Is Jesus still suffering today?

[Fantine]

OK, I'm reading Come Be My Light, Mother Teresa's letters, and what strikes me so far is her identification with the crucified, suffering Jesus and the need of her sisters to immolate themselves to quench His thirst and alleviate His suffering.

The idea that Jesus is still suffering the tortures of Crucifixion today is very strange to me. I had heard it once before, from someone on a message board who struck me as hysterical and unbalanced in most of her posts, but never from a saint....so I looked up information on the Sacred Heart, and Margaret Mary Alocque--it didn't mention the tortures of the Crucifixion.

One text said that in Jesus glory and suffering can and do co-exist, and it points to the meeting with the apostle Thomas and the wounds in Jesus' hands.

But I have always prayed to the glorified Jesus, realizing that His experiences while on earth are still with Him as memories, and as a strong influence, but not imagining Him suffering today to the extent that sweet self-sacrificing little nuns all over the world should try to alleviate His suffering...

Even the Mass is referred to as a "bloodless" offering.....I have never associated the Mass with Jesus re-living His suffering on the Cross....

It is a wonderful book, deep, rich, insightful, inspiring, but this image of Jesus' suffering continually is new and strange to me, and I would like to have your input.

 

[Rhamiel]

He is not suffering, but we can be joined to His suffering even though we are seperated from it by time, God transends time, this is also how I understand the eurcharist

 

[WarriorAngel]

He suffers still.

He is unlike humanity...
His suffering comes from the ungrateful, the disobediant, the blasphemous, and the unbelievers.

He has told Saints many times because of mankinds sins, He has pain. He has asked some to share those pains... One such Saint [I may have her name wrong] was St Clair [I think] who was given a cross in her heart to help Him, and to help amend the pain of His from unbelievers.

When she died, [and she complained of the pain in her heart] they found a crucifix in her heart.

She was also one of the Incorrupt Saints.

Jesus is beyond time.. and He feels the insults against Himself and His Mother.

WE must, since we love Him, stop offending Him.

So yea... Saints take on many penances to comfort our Lord.
You should read about them.

In fact, it is the Saints alone who comfort Him at all.

 

[WarriorAngel]

The accounts of saints’ bodies not decaying despite being buried for years continue to the present day. In her fascinating study The Incorruptibles (1977), Joan Carroll Cruz chronicles cases with the kind of credulous ‘objectivity’ for which Catholics are famous. The book abounds in amazing and gruesome details of preserved hearts, severed limbs, corpses that sit up and wink, and healing perfumes that seep from holy bones. She tells how the body of St Teresa of Avila didn’t rot even though it was buried in wet mud; and how the bodies of St Paschal Baylon, St Francis Xavier and St John of the Cross all remained fresh and intact despite being covered in sacks of quicklime for months. Cruz tells of Blessed Peter of Gubbio, a 14th century monk, and Venerable Maria Vela, a 17th century nun, whose voices were heard chanting with their brothers and sisters long after they were dead. St Clare of Montefalco, a holy nun from the 13th century, apparently declared to her sisters: “If you seek the cross of Christ, take my heart; there you will find the suffering Lord.” After her death, not only did her body remain incorrupt, but the sisters removed her heart and found, clearly imprinted on the cardiac tissue, figures representing a tiny crucifix complete with the five wounds of crucifixion.

http://www.forteantimes.com/features/articles/245/saints_preserve_us.html

I misspelled her name, it is St Clare.
I was using my memory...

 

[Fantine]

I was always told that our attempts to portray God as having human feelings, "God is angry!" "God is sorrowful," was because of our attempt to put a face on God and to understand Him.

True, Jesus took on human form, and while He was on earth had the same feelings that we do.

And true He rose into heaven with His body, but a "glorified" body--and that to me means "a body without baggage--emotional or otherwise...." No broken bones--no broken heart. Healed of everything from hangnails to hangups.

And so no, I do not think that if we sin we are driving nails deeper into His hands. And I do not think that if we do good we are helping Simon of Cyrene carry His cross. I think that Jesus has redeemed us--both those who lived before us and those as yet unborn--and even though doing good is paying honor to His sacrifice, and doing evil is bringing us further from His eternal vision, I don't think that either act affects Him emotionally or physically.

And so I could understand Mother Teresa telling her Missionaries that they should live a life of loving service to bring Jesus to others, or to honor His model, I find it somewhat incomprehensible that she tells them to quench His thirst or ease His pain....

