. To dismiss the centuries, sometimes millennia-long struggles of these peoples, many who have given and sacrificed all for their faith and fellow man, as the business "of this world," as if it's not an intensely Christian matter...is something I do not agree with, to put it mildly.

It seems in your worldview, or what you are trying to present as the teachings of Jesus, in theory every single last Christian can be wiped off the face of the planet, and that's ok, just as long as they don't engage in any violence to save themselves or others?

I did answer your question, "Just War is not acceptable nor is the violent response against any enemy acceptable according to the N.T. It does not matter how I personally might respond, it only matters what the Bible says and the example of Christ, His Apostles, and how the primitive Church understood their teaching." The Catholic Church and the Protestant Church attempted to do just that, eliminate every true believer from the face of the earth. The Catholics tried that during the Dark Ages and again during the time of the Anabaptist who disagreed with Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin. The Anabaptist revived true Christianity and the kingdom of darkness rejected it and them. They were killed, tortured, and their land was stolen and they never resisted, just like our Lord, His Apostles, and very many during the first three hundred years of the primitive Church. True Christianity has always been a little flock and persecuted. All of this is easily read in the history books. Non-resistance to evil was the original belief of the Church Jesus gave birth to. In the near future, there will arise again a terrible persecution against true believers. Augustine and Constantine preached another Gospel for their own benefit and that new belief has come down to us in the form of "Just War" but it is a lie.

1213 · Sep 13, 2017

HighwayMan said:
... Only God can do that in his heavenly realm. What matters is what we do when we are called upon to act. Will we defend these people by all means necessary, or allow for them to be massacred in fear that any action will only make matters worse?...

Evil cannot be won by becoming evil.

Biblical teaching is that we should not revenge.

Don't seek revenge yourselves, beloved, but give place to God's wrath. For it is written, "Vengeance belongs to me; I will repay, says the Lord." Therefore "If your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he is thirsty, give him a drink. For in doing so, you will heap coals of fire on his head." Don't be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Romans 12:19-21

…love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45

HighwayMan · Sep 13, 2017

1213 said:
Evil cannot be won by becoming evil.

Biblical teaching is that we should not revenge.

Don't seek revenge yourselves, beloved, but give place to God's wrath. For it is written, "Vengeance belongs to me; I will repay, says the Lord." Therefore "If your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he is thirsty, give him a drink. For in doing so, you will heap coals of fire on his head." Don't be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Romans 12:19-21

…love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45

Who said anything about revenge? I'm asking about saving populations that are being massacred. Defending people is not "evil."

It seems that many Christians are willing to turn their back and not hear the pleas or the concerns or the stories of their brothers and sisters in chains. I would not be surprised either if many of these same Christians voted for Trump and/or support his anti-refugee policies.

SteveIndy · Sep 13, 2017

HighwayMan said:
Who said anything about revenge? I'm asking about saving populations that are being massacred. Defending people is not "evil."

It seems that many Christians are willing to turn their back and not hear the pleas or the concerns or the stories of their brothers and sisters in chains. I would not be surprised either if many of these same Christians voted for Trump and/or support his anti-refugee policies.

You so easily look right past the words of God so that you can justify your own actions. You are not talking about saving anyone you are talking about rebellion. God has written His word, explained, and exemplified it by sending His own Son, and you have rejected it. You are not looking for an answer you're just wanting to argue. You keep appealing to your feelings and you have received answers from Scripture, end of conversation.

HighwayMan · Sep 13, 2017

SteveIndy said:
You so easily look right past the words of God so that you can justify your own actions. You are not talking about saving anyone you are talking about rebellion. God has written His word, explained, and exemplified it by sending His own Son, and you have rejected it. You are not looking for an answer you're just wanting to argue. You keep appealing to your feelings and you have received answers from Scripture, end of conversation.

Absolutely nowhere do I say a single word about "revenge," "rebellion," or anything even remotely connected to that. Ever.

And if every single last Christian is dead and buried, who exactly will be proclaiming Scripture then? Where exactly will church be? Is this not pleading for the Apocalypse?

And the Trump question goes unanswered.

Sammy-San · Sep 13, 2017

thecolorsblend said:
I see no real indication that Our Lord is morally opposed to war full-stop. My guess is He doesn't think it's ideal... but if the alternative is, oh I dunno, a horde of fanatical Moslems invading your country, raping your women and subjugating your children, He might not mind armed resistance.

One of the most horrible aspects of war IMO is people killing conscripted soldiers.

thecolorsblend · Sep 13, 2017

Superhero Sam said:
One of the most horrible aspects of war IMO is people killing conscripted soldiers.

Really? Because I think something far worse is raping the women of whichever side loses. At least the soldiers can fight back in a meaningful way.

Sammy-San · Sep 14, 2017

thecolorsblend said:
Really? Because I think something far worse is raping the women of whichever side loses. At least the soldiers can fight back in a meaningful way.

It's not even they are defending themselves or in confrontations where people fight and may die-its the idea they are deliberately killing other people so they get their goal.