And it seems sort of strange that she is perpetually focused on His crucifixion rather than His resurrection.....

Even though, as a human, Jesus shared our human experience, there were moments of great joy, fulfilling relationships, purpose.....

It says in the book that in her visions in 1946 and 1947 she saw the crucified Jesus...and that in her visions of Mary she saw Mary sitting at the cross.

 

[plainswolf]

I think that perhaps, He may in a mystical kind of way we can't quite understand. What loving parent is not hurt by the hateful actions of his child? Fantine did touch upon something though that reminds me of Purgatory - which they describe as a "joyful suffering". But in any case, when we sin we offend God's glory more than we can imagine. I once heard it said that if we could truly see how horrible sin is in the eyes of God, we would die of the sheer intensity of remorse and guilt.

God - Christ was innocence itself, infinitely more innocent than a new born baby. But imagine for a moment being condemned to death, and having some little child (innocence) offer to be 'tortured to death' so that you can live...Because he loves you so purely and innocently to a degree we cannot comprehend fully. Now imagine committing the same crimes over again that condemned you in the first place - even after that beautiful little child died horribly for love of us.. That's what we do when we commit a mortal sin. It may sound like a sick and disgusting analogy, but it's infinitely less disgusting and horrible than the offense against the innocence of God that we so often commit so carelessly.

 

[D'Ann]

That makes sense Mark. Thanks.

 

[Fish and Bread]

I have trouble intuitively understanding the concept of harming God in a physical or deep emotional way because of our sins. I always come back to "According to Christian theology, he created us and created the world and decided on what sort of things he'd consider to be sins, so why couldn't he have just instituted a less restrictive list of sins, or have created a world where it was easier to be a more moral person, or have created us with a slightly different nature less inclined to sin?". I hate to say it, but in a way it almost seems like if God is in pain because of our sin, he may be bringing it on himself to some extent, because he created both us and the world we live in, and decided on what was considered sin.

Also, there's a question of intent. Very few people sin with the intent to hurt God. They're just doing what they feel is best for them. Nailing a hand to a cross is such a proactive action intended to harm, whereas usually sin is not intending to harm God, it's just intended to help ourselves. I guess I've always struggled with the concept of sin and divine justice. There's something I'm just not understanding, I have a feeling. I read a lot of theology and somehow in my heart I just don't have a real understanding of these issues and where God would be coming from.

Then, too, I think "Geez, if he had offered me a bargain where he'd direct a good wife my way (I am extremely unlikely to marry for reasons beyond my control) in return for being a good Catholic (or whatever religion he'd favor), I'd probably do it. if my sins hurt him that much and he really wants to save me, why doesn't he just cut me a deal like that? Seems so simple.". And there a million other people in like situations where God could easily do something where they'd be faithful in exchange if he offered them a deal of some sort, including deals where the things he would offer would be perfectly morally licit. And yet he doesn't do it generally. What does that say about the nature of God? It's baffling to me.

 

[Fantine]

Thanks, Plainswolf, and Fish and Bread, for your helpful comments.

I am also convinced that "Footprints in the Sand" could have been written about Mother Teresa. There is no doubt that Jesus was with her every moment of her life, and that even she realized this even when she could not sense Him, but that when she felt abandoned there was only one set of footprints--His.

She wrote a lot about emptying herself, and having her Sisters and Brothers empty themselves--because God has no where to live in a soul that is "too full..."

But yet is it possible that in the act of 'losing her self (ego)' she lost the opportunity to have that 'relationship' with God? Can we dialogue with God, or have the I/Thou relationship, when there is no longer an "I" to contribute to the dialogue?

It is a very deep book, very spiritual. I am sure that everyone who reads it will be more convinced than ever that we had one of God's greatest saints in our midst.

I hope you all have the opportunity to read it soon and come back with some of your own impressions and insights...

 

[JoeV]

Maybe God is more angry than hurt because of our sin. Do we really have the ability to hurt God? I don't know, but I know that sin angers Him.

 

[Filia Mariae]

The short answer is yes, but not in the same way He suffered on the Cross or during His time on earth.

We discussed this in one of my classes, but I can't remember which one. When I get home from work I'll try to go through all my notebooks and find the notes on it.

 

[hawko]

I would say "Yes", that Jesus still suffers today because of all the sin in the world, and the failure of mankind to repent.