Phantasman · Sep 14, 2017

HighwayMan said:
I read a very interesting essay whose conclusions I strongly disagree with by humanitarian aid group Doctors Without Borders, essentially going against the "just war" idea: Not In Our Name: Why MSF Does Not Support the "Responsibility to Protect"

To summarize, they contest that in almost no case is it ever acceptable to send military aid for people whose lives are in danger at the hands of terrorists/hostile forces.

The article breaks down many of the complexities, and points out how there is often corruption and ill intent in countries sending military aid; how often times it only makes the regional conflict worse; how it does not improve the situation in the long-term - all fine points, but in my view they speak from a humanistic perspective, one that believes that mankind can eventually fix itself.

Would Christians agree that Jesus Christ would approve of "just war," in the proper context? Is it not mankind's responsibility to act and help defend victims from their oppressors in the here and now? With all due respect to MSF and all the work they do, suggesting that people stand on the side and only help with relief (which is important, but by no means sufficient) rather than go and fight to save people? Jesus said turn the other cheek, but not stand by giving aid packets as children, women and men are slaughtered at your feet.

Would you not shoot down an attacker who is literally about to rape and kill a family? Or an army of such attackers? Look at what's happening to all the Christians in the Middle East, and other minorities. How do we not raise up arms to save them?

Nothing will solve the complexities of this world. The world will never achieve perfect peace and harmony. Only God can do that in his heavenly realm. What matters is what we do when we are called upon to act. Will we defend these people by all means necessary, or allow for them to be massacred in fear that any action will only make matters worse?

Again, while I respect some of MSF's programs and work, it seems that they are ignoring the very immediate and unavoidable necessity of military aid. When people's lives are on the line, those with the means to help must do so.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing, it has been said.

Jesus was quite clear in all three synoptics:

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it."

Spiritual gnosis teaches the same:

The Lord answered and said, "Verily, I say unto you, none will be saved unless they believe in my cross. But those who have believed in my cross, theirs is the kingdom of God. Therefore, become seekers for death, like the dead who seek for life; for that which they seek is revealed to them. And what is there to trouble them? As for you, when you examine death, it will teach you election. Verily, I say unto you, none of those who fear death will be saved; for the kingdom belongs to those who put themselves to death. Become better than I; make yourselves like the son of the Holy Spirit!"

Christians do not fear death, they embrace it, as the savior did.

thecolorsblend · Sep 14, 2017

HighwayMan said:
To summarize, they contest that in almost no case is it ever acceptable to send military aid for people whose lives are in danger at the hands of terrorists/hostile forces.

It's a sentiment I tend to agree with. At the risk of siding with Not In Our Name (an otherwise useless, self-congratulating group), they have a point. I'm at a loss to think of a conflict with which my country, America, has intervened that had a positive outcome for all parties involved, including America itself.

In the great majority of cases, more are dead or wounded than would've been otherwise and frequently it leads to even bigger problems in the distant or even near future.

1213 · Sep 14, 2017

HighwayMan said:
...Defending people is not "evil."...

I agree with that, if the defending is not done by any evil means.

HighwayMan · Sep 14, 2017

Phantasman said:
Jesus was quite clear in all three synoptics:

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it."

Spiritual gnosis teaches the same:

The Lord answered and said, "Verily, I say unto you, none will be saved unless they believe in my cross. But those who have believed in my cross, theirs is the kingdom of God. Therefore, become seekers for death, like the dead who seek for life; for that which they seek is revealed to them. And what is there to trouble them? As for you, when you examine death, it will teach you election. Verily, I say unto you, none of those who fear death will be saved; for the kingdom belongs to those who put themselves to death. Become better than I; make yourselves like the son of the Holy Spirit!"

Christians do not fear death, they embrace it, as the savior did.

Right, so if your family was being butchered in front of you, you would tell police officers "no please don't use violence" to stop the attackers, you would embrace your death and the death of your family "as Jesus" did?

I don't believe a single rational person would ever do that. That sounds more like the mindset of a suicidal death cult than a living faith.

HighwayMan · Sep 14, 2017

thecolorsblend said:
It's a sentiment I tend to agree with. At the risk of siding with Not In Our Name (an otherwise useless, self-congratulating group), they have a point. I'm at a loss to think of a conflict with which my country, America, has intervened that had a positive outcome for all parties involved, including America itself.

In the great majority of cases, more are dead or wounded than would've been otherwise and frequently it leads to even bigger problems in the distant or even near future.

But my point is that that shouldn't be the point. Yes, conflicts today are very complicated and intervention isn't going to solve everything in the long term. However, that absolutely does not excuse the current Western mindset of just sitting back and letting innocent people get slaughtered, or more correctly offering a minimal helping hand. It seems to be used more of an excuse "oh it's too complicated" from the secular mindset, or "oh this Bible verse hear speaks against violence" so that people can stop worrying about it and go back to their coffee and regular lives.