 

[MyLordIsMyLife]

I think our dear Lord still suffers...especially when people deny that He is divine and deviate from his ways of love...I believe that it is part of our role as brothers/sisters/children/lovers/disciples of Christ to comfort Him by not sinning and by adoring Him as our Lord, Savior and Liberator.

~O Beautiful Jesus, O Beloved Jesus, verily Thou art the giver of Life; be with us always we pray.~

 

[WarriorAngel]

I was always told that our attempts to portray God as having human feelings, "God is angry!" "God is sorrowful," was because of our attempt to put a face on God and to understand Him.

True, Jesus took on human form, and while He was on earth had the same feelings that we do.

And true He rose into heaven with His body, but a "glorified" body--and that to me means "a body without baggage--emotional or otherwise...." No broken bones--no broken heart. Healed of everything from hangnails to hangups.

And so no, I do not think that if we sin we are driving nails deeper into His hands. And I do not think that if we do good we are helping Simon of Cyrene carry His cross. I think that Jesus has redeemed us--both those who lived before us and those as yet unborn--and even though doing good is paying honor to His sacrifice, and doing evil is bringing us further from His eternal vision, I don't think that either act affects Him emotionally or physically.

And so I could understand Mother Teresa telling her Missionaries that they should live a life of loving service to bring Jesus to others, or to honor His model, I find it somewhat incomprehensible that she tells them to quench His thirst or ease His pain....

And it seems sort of strange that she is perpetually focused on His crucifixion rather than His resurrection.....

Even though, as a human, Jesus shared our human experience, there were moments of great joy, fulfilling relationships, purpose.....

It says in the book that in her visions in 1946 and 1947 she saw the crucified Jesus...and that in her visions of Mary she saw Mary sitting at the cross.

Well, the Bible shows us the Lord God made the flood because He grieved [remorseful, sad] that He made man.

Yet it was the Promise He made in Genesis 3;15 that caused Him to save Noah and his family.

Stigmatists have part of sharing and repentence to the Lord from the gross iniquities that mankind ensues upon Him.

And lastly, Jesus said to "Saul' [aka Paul] when He struck him down and blinded him...'Saul, why do you 'persecute ME.'..?

It grieved Jesus to see His Saints tortured and killed. None the less, they are reserved a special place in Heaven for being martyred.


If sins did not cause Him grief, the world would never be promised to end.
If the sins did not cause Him to anger and have wrath, we would not have hell.

Emotions are not just for humans...
Emotions are from God and of God because they emulate His Being.

They are real, they exist and they are unseen. Only an outward sign of them is visible but they remain intangible.

Also humanity has emotions because their Creator has emotions.

And God is the Essense of the MOST powerful of all emotions..HE IS LOVE.

 

[Fantine]

I think that sometimes our language skills are inadequate to describe God.

Of course they are. God is infinite. God can't be contained. God can't be pigeonholed.

Who told me that God didn't have emotions, but that describing God as having emotions were part of mankind's attempt to know Him?

Every single nun I had in grammar school in the 1950's and 1960's (and these were pre-Vatican II nuns.)

 

[ApollotheLizard]

Yes, He still suffers. We sin in such vast amounts that it saddens Him.

 

[WarriorAngel]

No one can describe God...as He is Essense and Being not tangible nor subject to description...
As per why He said 'I Am, Who Am.'
IE, He exists.

However; nuns said something similar in school..but they really do not know. Otherwise they know Him... RIght?
However; being that mankind cannot describe God, it only makes sense that when He created us we are in His image, emotions were included in the package.

Like I said, HE IS LOVE.

How do we say He is without emotions if He is the Epitome of Love?

Love is the greatest of all.

EVery 'calamity' came from God's wrath.

St Bosco said hell is a place souls would rather go than face His wrath.

He is emotions personified. He surpasses all our emotions, but again..we are made in His image, so our feelings came from Him and in that we have what He has in a smaller capacity.

Vengence is Mine He says...not for men.
Judgement is His, not man's.

IF He was not emotion ...then it would not exist I venture.
And if He was not emotion, then why does He speak in the Bible OF His emotions?

 

[WarriorAngel]

Yes, He still suffers. We sin in such vast amounts that it saddens Him.

The entire Bible is based on His emotions.

Wrath, Love, forgiveness, compassion, sorrow, pain, fear, vengence, anger....
ETC