Regardless of where you think the Bible stands on just war, even if you think force should never be used - it most definitely does not justify Western Christians sitting in the comforts and safety of their homes, which is what's happening, while their brothers and sisters in the East are being slaughtered.

thecolorsblend · Sep 14, 2017

HighwayMan said:
But my point is that that shouldn't be the point. Yes, conflicts today are very complicated and intervention isn't going to solve everything in the long term. However, that absolutely does not excuse the current Western mindset of just sitting back and letting innocent people get slaughtered, or more correctly offering a minimal helping hand. It seems to be used more of an excuse "oh it's too complicated" from the secular mindset, or "oh this Bible verse hear speaks against violence" so that people can stop worrying about it and go back to their coffee and regular lives.

Regardless of where you think the Bible stands on just war, even if you think force should never be used - it most definitely does not justify Western Christians sitting in the comforts and safety of their homes, which is what's happening, while their brothers and sisters in the East are being slaughtered.

I don't see how interventionism has been helpful. The US has been guided by those types of neocon foreign policies for almost twenty years (at the least) and the Middle East is probably worse off than it was before. America's intervention has cost, what, a trillion dollars, we're still engaged in conflict over there doing who knows what for who knows why.

If somebody asks for America's help (or anybody's help), I guess that's one thing. But unless I've missed something, nobody in Iraq asked that their home be destroyed by American smart bombs.

Basil the Great · Sep 14, 2017

I have changed my view somewhat about this subject. It seems that fighting against genocide is certainly justifiable. Other than that, I would say it is questionable at best. This is a complicated issue and there are no easy answers. The Old Testament is loaded with wars and violence, but Jesus taught us to love our enemies and to turn the other cheek. Still, what he exactly meant by that is uncertain. I do shake my head when I think back to the American War of Independence, as that seems to be the least justifiable of all the wars fought by the United States. I like what St. Basil taught and that is why I use his name in Christian Forums. He taught that fighting for one's country is not the same as murder. However, he also recommended that those who do fight in wars for the State should spend a period of time afterwards before partaking of the Eucharist (and by implication confessing it would seem). He actually recommended a period of three years, which does seem just a wee bit strict. St. Basil's explanation for his recommendation is that it was handed down to him and others by those who came before that those who fight in war have unclean hands. Hence, it would appear that at least in the East, many or most Christians were taught that while perhaps it is necessary to fight for the State, such is still not in accordance with the teachings of Jesus and is therefore sinful.

football5680 · Sep 15, 2017

thecolorsblend said:
I don't see how interventionism has been helpful. The US has been guided by those types of neocon foreign policies for almost twenty years (at the least) and the Middle East is probably worse off than it was before. America's intervention has cost, what, a trillion dollars, we're still engaged in conflict over there doing who knows what for who knows why.

If somebody asks for America's help (or anybody's help), I guess that's one thing. But unless I've missed something, nobody in Iraq asked that their home be destroyed by American smart bombs.

I agree. Intervention has simply cost us many American lives and lots of money and we have very little to show for it. Saddam was not a nice guy but at least Iraq was stable under his rule and he didn't allow any terrorist groups to thrive. In Afghanistan, we have been fighting for 16 years and the Taliban are stronger now than they were when we first invaded. All intervention has done is create instability in the region and I just hope we have learned our lesson.

HighwayMan · Sep 15, 2017

Basil the Great said:
I have changed my view somewhat about this subject. It seems that fighting against genocide is certainly justifiable. Other than that, I would say it is questionable at best. This is a complicated issue and there are no easy answers. The Old Testament is loaded with wars and violence, but Jesus taught us to love our enemies and to turn the other cheek. Still, what he exactly meant by that is uncertain. I do shake my head when I think back to the American War of Independence, as that seems to be the least justifiable of all the wars fought by the United States. I like what St. Basil taught and that is why I use his name in Christian Forums. He taught that fighting for one's country is not the same as murder. However, he also recommended that those who do fight in wars for the State should spend a period of time afterwards before partaking of the Eucharist (and by implication confessing it would seem). He actually recommended a period of three years, which does seem just a wee bit strict. St. Basil's explanation for his recommendation is that it was handed down to him and others by those who came before that those who fight in war have unclean hands. Hence, it would appear that at least in the East, many or most Christians were taught that while perhaps it is necessary to fight for the State, such is still not in accordance with the teachings of Jesus and is therefore sinful.

Yes, and genocide is what is happening right now in the Middle East. Genocide is what happened in World War II; in the Ottoman Empire conquest of Eastern Europe; to name a few. I can not understand how any Christian justifies standing back in times like this.

And fighting those fights is immensely different than America's oil interests in Iraq, as some here are suggesting.

thecolorsblend · Sep 15, 2017

HighwayMan said:
Yes, and genocide is what is happening right now in the Middle East. Genocide is what happened in World War II; in the Ottoman Empire conquest of Eastern Europe; to name a few. I can not understand how any Christian justifies standing back in times like this.

Originally I thought I had said my piece in this thread and was just about ready to unsubscribe from it. But this comment intrigues me.

To be clear, your view is that Christians have a moral duty to fight genocide wherever they find it. Is that correct? Maybe not necessarily take up actual arms and weapons but to oppose and resist it through other means.

I'm not trying to put words into your mouth. Just asking if I'm interpreting you properly.

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